Back Hand English (BHE) - Resource Thread

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
No, CJ's TOI purposely adds squirt as an aiming tool while Colin's BHE methods are intended to remove squirt from the aiming equation. Opposite intentions.

pj
chgo

I would just like to kindly & politely point out that the 1st. part of your 1st statement that I put in blue is incorrect.

In TOI the CB squirt has nothing to do with being 'an aiming 'tool''.

In TOI the CB squirt is a dynamic parameter that is used in the execution of a shot.

One's alignment or aim for TOI is done with the center of the CB to 'points' on the OB.

CB squirt is not an aiming tool for TOI.

Let's please NOT go into a TOI 'discussion' in Colin's BHE thread.
 
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Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Dynamic Parameters:

[snip Dueling Dictionaries response]
It was pretty clear you didn't know the meaning of that phrase before looking it up - do you know the meaning after looking it up? Have you realized yet that it describes every aiming factor?

I'm going to go with "no".

pj <- maybe if you look it up a couple more times...
chgo
 

Mr. Wilson

El Kabong
Gold Member
Silver Member
English, I hope you take this opportunity to heart.
You don't have to agree with anyone or anything said here but the expectation is that you are civil throughout the discussion.

I have instructed before that you need to add to the discussion rather than simply argue.
You seem to rebut what is said but don't offer your own theory.

Consider the options I have in answering the calls to check out your posts.
It might help you to select the content better.

Dave
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
English, I hope you take this opportunity to heart.
You don't have to agree with anyone or anything said here but the expectation is that you are civil throughout the discussion.

I have instructed before that you need to add to the discussion rather than simply argue.
You seem to rebut what is said but don't offer your own theory.

Consider the options I have in answering the calls to check out your posts.
It might help you to select the content better.

Dave

Dave,

Thanks for the opportunity & advice.

Could you kindly PM me with a specific example so I will better understand what is not allowed & perhaps be better able to better take your advise more to heart.

Thanks in advance,
Rick
 
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Colin Colenso

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Dear Rick and PJ,
I'm hoping that this thread will provide a convenient go to source for several years when people ask for more info. It would provide that service better without readers having to scroll through off topic discussions.

No blaming here, but could you both edit out various off topic posts with "..........."

Having done so, I will also replace the content of this post with on-topic info and diagrams. I still have quite a lot of information to add to this thread as time and ideas become available.

Thanks,
Colin
 

Colin Colenso

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Longer Bridging Option for Throw Cancelation

There are some shots where I often choose to execute them using a longer bridge length, hence longer pivot than the Effective or Squerve Pivot Point for a shot.

I'll provide a couple of examples.

In the first diagram, if I bridge at the Squerve Pivot Point, I need to aim to overcut due to the throw from slow-medium inside english. Generally I don't recommend lengthening the bridge beyond this as throw adjustment, but if you play a particular length and speed shot often enough, it can be a pretty efficient method to cancel out the throw effect.

On the 2nd shot, I'm using heavy outside english on a slow hit. The widening throw on these shots is horrific, around 5 inches per yard of travel.

If I use my squerve pivot point, I need to aim awkwardy wide of the pocket to allow for the throw. This can be hard to feel, so I usually extend the bridge to cancel out some of this throw, such that I can aim the shot at the near undercut jaw. With a bit of practice, you get a feel for how much to lengthen the bridge to make the aiming easier.

The reason I don't try total throw cancellation on this shot, is that the bridge length tends to become too long, especially as the distance between CB and OB decrease to about a foot, at which point you pretty much need to aim on the black line path and try to judge all of the widening throw by aim, rather than reduce it with a longer bridge and aiming closer to the pocket.

Please excuse my misuse of swerve instead of squerve in this diagram. It was a mental slip. Oh, and I know how to spell cancellation now. No spellcheck in Paint.
 

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ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
Dear Rick and PJ,
I'm hoping that this thread will provide a convenient go to source for several years when people ask for more info. It would provide that service better without readers having to scroll through off topic discussions.

No blaming here, but could you both edit out various off topic posts with "..........."

Having done so, I will also replace the content of this post with on-topic info and diagrams. I still have quite a lot of information to add to this thread as time and ideas become available.

Thanks,
Colin

Goodey Colin,

No problem & thanks for the suggestion.

You may have to wait a while for PJ. I don't know how long.

It was never my intention to 'derail' the thread. I even asked that 'we' not do it.

