I will add a section soon that will address Dealing with Bridge Positioning Obstacles and Cue Elevation.
Colin
Back Hand English (BHE) - Resource Thread
- Thread starter Colin Colenso
- Start date
I will add a section soon that will address Dealing with Bridge Positioning Obstacles and Cue Elevation.
Colin
yes, no problem
Thanks mate,
Yes, say I am forced into using a short bridge when wanting to apply right english, then I know my pivot will go a little right of where I want it to hit the CB, so I move my bridge a little to the right. This send the CB a little left, to compensate... and vice versa for when forced into a longer bridge.
I could attempt to create a formula for this, but I think feel based on experience works pretty well. You get to know how much the angle varies from straight as the pivot length increase and decreases. Some testing would tell you the angles, then you could do some trig to work out distance per foot, and then you'd get a head ache and miss the shot. It's normally a bridge shift of 1 or 2mm max, or basically, just aiming to the edge of a pocket, instead of straight at it. If already allowing for throw, you might have to aim to miss a pocket by a few inches in some circumstances with a forced short (likely a bit elevated) bridge.
Edited........
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I edited because at first I was wondering if this could be the same thing as CJ's first version of toi but I dont think it is the same is it?
He would talk about lining up just to the inside and aiming to the inside of the pocket and pivoting to the outside if necessary for position. He also talked about increasing the margin for error because he said even he was not good enough to hit the cueball exactly where he wanted to. Is what he taught related to the bhe and bridge placement stuff that you teach?
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I was having trouble with TOI at first. The instruction was to go the touch inside by moving the cue parallel & not pivoted to the inside.
I had beem playing with 'parallel' english for more than 40 yrs. at the time. So, I was a bit 'offended' when CJ suggested that I might not be going 'parallel' & gave me a private specific method to go 'parallel'.
I have been going 'parallel' for english but with the subconscious compensation for the off center hit in 'mind'. TOI does not want the compensation.
But, when pivoting back to center & beyond FROM the touch of inside the compensation for outside is there. I have been rather amazed at how well CJ's method works AND... one's eyes are already in position or very nearly for the new cue line.
This is part of what I PMd Cookie with along with how I sort of do an 'air sweep' from the center line when I go to the 'proper' 'parallel' line for english. Is that similar but reversed from what they are doing for that 'forum dreaded acronym'?
These are all interesting subjects that might be helpful to many in understanding what they may actually being doing right or wrong, IF we can keep the discussions peaceful.
Best 2 Ya.
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With TOI, the result will be a bit more than a touch of inside or in the other direction, a center ball hit and never TOO if your stroke is not straight. If this happens, it is unintended BHE assuming that the bridge was firm and didn't move.
TOI can impart some squirt to the CB sending it toward the outside of the intended aim line. This can be helpful on thick cuts for one can start by aiming the CCB at the contact point on the OB, parallel shifting to TOI and letting the squirt double the distance to the outside to the GB.
From TOI, one can "progress" to CP2CP aiming...but I digress. :smile:
Be well.
TOI can impart some squirt to the CB sending it toward the outside of the intended aim line. This can be helpful on thick cuts for one can start by aiming the CCB at the contact point on the OB, parallel shifting to TOI and letting the squirt double the distance to the outside to the GB.
From TOI, one can "progress" to CP2CP aiming...but I digress. :smile:
Be well.
No, CJ's TOI purposely adds squirt as an aiming tool while Colin's BHE methods are intended to remove squirt from the aiming equation. Opposite intentions.
pj
chgo
As PJ mentioned, different intentions with what CJ seems to be teaching, but his mention of pivoting to CCB and even a touch of outside can work to some degree in certain domains..... BUT
It will depend on distance from CB to OB, on shot speed, on cut angle and also on bridge length, so as a general principle it will hold quite a limited domain, but players will probably learn a few favored shots where it works for them with their natural bridge length.
On slowish fullish cuts, hitting with 1/4 or even 1/8 sliding inside results in massive thickening throw up to 4+ inches per yard. This varies considerably with speed and cut angle, but it is a zone I avoid playing unless I have to. Throw is more predictable and closer to standard rolling pots with 1 tip inside generally speaking, especially when hitting medium-firm to very hard.
Yes, lengthening the bridge will cancel out the greater swerve on the longer shots. But if you've got a LD cue and/or the shot is played slowly, the bridge length can become awkwardly long.
Try a long 1/4 cut with inside at medium-firm speed full table length, with OB say 1 foot from the pocket with 1 tip. CB will bounce back a table length. Alter the bridge length and use BHE until you find the length needed for that speed and travel distance.
Then hit some at slow-medium speed, say just bouncing 2-3 feet off the rail and work out how much longer the bridge needs to be. (I ircommend inside because throw variation won't taint the results as much as OE)
This will give you a pretty good idea of the adjustments and whether the bridge length becomes an issue for you.
Colin
P.S. Would love to go to Derby some day. Not sure lessons are my thing, but always willing to help those who are curious and serious about giving it a decent try.
