Back Hand English (BHE) - Resource Thread

[ENGLISH!]

Rick,
That graph was a key to predicting the pivot points for swerves of all lengths and speeds. The one you posted. Long and slow needs about 8 inches extra pivot length. Long and firm 2 or 3 inches. 2 foot and slow, an inch or two, 3-4 feet and medium speed, about 3 inches.

You can actually measure half a dozen reference shots on your own table to act as a guide. Would take about 20 mins and you'd have a chart for that cue and those playing conditions.

If you do it often, you can guess within a inch or two, the required effective pivot point for any speed and distance from CB to OB, which is as accurate, perhaps more so, I believe, that guessing the offset using parallel and aiming away from the target to guess the squirt and swerve combination.

And one significant difference is that if you align parallel, but are several inches away from the effective pivot point, then if you hit more or less tip offset than intended, you'll have extra variability. So my method is largely independent of how much tip offset I apply. At least, that's what my testing indicates.

That's one pretty significant variable to be able to take out of the equation. When you get down on the shot and realize you want more english than originally aligned for, you don't need to reposition the bridge, just pivot wider or narrower.

Hope that makes sense.

Try a 6 foot fine cut with OB near the pocket. Played at a slow-medium speed, keeping the speed constant and adjusting the bridge until you're making it with near max offset, using aim and pivot method. You'll be bridging around 16 inches, depending on your cue and table and your speed of shot.

Once you get that shot working, pivoting from the same distance, try 1/4 tip pivot, 3/4 tip pivot etc and they should all work pretty well based on my testing.

Note, that with near max tip offset, you actually need to stroke the cue about 20% harder to get the same CB speed as with 1/2 tip offset. More of the cue's energy is transferred into spin. Keep this in mind when trying to achieve constant speed as it might lead one to think the lower tip offsets aren't being cancelled out to the same degree. Where in essence, you'd be comparing a slow-medium shot to a medium speed shot.

Colin

Colin,

I hear what you are saying & understand, but the thing to me is that I am not going to be playing on the same table with the same friction or in the same weather, temp & humidity, that affect swerve.

To me, & maybe it's just because I have been playing with even extreme off set for so long & in changing weather from morning to afternoon to night, but I just don't see a mechanical method being able to help ME much. I'd just rather rely on my HAMB subconscious.

I'm sure for some it might be a good rule of thumb type format.

It IS very interesting, but I doubt that it will be something that I will employ. That is not to say that others should not do so.

As always it's up to the individual.

Maybe if dementia kicks in & my subconscious goes haywire I'll need it then.:wink:

Keep up the good work. I''m sure this will become a good thing that may help some of those that are afraid of english to get involved with it as they will have something substantial from which to work.

Cheers.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Colin,

I hear what you are saying & understand, but the thing to me is that I am not going to be playing on the same table with the same friction or in the same weather, temp & humidity, that affect swerve.

To me, & maybe it's just because I have been playing with even extreme off set for so long & in changing weather from morning to afternoon to night, but I just don't see a mechanical method being able to help ME much. I'd just rather rely on my HAMB subconscious.

I'm sure for some it might be a good rule of thumb type format.

It IS very interesting, but I doubt that it will be something that I will employ. That is not to say that others should not do so.

As always it's up to the individual.

Maybe if dementia kicks in & my subconscious goes haywire I'll need it then.:wink:

Keep up the good work. I''m sure this will become a good thing that may help some of those that are afraid of english to get involved with it as they will have something substantial from which to work.

Cheers.

Rick,
Keep in mind that top pros rarely use english on soft long shots, and as I've posted earlier, over 90% of my BHE shots are within an inch of my pure pivot point, as I'm either hitting them firm or within a couple of feet of the OB.

So the squerve aspect is like a work on later, could be useful, phenomenon, not part of the basics, but people ask about the minutia, so I explain to my best knowledge how I deal with it when I have to.

