+1 Sooooo glad to learn there are others who understand the difference between an Aiming Method and an Aiming System...
Dale
Learn with an aiming system or not
- Thread starter Mike81
- Start date
+1 Sooooo glad to learn there are others who understand the difference between an Aiming Method and an Aiming System...
Dale
Having the "feel" is the greatest thing in pool IMO, aiming system is good as a fall back when you need that extra cushion in a tough situation and want to go for the shot. My only thing with what you said is that (a) you've only been playing for a short while, in a league and there are very experienced players there. Well many new comers tend to think of anyone who is making more balls than them 'more experienced" so i just hope you weren't making this mistake (b) you don't want to rush but want to advance as fast as possible. Another thing that i'm sure may "experienced" players here can say they see, everyone wants to be "like that guy" when they start playing and now want to put time in and see equal results like with a video game or some other sports like swinging a bat. Which brings me to (c) You want the best bang for you buck on the practice? well then make it about quality not quantity, having proper stroke mechanics and basic understand for the CB is what will help improve your skill level.
There first page had some good advice on it which i'm sure continued to the second page so i didn't bother reading it. Just remember it's a marathon not a sprint and you'll be surprised with the result.
There first page had some good advice on it which i'm sure continued to the second page so i didn't bother reading it. Just remember it's a marathon not a sprint and you'll be surprised with the result.
I wish that someone had taught me a good aiming system when I starting out. I would have loved to have been able to spend the hours learning more about the right moves than to be constantly aiming wrong without realizing it.
Now I am sure by now you have gotten the standard argument that stroke is more important than aiming. I disagree. Every player aims first and then strokes.
Anyway, now there are many great aiming methods that are objective and accurate.. So if I were starting now I'd want to learn them and have them as part of toolbox along with developing a great stroke and strategy library.
Let's make it simple.
Buy and use the ghost ball Aim Trainer.
If you are still missing a lot, you need to refine your stroke.
The stroke is the biggest part of this game.
The aiming is the easy part.
Buy and use the ghost ball Aim Trainer.
If you are still missing a lot, you need to refine your stroke.
The stroke is the biggest part of this game.
The aiming is the easy part.
If you don't have a straight stroke, and can't deliver the cue ball to the exact point you're in line with, you could have the most foolproof aiming system, and never make a ball.
Get a straight stroke first. Once you can consistently deliver the cue in a straight line, then learn how to aim. But one comes before the other.
And if you miss, how would you know why since your stroke is crooked?
Correct. Same thing I have said a thousand times. Aiming however is first. How do I know?
Because people tell beginners to aim here buy putting their finger on the rail in full expectation that by showing them that the shooter - no matter what their level - will be able to shoot the cue ball at that target.
A straight stroke when aimed wrong is equally useless.
Everyone - every player everywhere at every level AIMS FIRST, then they shoot.
Ergo....aiming is more important than stroking.
Or to put it another way....the person who can accurately aim but who has a poor stroke will still make a lot of shots by keeping the cueball on the shot line a decent amount of time but the person who consistently has trouble aiming but has a great stroke will likely miss a lot of shots that they SHOULD make when clutch situations happen and they are not sure of the aim.
The process is AIM - STROKE - SHOOT. Never happens in any other order.
Well, if you KNEW that the aiming was dead on then you could conclude that your misses were likely because of your stroke.
Here is a video for example where I demonstrate that even when the line is marked pocketing is not guaranteed due to stroke errors.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Vd0yHk8LMw
And a good tool for this is the Striking Line Set of templates at www.slaiming.com
Fully disagree. The aiming is a hard part and the stroke is a hard part. There are a LOT of hard parts to mastering pool.
It's precisely BECAUSE of people taking aiming for granted that players develop bad habits caused by the fact that they spend a lot of time on the stroke and not enough on the aiming and when they aim wrong they start to use a lot of body english to compensate for it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKCDjPgtCwE&t=515s
Yes. Most misses are due to bad stroke. And that includes applying english that does not bite because of bad stroke.
This whole matter of stroke vs esoteric aiming system has been settled a long time ago in my books.
Spend years learning an esoteric system or spend years perfecting the stroke? The dude who perfects his stroke will be the better player.
The best players in the world visualize the whole shot.
Seems like an awfully general statement. Nick Varner, who actually has a winning record in the Phiippines, told me that he never felt like he missed because of his stroke but instead when he aimed wrong.
Esoteric? Hardly. The idea of aiming "systems" for shots to a pocket isn't any different than the aiming systems for banking and kicking.
For those, like me, who had to look up esoteric, it means intended for or likely to understood by a small group of people. That's definitely not what modern aiming systems are for. They are intended to take a neglected part of the game and make it easier for people to learn by making it more objective with clear references.