Cheers.
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
Colin,

When I think of BHE, I think of it being a method for compensating for the deflection/squirt that the CB does from the off center hit.

I do not think of it as a means to compensate for the potential swerve. The swerve is shot speed related along with table friction conditions.

You know what you're talking about, but a newbie to the subject may not & probably will not have much if any understanding.

Language is all that we have for which to communicate. I don't think 'cancellation' is an appropriate word in some instances.

I know you have given explanations along the way but simply selecting a point on the cue will not 'cancel' swerve as it is tip location & shot speed related.

I think this is a bit important for how one 'sees' things in their minds eye & could come into play when shooting through tight quarters with other balls very near the 'shoot line', or should I say 'shot path'.

Just trying to help & this too can go blank if & when you would like.

You may want to install a hot line. Perhaps I should have PMd you with this but parts of this might also be useful for newbies to read.

Cheers.

PS It might also be a good idea if you were to occasionally indicate/remind where on the cue ball is you tip placement. If hit on the equator with a level cue there will be 'no' swerve. If hit slightly above the equator with a slightly angled cue there will virtually be no swerve. Picture the ball that just spins in place for what seems like forever.
 
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Colin Colenso

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Colin,

When I think of BHE, I think of it being a method for compensating for the deflection/squirt that the CB does from the off center hit.

I do not think of it as a means to compensate for the potential swerve. The swerve is shot speed related along with table friction conditions.

You know what you're talking about, but a newbie to the subject may not & probably will not have much if any understanding.

Language is all that we have for which to communicate. I don't think 'cancellation' is an appropriate word in some instances.

I know you have given explanations along the way but simply selecting a point on the cue will not 'cancel' swerve as it is tip location & shot speed related.

I think this is a bit important for how one 'sees' things in their minds eye & could come into play when shooting through tight quarters with other balls very near the 'shoot line', or should I say 'shot path'.

Just trying to help & this too can go blank if & when you would like.

You may want to install a hot line. Perhaps I should have PMd you with this but parts of this might also be useful for newbies to read.

Cheers.

PS It might also be a good idea if you were to occasionally indicate/remind where on the cue ball is you tip placement. If hit on the equator with a level cue there will be 'no' swerve. If hit slightly above the equator with a slightly angled cue there will virtually be no swerve. Picture the ball that just spins in place for what seems like forever.
Hi Rick,
As far as I know, BHE was something used here and there but not clearly defined other than, line up as usual, then pivot for tip offset. Even accurately measuring pivot points has only been agreed upon in recent years, so the method is evolving. At least my own method is. I'm not familiar with others doing much work on it, though quite a few players use it on some of their preferred shots.

So the squerve pivot point is even a relatively newer concept, that is, where the pivot accounts for both the squirt and the swerve to hit the same point one initially aligns to through CCB.

This is a point where the cue pivots, which I refer to as one's bridge position, though, it could be a finger tip on a rail, or a bridge V for an open bridge or somewhere near the V in a loop bridge.

Where the cue tip strikes the ball is largely inconsequential in my systems. With increased offset, there is increased swerve, but the increased cue angle with offset basically cancels this out. Sounds weird, but it's close to true enough to make BHE as powerful as what it can be.

Swerve also changes for different conditions, hence the bridge length pivot must change. This comes down to a little experience and testing. You'd be surprised how little I actually adjust my bridge length when using it though. Usually my margins for error are large enough to not need to be too precise. On some swervier shots, I do put more thought into my bridge length though.

Although it sounds counter intuitive, it's those high almost parallel hit english shots that swerve earlier than low english shots and present the most difficulties. The overall swerve angle change is less, but it acts earlier, which puts the CB further off line before it reaches the OB.

I have speculated about bridge length adjustments for height of hit before, as seen on Dr. Dave's resource page, but am less convinced of it's necessity now. It doesn't produce as much variability as one might imagine. I do not adjust for it at all any more and it hasn't stopped any continuous improvement and refinement of my use of the system.

The latest concept is including throw compensation into the realm of bridge length compensation and this works well for some shots as I diagrammed a few posts back and in my recent thread on "How to use Pivot Point knowledge to increase error margins (on straightish shots): http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=405521

I think this area has good potential in making a lot of shots, or basically zones of shots, which introduce throw variation, with exactly the same aim, once one learns the appropriate pivoting length, such that they can hit a wide zone on the CB and still make the shot.