The real key to BHE power is learning what shots you need zero or slight adjustments with, and then learning how to become good at using those side english shots for positional advantage. That is the starting point... swerve and throw adjustment mostly comes later on, as a bonus 10%, and they can be done via aim adjustments or bridge length adjustments or a combination of the two.

But in all, just experimenting with these aspects has taught me 5 times more than I ever could have understood about the relationships between bridge length, speed, tip offset, squirt, swerve and throw.

Where some learn a shot and wonder, if I stroke more to the left, or harder or softer, or lengthen my bridge, what will happen... I could now explain it in terms of all factors reasonably well, and predict the outcome with some accuracy, where as before, I was guessing, and I often guessed wrong and shook my head, had another drink and just tried to get on with pure straight cueing, because I could never have interpreted the variables with much more than guess work.

Colin

 

[ENGLISH!]

Rick,
Keep in mind that top pros rarely use english on soft long shots, and as I've posted earlier, over 90% of my BHE shots are within an inch of my pure pivot point, as I'm either hitting them firm or within a couple of feet of the OB.

So the squerve aspect is like a work on later, could be useful, phenomenon, not part of the basics, but people ask about the minutia, so I explain to my best knowledge how I deal with it when I have to.

The real key to BHE power is learning what shots you need zero or slight adjustments with, and then learning how to become good at using those side english shots for positional advantage. That is the starting point... swerve and squirt adjustment mostly comes later on, as a bonus 10%, and they can be done via aim adjustments of bridge length adjustments or a combination of the two.

But in all, just experimenting with these aspects has taught me 5 times more than I ever could have understood about the relationships between bridge length, speed, tip offset, squirt, swerve and throw.

Where some learn a shot and wonder, if I stroke more to the left, or harder or softer, or lengthen my bridge, what will happen... I could now explain it in terms of all factors reasonably well, and predict the outcome with some accuracy, where as before, I was guessing, and I often guessed wrong and shook my head, had another drink and just tried to get on with pure straight cueing, because I could never have interpreted the variables with much more than guess work.

Colin

Colin,

Good on Ya,

Whenever I miss a shot & don't know why, like, 'you idiot, you forgot about the....', I will not sleep well until I have either figured it out in my head or go back to the table & figure it out. When just hitting balls & I miss one of those I might attribute it to misalignment or a bad stroke or a lack of focus & will set it up & miss it again, that is when my brain starts to work & sure enough it was not misalignment or bad stroke but usually something else that I guess could be contributed to lack of focus but not how most would interpret lack of focus.

I think you probably know what I mean.

I thing this thread & what you are doing is great & as I said I think this might encourage those that have shied away form english to at least experiment with it & with good results will take their game a step up if not further.

I have not given it a lot of thought but as I may have mentioned a while back I am only using a pivot method when going for outside english off of the TOI base & have been rather surprised how well it works. That being the case I am usually hitting the ball on the firm side given the mind set of TOI keeping the swerve out of play. If I ever have to hit softly & using outside I revert back to my HAMB intuition.

You've intrigued me enough that I will have to find my cue's pivot point give it a try at least for a certain set of shots.

You have a good one. I have to get ready soon to pick up my Grandson & then a one pocket match tonight.

Cheers.

 

[Straightpool_99]

A good thread with excellent info by Colin!

I had a fun day playing with a house cue, using nothing but BHE. As mentioned I usually use paralell english, soft spin and not too much tip offset, quite a bit of center ball too. A very conservative, careful game. I'm not comfortable using bhe with my ld shafts, so I picked out a house cue with a decent tip. I quickly found the pivot point on the (ratty) house cue and didn't have to mark it, as it was quite a natural spot to bridge with this particular cue.

I tried shooting only firm shots with english, and a lot more offset than I'm used to. I ran into some slight problems, but overall it was a smooth transition from my usual way to BHE. I like that there is a bit less to worry about, just pivot and shoot! I normally play very well with paralell english but there is a bit of an insecure feeling when you figure out the correct compensation. Even though the ball goes every time (well, almost), the worry steals a bit of "mental energy" for lack of a better word. I guess it comes down to not being very naturally talented, and having to grind really hard to play well. The BHE gave me a feeling of what it must be like to have real talent... As a bonus, after playing like this for a while, it was easy to figure out how to play paralell english with the same cue.