No one jumped on Buddy Hall when he came out with his clock system...most likely because he wasn't on here promoting it. But the Clock System is in fact an objective way to figure where the cue ball will go when the shooter wants to use english (side spin).
Buddy Hall's Clock System https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ypc_peV3EWE
I agree with Mark Wilson and Jerry Breisath.
That is their professional opinion.
The point is that every system ASSUMES that the stroke is adequate. In effect a good stroke is OF COURSE mandatory to get the most of of any type of aiming system. The aiming system only puts you in the right space but it is your stroke which actually does the work to get the results you need.
The truth is that we amateurs don't KNOW how pros aim unless they tell us. And even then they might not be telling up what they do because they think what they really do gives them an edge that they don't want to reveal to other pros. So they may say something simple like they use Ghost Ball.
Some pros like Shane Van Boening have revealed that they use aiming systems. Shane uses a shaft system to aim with that he says he developed on his own. Given how much time he has in it's totally believable to me that he could discover an objective method of using fixed references to guide his aiming.
Why wouldn't I want to emulate Shane Van Boeing? I mean what's the worst that can happen by copying him diligently? Pretty much nothing bad can come of it for an amateur player trying to get better. Shane himself said he simply copied Bustamante and Earl. So if Shane says he uses an aiming system then why not try it?
Other pros use other methods like CTE and the same thing applies, nothing bad can happen by trying it and the reward might be gaining a solid objective aiming framework that fits in well with the development of a great stroke.
The truth is that we amateurs don't KNOW how pros aim unless they tell us. And even then they might not be telling up what they do because they think what they really do gives them an edge that they don't want to reveal to other pros. So they may say something simple like they use Ghost Ball.
Some pros like Shane Van Boening have revealed that they use aiming systems. Shane uses a shaft system to aim with that he says he developed on his own. Given how much time he has in it's totally believable to me that he could discover an objective method of using fixed references to guide his aiming.
Why wouldn't I want to emulate Shane Van Boeing? I mean what's the worst that can happen by copying him diligently? Pretty much nothing bad can come of it for an amateur player trying to get better. Shane himself said he simply copied Bustamante and Earl. So if Shane says he uses an aiming system then why not try it?
Other pros use other methods like CTE and the same thing applies, nothing bad can happen by trying it and the reward might be gaining a solid objective aiming framework that fits in well with the development of a great stroke.
And I agree with Nick Varner, an actual professional with world titles. I also agree with other professional players and professional instructors who have a differing opinion.
Point is that the process is ALWAYS....
AIM------>Practice Stroke------->Shoot
The stroke happens AFTER aiming. Always. At least for 99.99% of serious players per my experience.
Need more proof?
Well, how come we often see people get down on a shot and then get back up and take a new line? Because they didn't like the line the aimed at.
And often we see players using their cue to aim with, and they get down and squint and they walk around the shot, and they get in line with the object ball and pocket to find the contact point or somehow get a better read on the line. In other words they AIM first, then when they are as sure as they can be or the clock is running out the get down and shoot.
Aim then stroke.
Fixed that for you.
And the one who learns a great aiming system AND perfects his stroke will be better still.
No limit to doing both. it's not one or the other.
Puhleeeeze...
John..You are obsessed with finding a scientific explanation for everything pool related!..Truth is, Stan Shuffert or Buddy or Nick, or any other top player, cannot "teach" anyone how to aim, or learn the game of pool!..The combination of an accurate, repeatable stroke, and the speed with which it is delivered, can only be learned by HAMB..period!
When (or if) you ever realize this, will be the only way you will ever become the best player you can be!..Until then, you are just flapping your gums, and wearing out your typewriter!..That is why, in your 26,000 posts, you have convinced noone, (with common sense) that you know what you're talking about!..For God's sake man..give it up!
PS..Buddy's "clock system" has absolutely nothing to do with aiming, any more than CJ's endless chatter about 'TOI'!
John..You are obsessed with finding a scientific explanation for everything pool related!..Truth is, Stan Shuffert or Buddy or Nick, or any other top player, cannot "teach" anyone how to aim, or learn the game of pool!..The combination of an accurate, repeatable stroke, and the speed with which it is delivered, can only be learned by HAMB..period!
When (or if) you ever realize this, will be the only way you will ever become the best player you can be!..Until then, you are just flapping your gums, and wearing out your typewriter!..That is why, in your 26,000 posts, you have convinced noone, (with common sense) that you know what you're talking about!..For God's sake man..give it up!