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Shots to Practice Using BHE
These are some of the shot types that I commonly play using BHE that represent the strengths of BHE, which is when speed and a lot of english, inside english especially, is applied.
A lot of players avoid these shots, or tend to attempt them with less than 1/2 tip of inside. Once confident with your pivot point and the actual pivoting and stroking, these shots can become almost as consistent as rolling these balls in with follow.
Notice how they tend to bring the CB back through the middle of the table.
These are some of the shot types that I commonly play using BHE that represent the strengths of BHE, which is when speed and a lot of english, inside english especially, is applied.
A lot of players avoid these shots, or tend to attempt them with less than 1/2 tip of inside. Once confident with your pivot point and the actual pivoting and stroking, these shots can become almost as consistent as rolling these balls in with follow.
Notice how they tend to bring the CB back through the middle of the table.
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Thanks
That makes sense. I appoligize for bringing that up in this great thread, thats why I edited out my first post, but I really wanted to know if the two were related concepts.
Keep the good posts coming Colin.
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Outside English BHE Shots to Practice
Usually when applying Outside English I use near to gearing amounts, which is a small pivot from 1-5mm from 5 degree to 50+ degree cuts respectively, kind of following Dr.Dave's 40% rule, but I use about a 25% rule as I try to align each shot as a slight overcut, as it's the pot line with medium-firm natural follow.
If I need a bit more I aim to the close jaw, then pivot to how much I want. I avoid it on difficult pots because the throw variation is large for small tip variations.
I use wide pivoting much more with inside than I do for outside english, partly because of its unreliability but also because there aren't as many times where it presents a reasonable alternative, as a touch of gearing will usually suffice when wanting to move the CB around a couple of rails.
But here are a few shots to practice where I use speed with heavy outside english. Note that the throw isn't as extreme, in terms of widening the angle when played very firm with follow (draw less so as it's hard to hit low enough and get enough side), near maximum tip offset, but it's still significant, so aim to undercut (thick) on these shots. With some practice you'll see what I mean.... if you're at your pivot point.
Note: Notice that on these shots, a similar angle can be achieved hitting the CB a little lower with a touch of outside, which is why most times you don't need heavy outside. But in these cases, I need speed for CB travel, and the spin off the rails with heavy OE provides this on these shots.
Usually when applying Outside English I use near to gearing amounts, which is a small pivot from 1-5mm from 5 degree to 50+ degree cuts respectively, kind of following Dr.Dave's 40% rule, but I use about a 25% rule as I try to align each shot as a slight overcut, as it's the pot line with medium-firm natural follow.
If I need a bit more I aim to the close jaw, then pivot to how much I want. I avoid it on difficult pots because the throw variation is large for small tip variations.
I use wide pivoting much more with inside than I do for outside english, partly because of its unreliability but also because there aren't as many times where it presents a reasonable alternative, as a touch of gearing will usually suffice when wanting to move the CB around a couple of rails.
But here are a few shots to practice where I use speed with heavy outside english. Note that the throw isn't as extreme, in terms of widening the angle when played very firm with follow (draw less so as it's hard to hit low enough and get enough side), near maximum tip offset, but it's still significant, so aim to undercut (thick) on these shots. With some practice you'll see what I mean.... if you're at your pivot point.
Note: Notice that on these shots, a similar angle can be achieved hitting the CB a little lower with a touch of outside, which is why most times you don't need heavy outside. But in these cases, I need speed for CB travel, and the spin off the rails with heavy OE provides this on these shots.
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Goodey Colin,
Just for clarity sake, would you mind stating just what you mean when you say 'throw'?
I may be wrong but it seems the term has been used in more then one way.
I & I'm rather sure many know about SIT & CIT, as well as, CB deflection, squirt.
CJ had a couple of issues with terminology & was even 'attacked' for his nonconformity to the 'new fangled' terminology.
Thanks
Just for clarity sake, would you mind stating just what you mean when you say 'throw'?
I may be wrong but it seems the term has been used in more then one way.
I & I'm rather sure many know about SIT & CIT, as well as, CB deflection, squirt.
CJ had a couple of issues with terminology & was even 'attacked' for his nonconformity to the 'new fangled' terminology.
Thanks
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CTE and BHE - Some Comments
BHE, or Aim & Pivot, is not an aiming system. I put it in this section as it's likely to stay within sight and won't annoy the majority who aren't interested in technical discussions.
BHE is more accurately a squirt cancellation system, with adjustments for swerve and sometimes throw.
CTE is an aiming system, which intends to align a player to a slight overcut, such that firm stun shots go to center pocket.
Coincidentally, the aim that I base all of my aim adjustments on, because I believe it allows the least amount of necessary adjustments on a wide range of shots, is a medium-firm naturally rolling pot, which is also a slight overcut of about 1/2 inch per yard for 3/4 ball pot.... or thereabouts.
When on this aim, a firm stun shot takes almost the same line, though as the cut angle gets bigger, the stun needs to be hit harder, or it starts throwing the pot a bit thick.