I ran out a lot of racks that I probably wouldn't have even tried normally, shooting extreme stroke shots and getting out from nowhere. I was also aided by finally having figured out the proper 10 ball break so I was playing at the very maximum of what I'm capable. Of course I'm also playing the best I ever have, due to subtle adjustments to fundamentals etc. I have tried BHE many times before, but somehow it didn't work quite as well as now. Maybe it's because my brigde is better now, I don't know. I can't get used to using BHE with my ld-shafts, but I'm seriously considering buying a standard shaft and give it a real go...There might be hope for this (no longer a puppy) dog yet. Nationals is coming up, and I'm thinking about going this year if I can make the time. If I do, I'll probably be using BHE. Thank you Colin.

 

[Colin Colenso]

A good thread with excellent info by Colin!

I had a fun day playing with a house cue, using nothing but BHE. As mentioned I usually use paralell english, soft spin and not too much tip offset, quite a bit of center ball too. A very conservative, careful game. I'm not comfortable using bhe with my ld shafts, so I picked out a house cue with a decent tip. I quickly found the pivot point on the (ratty) house cue and didn't have to mark it, as it was quite a natural spot to bridge with this particular cue.

I tried shooting only firm shots with english, and a lot more offset than I'm used to. I ran into some slight problems, but overall it was a smooth transition from my usual way to BHE. I like that there is a bit less to worry about, just pivot and shoot! I normally play very well with paralell english but there is a bit of an insecure feeling when you figure out the correct compensation. Even though the ball goes every time (well, almost), the worry steals a bit of "mental energy" for lack of a better word. I guess it comes down to not being very naturally talented, and having to grind really hard to play well. The BHE gave me a feeling of what it must be like to have real talent... As a bonus, after playing like this for a while, it was easy to figure out how to play paralell english with the same cue.

I ran out a lot of racks that I probably wouldn't have even tried normally, shooting extreme stroke shots and getting out from nowhere. I was also aided by finally having figured out the proper 10 ball break so I was playing at the very maximum of what I'm capable. Of course I'm also playing the best I ever have, due to subtle adjustments to fundamentals etc. I have tried BHE many times before, but somehow it didn't work quite as well as now. Maybe it's because my brigde is better now, I don't know. I can't get used to using BHE with my ld-shafts, but I'm seriously considering buying a standard shaft and give it a real go...There might be hope for this (no longer a puppy) dog yet. Nationals is coming up, and I'm thinking about going this year if I can make the time. If I do, I'll probably be using BHE. Thank you Colin.

A big part of why I like it is that once I've set my bridge and pivoted, all I have to think about is speed and whether I want a little more or less english/draw/follow ... in my mind, I've already made... or perhaps missed the shot, but I can't change the result now, so free stroke it, worry free. And this carries into my CCB striking, because I have learned to trust my pre-alignment, be it accurate or not, then just free stroke the CB, bacause I've developed the habit of putting all my aiming effort into pre-alignment / bridge positioning.

And you're right that it's a handy way to start seeing the squirt line of an unfamiliar cue.

What was the pivot point on the rack cue? 9-10 inches? Was it 13mm?

Thanks for your review btw,

Colin

 

[Straightpool_99]

A big part of why I like it is that once I've set my bridge and pivoted, all I have to think about is speed and whether I want a little more or less english/draw/follow ... in my mind, I've already made... or perhaps missed the shot, but I can't change the result now, so free stroke it, worry free. And this carries into my CCB striking, because I have learned to trust my pre-alignment, be it accurate or not, then just free stroke the CB, bacause I've developed the habit of putting all my aiming effort into pre-alignment / bridge positioning.