You might want to try out some shots to get clear grasp of how it works. Get your pivot point first, from the tests I outlined in the intro. Then try inside english medium to firm on half ball cuts, aligning as if you were potting with medium firm natural roll. Then pivot to various parts on the CB with inside, from high to low, a touch to extreme inside and there won't be much throw variation. The try the same shot from 5 feet away, but lengthen the bridge about 3 inches to account for the swerve, and you'll find a bridge length for any particular speed at that length that will allow a similar consistency.

Colin

[Added after re-reading your post] - The definition of a squerve, or effective pivot point is that it exactly cancels out both squirt and swerve. This point varies with speed and table conditions of course, but the entire goal is to find the point where it cancels out the swerve, regardless of whether you're hitting 1/8th tip or 1.5 tips left or right of the CCB. In pure physical terms, it's probably not exactly possible, but it is pretty darn close for practical purposes, but further experimentation might provide zones where adjustment is required for different amounts of tip offset, higher and lower as well perhaps. Obviously, with increased elevation, the squerve PP gets longer.
 
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Colin Colenso

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think this happens because when the CB is hit above and below the equator the same forces are happening as with hits left and right of center (squirt/deflection).......high hit will put immediate downward pressure into the bed of the table (digs in immediately) and low hits with causes upward forces (lift, the CB is riding on the peach fuzz of the cloth for a short distance before digging in).
I agree. The fix is usually to hit the CB no more than about 15% above CCB with english and let it pick up the natural roll, but that can be problematic when about 1 foot from the OB and hitting firm, when you need to hit higher to get the follow required. These can turn earlier than expected if you catch them a little too high. It can be dealt with, but worth being aware of for all who attempt high english. There's a kind of Goldilocks' sweet spot of just high enough to get the follow but not too high to get the unwanted early swerve.

Colin
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
Hi Rick,
As far as I know, BHE was something used here and there but not clearly defined other than, line up as usual, then pivot for tip offset. Even accurately measuring pivot points has only been agreed upon in recent years, so the method is evolving. At least my own method is. I'm not familiar with others doing much work on it, though quite a few players use it on some of their preferred shots.

So the squerve pivot point is even a relatively newer concept, that is, where the pivot accounts for both the squirt and the swerve to hit the same point one initially aligns to through CCB.

This is a point where the cue pivots, which I refer to as one's bridge position, though, it could be a finger tip on a rail, or a bridge V for an open bridge or somewhere near the V in a loop bridge.

Where the cue tip strikes the ball is largely inconsequential in my systems. With increased offset, there is increased swerve, but the increased cue angle with offset basically cancels this out. Sounds weird, but it's close to true enough to make BHE as powerful as what it can be.

Swerve also changes for different conditions, hence the bridge length pivot must change. This comes down to a little experience and testing. You'd be surprised how little I actually adjust my bridge length when using it though. Usually my margins for error are large enough to not need to be too precise. On some swervier shots, I do put more thought into my bridge length though.

Although it sounds counter intuitive, it's those high almost parallel hit english shots that swerve earlier than low english shots and present the most difficulties. The overall swerve angle change is less, but it acts earlier, which puts the CB further off line before it reaches the OB.

I have speculated about bridge length adjustments for height of hit before, as seen on Dr. Dave's resource page, but am less convinced of it's necessity now. It doesn't produce as much variability as one might imagine. I do not adjust for it at all any more and it hasn't stopped any continuous improvement and refinement of my use of the system.

The latest concept is including throw compensation into the realm of bridge length compensation and this works well for some shots as I diagrammed a few posts back and in my recent thread on "How to use Pivot Point knowledge to increase error margins (on straightish shots): http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=405521

I think this area has good potential in making a lot of shots, or basically zones of shots, which introduce throw variation, with exactly the same aim, once one learns the appropriate pivoting length, such that they can hit a wide zone on the CB and still make the shot.

You might want to try out some shots to get clear grasp of how it works. Get your pivot point first, from the tests I outlined in the intro. Then try inside english medium to firm on half ball cuts, aligning as if you were potting with medium firm natural roll. Then pivot to various parts on the CB with inside, from high to low, a touch to extreme inside and there won't be much throw variation. The try the same shot from 5 feet away, but lengthen the bridge about 3 inches to account for the swerve, and you'll find a bridge length for any particular speed at that length that will allow a similar consistency.