That said, we rarely stun shots that are wider than 30 degrees unless they are pretty close to a pocket.
My main point here however, is to explain why BHE methods will work well with anyone who has a method of aiming that takes them to a slight overcut.
However, there may be issues in adapting to the bridge length (pivot point) requirements of BHE.
If anyone has an issue or wants to deepen this area of discussion, please take it to PMs or another thread and I'll be happy to edit this post if valid points are forthcoming.
Respectfully,
Colin
BHE, or Aim & Pivot, is not an aiming system. I put it in this section as it's likely to stay within sight and won't annoy the majority who aren't interested in technical discussions.
BHE is more accurately a squirt cancellation system, with adjustments for swerve and sometimes throw.
CTE is an aiming system, which intends to align a player to a slight overcut, such that firm stun shots go to center pocket.
Coincidentally, the aim that I base all of my aim adjustments on, because I believe it allows the least amount of necessary adjustments on a wide range of shots, is a medium-firm naturally rolling pot, which is also a slight overcut of about 1/2 inch per yard for 3/4 ball pot.... or thereabouts.
When on this aim, a firm stun shot takes almost the same line, though as the cut angle gets bigger, the stun needs to be hit harder, or it starts throwing the pot a bit thick.
That said, we rarely stun shots that are wider than 30 degrees unless they are pretty close to a pocket.
My main point here however, is to explain why BHE methods will work well with anyone who has a method of aiming that takes them to a slight overcut.
However, there may be issues in adapting to the bridge length (pivot point) requirements of BHE.
If anyone has an issue or wants to deepen this area of discussion, please take it to PMs or another thread and I'll be happy to edit this post if valid points are forthcoming.
Respectfully,
Colin
No problem Rick.
Throw is the frictional pushing of the CB onto an OB which is basically a function of the surface characteristics of the balls and the relative speeds they cross each other. SIT and CIT are really part of a continuum, and a handy way for people to get a grasp of both aspects, which are usually acting in combination, for a net effect. The terms SIT and CIT are largely redundant imho, hence I just use the term throw, and specifically as it relates to its vector aspect left and right on the horizontal plane. Throw on a draw shot actually pushes it upward and gives it some roll spin, but there's little reason to discuss that.
An unfortunate coincidence is that in the UK billiard world, the term throw has been used to mean squirt, or cue ball deflection. I prefer and use the US terminology, which tends to confuse people in my neck of the woods.
Then again, they're easily confused. They don't have a name for throw in the US sense, nor terms for outside and inside english, usually confusing those terms with check and running... the effect a CB has off a rail.
Colin
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How Traditional Shooters Can Benefit from Some BHE Knowledge
I think there are several good reasons why players who may never adapt BHE, could benefit significantly by having a good understanding of how it can be used.
I'll expand upon this at a latter date in this post... just a few headlines as I gather my thoughts more clearly.
1. Increase Error Margin on Straightish Shots.
2. Increase Error Margin on Inside English Shots.
3. Knowing What Shots to Avoid.
4. Knowing the Cause of Errors.
5. Awareness of Pre-Aligment.
6. Knowledge of Aiming Requirements and Various Effects.
7. Know pros and cons of soft v hard shots.
8. Learn some benefits of extreme english and how to gain advantage by it.
9. Option to use pivot checking of aim on some shots.
10. Other general benefits of familiarity with pivot points.
11. Use a pivot to test table cloth speed in one test shot.
Time for bed and a big day at work tomorrow. Will expand on these concepts over the weekend.
I think there are several good reasons why players who may never adapt BHE, could benefit significantly by having a good understanding of how it can be used.
I'll expand upon this at a latter date in this post... just a few headlines as I gather my thoughts more clearly.
1. Increase Error Margin on Straightish Shots.
2. Increase Error Margin on Inside English Shots.
3. Knowing What Shots to Avoid.
4. Knowing the Cause of Errors.
5. Awareness of Pre-Aligment.
6. Knowledge of Aiming Requirements and Various Effects.
7. Know pros and cons of soft v hard shots.
8. Learn some benefits of extreme english and how to gain advantage by it.
9. Option to use pivot checking of aim on some shots.
10. Other general benefits of familiarity with pivot points.
11. Use a pivot to test table cloth speed in one test shot.
Time for bed and a big day at work tomorrow. Will expand on these concepts over the weekend.
Thanks,
I thought that was a good idea to just be clear.
I, like you, don't really break down the individual spin & collision components much, except maybe for combinations I sometimes think of them individually. I am only 'concerned' with the net outcome of the throws.
Before coming on AZB, I Then & still do consider the net outcome to be a push forward or a pull back to me from my perspective. I once said on here, 'it would push' & I was almost immediately taken to the guillotine.
Thanks again for the clarifications.
Cheers.
Colin,
Thanks for all the shot diagrams.
I'll work on these. Should be fun and educational.
John
Thanks for all the shot diagrams.
I'll work on these. Should be fun and educational.
John