And you're right that it's a handy way to start seeing the squirt line of an unfamiliar cue.

What was the pivot point on the rack cue? 9-10 inches? Was it 13mm?
Yes to both. I didn't measure, but that sounds about right.
Thanks for your review btw,
You are welcome
Colin

Tried a bit of snooker today with BHE. Had a bit more difficulty as I'm struggling with my new cue, which is a total dud. That's the problem with buying online, I guess. Still there is some promise to the method for snooker as well. We'll see.:smile:

 

[Pidge]

Tried a bit of snooker today with BHE. Had a bit more difficulty as I'm struggling with my new cue, which is a total dud. That's the problem with buying online, I guess. Still there is some promise to the method for snooker as well. We'll see.:smile:

The sheer size of the tables and the fact not many shots with side are hit that hard makes it all the more difficult. My cue especially has a pivot point really far back I need to play with a 6" extension attached to make it comfortable. I could see some benefits in snooker but I'm a firm believer of learning from experience when it comes to side in snooker.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Tried a bit of snooker today with BHE. Had a bit more difficulty as I'm struggling with my new cue, which is a total dud. That's the problem with buying online, I guess. Still there is some promise to the method for snooker as well. We'll see.:smile:

I use it a bit when playing on the snooker table, but as Pidge said, it's not a game where side is used as much as with smaller tables.

I've actually got a snooker table in my garage awaiting getting put together so I can play it more often and really test out my limits with BHE, which I think are limited mainly by one's potting ability.

Anyway, some shots to use BHE with on the snooker table:
1. Gearing english stun shots (3/4 to near full ball). Try bridging about 2 inches behind the pivot point and pivot slightly for a touch of gearing. The longer bridge protects a little against getting too much outside.
2. The break and long safeties. Getting heavy outside on the break helps get under the blue on the return. Try around 14 inch bridge and pivot 1+ tip and trial from there to try to find the effective pivot point. You may need to go longer on some slower safety up and downs when just nicking a fine shot with check for example.
3. Screw shots with reverse (straightish)... aim at inside pocket to allow for throw. Judd Trump actually plays this shot this way.
4. When low on a red going to black one rail with inside.
5. Potting blue coming in and out of baulk with side.
6. Follow with running (inside) 2 rails from black.

I think the pivot for gearing is the most valuable aspect. A lot of players pivot via a slight swipe on these, but doing it with an awareness of one's effective pivot point for any shot should give better consistency.

Colin

 

[336Robin]

Bhe

Colin,
Somewhere back in this thread I describe what I was doing and I was assuming it was FHE but I think I have been wrong.

I was asked by a fellow I was discussing this with who said:

If the ideal pivot point is used then wouldn't that in itself make the method BHE?

I believe it is and this erases all doubt as to what I was doing was BHE and not FHE as I once thought as I do use the ideal pivot point for the cue that I play with.

Do you concur with this evaluation?

 

[Colin Colenso]

Colin,
Somewhere back in this thread I describe what I was doing and I was assuming it was FHE but I think I have been wrong.

I was asked by a fellow I was discussing this with who said:

If the ideal pivot point is used then wouldn't that in itself make the method BHE?

I believe it is and this erases all doubt as to what I was doing was BHE and not FHE as I once thought as I do use the ideal pivot point for the cue that I play with.

Do you concur with this evaluation?

Robin,

One can use some degree of BHE, but to me, if the bridge pivot moves at all during the pivot, then it's not systematic BHE, just a kind of ball park partial BHE method.

Unless you provide a detailed description of what you are doing, that's as much as I can think of to illuminate the topic.

Cheers,
Colin

 

[336Robin]

systematic or not

Robin,

One can use some degree of BHE, but to me, if the bridge pivot moves at all during the pivot, then it's not systematic BHE, just a kind of ball park partial BHE method.

Unless you provide a detailed description of what you are doing, that's as much as I can think of to illuminate the topic.