Colin

[Added after re-reading your post] - The definition of a squerve, or effective pivot point is that it exactly cancels out both squirt and swerve. This point varies with speed and table conditions of course, but the entire goal is to find the point where it cancels out the swerve, regardless of whether you're hitting 1/8th tip or 1.5 tips left or right of the CCB. In pure physical terms, it's probably not exactly possible, but it is pretty darn close for practical purposes, but further experimentation might provide zones where adjustment is required for different amounts of tip offset, higher and lower as well perhaps. Obviously, with increased elevation, the squerve PP gets longer.

Colin,

You said an Australian Crocodile Mouthful there. I'm glad I've only had two brews when I read it, but I think I got it all.

You understand what I meant & that the variables for swerve that come into play. Since I am more of a feel player with physics & am not that mechanical I don't readily see that one could consciously learn the pivot compensations for all of the different swerve variables, but I do believe that they exist.

If you could catalog the swerves into small groups & then suggest varied pivot points for each grouping, I think one would then have a base from which to then let the subconscious refine them within each grouping through experience.

Does that makes sense?

Cheers, I'm have another one.
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
I agree. The fix is usually to hit the CB no more than about 15% above CCB with english and let it pick up the natural roll, but that can be problematic when about 1 foot from the OB and hitting firm, when you need to hit higher to get the follow required. These can turn earlier than expected if you catch them a little too high. It can be dealt with, but worth being aware of for all who attempt high english. There's a kind of Goldilocks' sweet spot of just high enough to get the follow but not too high to get the unwanted early swerve.

Colin

Roger Long was of the opinion that high english had no squirt. I told him that is did but since the squirt is through the center of the CB it was not as much as when hitting lower on the ball & that the swerve straightened it out. He did not fully believe me until Dr. Dave proved it to him.

I shoot with high english very often but I don't use any mechanical method, I just hit them with 'parallel' & it has always worked well for me. Probably a lot of subconscious input on them.

Cheers.
 

Colin Colenso

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Colin,

You said an Australian Crocodile Mouthful there. I'm glad I've only had two brews when I read it, but I think I got it all.

You understand what I meant & that the variables for swerve that come into play. Since I am more of a feel player with physics & am not that mechanical I don't readily see that one could consciously learn the pivot compensations for all of the different swerve variables, but I do believe that they exist.

If you could catalog the swerves into small groups & then suggest varied pivot points for each grouping, I think one would then have a base from which to then let the subconscious refine them within each grouping through experience.

Does that makes sense?

Cheers, I'm have another one.
Rick,
That graph was a key to predicting the pivot points for swerves of all lengths and speeds. The one you posted. Long and slow needs about 8 inches extra pivot length. Long and firm 2 or 3 inches. 2 foot and slow, an inch or two, 3-4 feet and medium speed, about 3 inches.

You can actually measure half a dozen reference shots on your own table to act as a guide. Would take about 20 mins and you'd have a chart for that cue and those playing conditions.

If you do it often, you can guess within a inch or two, the required effective pivot point for any speed and distance from CB to OB, which is as accurate, perhaps more so, I believe, that guessing the offset using parallel and aiming away from the target to guess the squirt and swerve combination.

And one significant difference is that if you align parallel, but are several inches away from the effective pivot point, then if you hit more or less tip offset than intended, you'll have extra variability. So my method is largely independent of how much tip offset I apply. At least, that's what my testing indicates.

That's one pretty significant variable to be able to take out of the equation. When you get down on the shot and realize you want more english than originally aligned for, you don't need to reposition the bridge, just pivot wider or narrower.

Hope that makes sense.

Try a 6 foot fine cut with OB near the pocket. Played at a slow-medium speed, keeping the speed constant and adjusting the bridge until you're making it with near max offset, using aim and pivot method. You'll be bridging around 16 inches, depending on your cue and table and your speed of shot.

Once you get that shot working, pivoting from the same distance, try 1/4 tip pivot, 3/4 tip pivot etc and they should all work pretty well based on my testing.

Note, that with near max tip offset, you actually need to stroke the cue about 20% harder to get the same CB speed as with 1/2 tip offset. More of the cue's energy is transferred into spin. Keep this in mind when trying to achieve constant speed as it might lead one to think the lower tip offsets aren't being cancelled out to the same degree. Where in essence, you'd be comparing a slow-medium shot to a medium speed shot.

Colin
 
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SmoothStroke

Swim for the win.
Silver Member
Colin Colenso
Your work on BHE is fantastic.

Sincerely:SS

A user of BHE
Mr.Miagi say, swipe it on swipe it off
 
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