PS..Buddy's "clock system" has absolutely nothing to do with aiming, any more than CJ's endless chatter about 'TOI'!
John..You are obsessed with finding a scientific explanation for everything pool related!..Truth is, Stan Shuffert or Buddy or Nick, or any other top player, cannot "teach" anyone how to aim, or learn the game of pool!..The combination of an accurate, repeatable stroke, and the speed with which it is delivered, can only be learned by HAMB..period!
When (or if) you ever realize this, will be the only way you will ever become the best player you can be!..Until then, you are just flapping your gums, and wearing out your typewriter!..That is why, in your 26,000 posts, you have convinced noone, (with common sense) that you know what you're talking about!..For God's sake man..give it up!
PS..Buddy's "clock system" has absolutely nothing to do with aiming, any more than CJ's endless chatter about 'TOI'!
What you say is true, there's no doubt about it.
I might add that all the instructors who teach an aiming system certainly have a vested interest. Teaching a system is like Chiropractic medicine. It keeps 'em coming back. :smile:
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Fixed that for you.
And the one who learns a great aiming system AND perfects his stroke will be better still.
No limit to doing both. it's not one or the other.
Hey John - you created a 51 minute video addressed to me, and then started a thread in the aiming forum called "Reply to Dan White's Questions." Well I'm trying to get my questions replied to but instead of engaging in some back and forth after I sat through 51 minutes of your video, you are over here recruiting.
I would simply like to ask you to take our conversation to its conclusion. Either you can answer the question or you can't. I'm still open to seeing what you have to say. My last post was #40 in that thread, following up on some things you had said, reproduced here for reference:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5799622&postcount=40
I agree with Nick Varner about HIS misses.
He did not say that about the amateurs.
You have an amateur who's been playing for a short while.
He does not need an esoteric aiming system.
He can stroke consistently straight through the aiming line/ghost ball center, he will be on his way to a much better player.
He certainly does not need to learn a system you have spent some decade+ already and STILL do not have a good grasp of. Something so complicated it needs multiple dvd's and books and lessons to learn.
Great aiming system? The greatest one should be the simplest one.
Joey may I ask you what qualifies you to speak for all amateurs? You're a great cue maker by all accounts. I make cases. Both of us are amateur players. Both of us have had the privilege of being around a lot of pro players over the years.
But of the two of us I think I am the one who has delved heavily into the aiming systems and you have simply been a critic as far as I can tell.
I don't even know if you actually play much pool. Sure you're around it and you have seen tons of pool but how much do you REALLY know about aiming systems outside of these forums?
How much do you play? Do you gamble? How many people have you had real life on-the-table discussions/sessions with going over aiming systems? Can you tell me how to do basic CTE, ProOne, 90/90, S.A.M., Samba, Shishkebab, Quarters, Mullen Method, Shane Van Boening's shaft aiming system, Shadows/Lights, Double-The-Distance, Aiming by The Numbers or any other "named" system other than Ghost Ball?
You keep using the word esoteric as some sort of denigration as if to say that any of these methods are so complicated that only a very few people will understand them. But in fact if any of them had been developed and brought into the game 50 years ago then you would likely be touting them over anything new developed today.
Once again, AIMING is what happens first. When any person picks up a cue for the first time and with no instruction whatsoever the first thing they do is TRY to aim that pool cue at the cue ball in the direction of the object ball.
STROKE is what happens second. AFTER the aiming is done the player strokes.
Both aspects of the game are important. One of them is not MORE important than the other. Both of them must be mastered to become a consistent player.
In the past 20 years since Hal Houle came on the scene and introduced us all to objective aiming through perception of fixed references the "genre" of aiming systems has matured into robust methods with clear instructions. They produce shot lines that are accurate and precise when used properly. Just as a PROPER stroke produces the cueball reaction desired.
I don't understand why people, like you, want to make this an either/or proposition. It's not. Learning how to aim with a higher degree of precision does not mean one should neglect the stroke. Nor is is true that one just automatically learns to aim by virtue of developing a great stroke. Nor is it that one can't learn to do both at the same time. In fact it's pretty much a prerequisite to have a decently straight stroke when learning to aim properly otherwise one does not know if misses are the result of bad aiming or bad stroking.
I don't understand why anyone who loves pool, especially someone who builds and sells pool cues, would do anything to prevent people from trying anything that could possibly help them get better. And when it comes to aiming systems there is ample evidence by very very very good players that they help with accuracy and consistency. And ample testimonials from amateurs who resisted the ongoing campaigns of negativity and criticism and tried and learned aiming systems who have reported great improvement in their ball pocketing accuracy.
So why do you persist in trying so hard to convince people not to learn aiming systems? Why not live and let live?