Cheers,
Colin

Ok here goes,

I use the ideal bridge length for my cue. The cue I play with mostly is at 12inches. and that bridge is set down to address the cue ball and I am standing over the cue ball at center axis address.

What I do different from the way that Dr. Dave has it explained on YouTube is I do not wait until my bridge hand is on the cloth to assign a sideways cueing to the cue ball. I go into the shot with my cue already to the side, my bridge at center axis with my intention to aim the shot as if it were a center ball pot using the 12in pivot point.

I have noted that whenever a true pivot point is used that this is going to kick the butt end of the cue off line as the front end of the cue is not addressing the center axis of the cue ball. Therefore I think what I do should be called BHE.

I know you and I have talked about this before and discussed the ability to aim as if a center pot and also the allowances that can be made. However at the time I thought what I was doing was FHE and I am beginning to think perhaps not.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

If the ideal pivot point is used then wouldn't that in itself make the method BHE?

No, that's like saying if you make the shot you must be using the ghost ball method because the CB must end up in the ghost ball position.

Similarly, if you make a shot with side spin (and a non-swiping stroke), the pivot point must be on the stroke line or you'll miss - but that doesn't mean you "used BHE" to get there.

pj
chgo

 

[336Robin]

Tip off line/butt off line

No, that's like saying if you make the shot you must be using the ghost ball method because the CB must end up in the ghost ball position.

Similarly, if you make a shot with side spin (and a non-swiping stroke), the pivot point must be on the stroke line or you'll miss - but that doesn't mean you "used BHE" to get there.

pj
chgo

I understand your point Patrick. If you look at the post above your reply to me in this thread how do you disseminate that information. I think what I am doing here is BHE because of the fact that the butt and tip are off of the center axis by some margin. Im not sure that isn't the definition of bhe regardless.

 

[LAMas]

Ok here goes,

I use the ideal bridge length for my cue. The cue I play with mostly is at 12inches. and that bridge is set down to address the cue ball and I am standing over the cue ball at center axis address.

What I do different from the way that Dr. Dave has it explained on YouTube is I do not wait until my bridge hand is on the cloth to assign a sideways cueing to the cue ball. I go into the shot with my cue already to the side, my bridge at center axis with my intention to aim the shot as if it were a center ball pot using the 12in pivot point.

I have noted that whenever a true pivot point is used that this is going to kick the butt end of the cue off line as the front end of the cue is not addressing the center axis of the cue ball. Therefore I think what I do should be called BHE.

I know you and I have talked about this before and discussed the ability to aim as if a center pot and also the allowances that can be made. However at the time I thought what I was doing was FHE and I am beginning to think perhaps not.

BHE is a form of a pivot if the pivoting is done at the bridge on the table.

When applying the BHE the butt of the cue is moved toward or away from the hip which may require a stance adjustment.

Although CTE originally had a tip offset, I believe that CTE/Pro1 allows one to go directly into the shot without a pivot without an adjustment to one's stance.

It sounds like what you do.

Be well

 

[336Robin]

Spin Adjustments

]BHE is a form of a pivot if the pivoting is done at the bridge on the table

When applying the BHE the butt of the cue is moved toward or away from the hip which may require a stance adjustment.

Although CTE originally had a tip offset, I believe that CTE/Pro1 allows one to go directly into the shot without a pivot without an adjustment to one's stance.

It sounds like what you do.

Be well

The bolded above is what I am asking about and from that definition I am using a BHE type of adjustment on some of my shots. Im seeking verification.

I dont do an aiming pivot, never have but I do use the described bhe sideways adjustment with the cue when I decide to use that type of adjustment for English I just wanted to know and get some verification as to what to accurately call it. I use Parallel Applied English most of the time unless playing with a heavy shafted cue which produces more squirt than I like.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I think what I am doing here is BHE because of the fact that the butt and tip are off of the center axis by some margin.

The butt and tip are off the center axis by exactly the same amount no matter how you get there - or you'll miss the shot. BHE doesn't describe where you end up; it describes how you get there - if you don't place your bridge and then pivot, you're not using BHE.

pj
chgo

 

[ENGLISH!]

Robin,

If the V of the bridge is on the line for a center ball hit to pocket the ball & you move your back hand in either direction to get either inside or outside english on the CB & the V stays in place & if done at the length on the cue so that the angle basically negates the squirt, then that is what most would call BHE.

I think what you may be doing is what I do in that the cue is turned or rotated in a manner with the front hand & back hand going in different directions so that there is no defined 'pivot point' and the cue comes down on a line that we may perceive as parallel english but as PJ likes to point out, there is no such thing as parallel english, because the cue can not be truly parallel to the center hit shot line & still get the CB where it needs to be because of the squirt. That is unless that is the plan... to use the squirt to hit a certain portion of the ball NOT based on the center hit line for the shot as in TOI or TOO.

So... that 'sweep' is not BHE as most would describe it. To me, it is a combination of FHE & BHE but not really because the pivot section is sort of an array of points that is between the hands.

It's very much like the visual sweep in CTE but instead of to center cue ball it is to an offset from center cue ball. I don't remember if it was mohrt or Cookie that sort of confirmed that that is the sweep.

I hope this helps some & is not made it more confusing.

Best Wishes.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...there is no such thing as parallel english, because the cue can not be truly parallel to the center hit shot line & still get the CB where it needs to be because of the squirt. That is unless that is the plan... to use the squirt to hit a certain portion of the ball NOT based on the center hit line for the shot as in TOI or TOO.

You don't line up "parallel" using TOI either. The "center hit line for the shot" is the direction you want the CB to go, and you must line your cue up at the same angle to it no matter how you get there.

As I've pointed out to you before, TOI is just another description for doing the same old things. CTE users aren't the only ones with misunderstandings.

pj
chgo

 

[cookie man]

Robin,

If the V of the bridge is on the line for a center ball hit to pocket the ball & you move your back hand in either direction to get either inside or outside english on the CB & the V stays in place & if done at the length on the cue so that the angle basically negates the squirt, then that is what most would call BHE.

I think what you may be doing is what I do in that the cue is turned or rotated in a manner with the front hand & back hand going in different directions so that there is no defined 'pivot point' and the cue comes down on a line that we may perceive as parallel english but as PJ likes to point out, there is no such thing as parallel english, because the cue can not be truly parallel to the center hit shot line & still get the CB where it needs to be because of the squirt. That is unless that is the plan... to use the squirt to hit a certain portion of the ball NOT based on the center hit line for the shot as in TOI or TOO.

So... that 'sweep' is not BHE as most would describe it. To me, it a combination of FHE & BHE but not really because the pivot section is sort of an array of points that is between the hands.

It's very much like the visual sweep in CTE but instead of to center cue ball it is to an offset from center cue ball. I don't remember if it was mohrt or Cookie that sort of confirmed that that is the sweep.

I hope this helps some & is not made it more confusing.

Best Wishes.

You don't line up "parallel" using TOI either. The "center hit line for the shot" is the direction you want the CB to go, and you must line your cue up at the same angle to it no matter how you get there.

As I've pointed out to you before, TOI is just another description for doing the same old things. CTE users aren't the only ones with misunderstandings.

pj
chgo

I think I'll go get some popcorn. This could be an all nighter.

 

[ENGLISH!]

You don't line up "parallel" using TOI either. The "center hit line for the shot" is the direction you want the CB to go, and you must line your cue up at the same angle to it no matter how you get there.

As I've pointed out to you before, TOI is just another description for doing the same old things. CTE users aren't the only ones with misunderstandings.

pj
chgo

Who ever said that one lines up parallel.

One does not align to a center ball hit line that would pocket the ball & then shift parallel.

So... the parallel shift IS parallel to a different line.

IF... you understand, then you are just playing semantics with the word parallel & how YOU define it.

IF NOT, then you just don't understand.

I would say the odds are 50/50 either way.

Best Wishes.