Learn with an aiming system or not

[BmoreMoney]

John..You are obsessed with finding a scientific explanation for everything pool related!..Truth is, Stan Shuffert or Buddy or Nick, or any other top player, cannot "teach" anyone how to aim, or learn the game of pool!..The combination of an accurate, repeatable stroke, and the speed with which it is delivered, can only be learned by HAMB..period!

When (or if) you ever realize this, will be the only way you will ever become the best player you can be!..Until then, you are just flapping your gums, and wearing out your typewriter!..That is why, in your 26,000 posts, you have convinced noone, (with common sense) that you know what you're talking about!..For God's sake man..give it up!

PS..Buddy's "clock system" has absolutely nothing to do with aiming, any more than CJ's endless chatter about 'TOI'!

+1, totally agree

What you say is true, there's no doubt about it.
I might add that all the instructors who teach an aiming system certainly have a vested interest. Teaching a system is like Chiropractic medicine. It keeps 'em coming back. :smile:

+1 , totally agree here too. As I've said many times how did all the Champions of yesteryear get so good without every Tom Dick and Harry selling them some kind of system? Best of my knowledge these systems didn't start popping up till when, the late 90's early 00's? Like Tramp said, repeat business.

To the OP, my official stance has always been this - if you are a complete newbie and never held a cue before then sure - aiming systems and some lessons from an accredited I structure could do you some good. Anything past that though I am in the old school camp of HAMB ( hitting a million balls incase you weren't familiar ). Nothing and I mean nothing replaces time on the table table just doing it. I also agree with the others that are saying your stoke is more important than the aiming initially. Worth mentioning too, and not everyone agrees here either but I am a firm believer that when you find a stroke that feels GOODS TO YOU and WORKS FOR YOU go with it. I do not believe I these cookie cutter, robotic like strokes these instructors want you to " learn ". To prove my point with this, all one needs to do is look at many of the top players in the world and their strokes and fund. Theyread doing it all wrong if you listened to most instructors or dvds or whatever.

So many options, so many differing opinions no doubt. Well, let me throw one at yin that won't cost you a dime. We have an instructor on here called Geno Machino. He sells stuff same as everyone else, with one difference. No high pressure sales tactics etc. He is a great player, well respected imstructor, and just an all around good guy. He will actually gives free lessons over the phone that are garunteed to jump your game by at least a ball or two. Maybe give that a try and talk to him about what direction would be best for you. IMO, he does this and has been on the road teaching pool for whatever it is 30 years??? because of his love of the game and honestly trying to make people better - not chasing every last dollar like many are.Just an idear, good luck ,my friend!!!!

PS OP - His name is Gene Albrecht if you choose to research and get contact info

 

[JoeyInCali]

Joey may I ask you what qualifies you to speak for all amateurs?

By observing for a long time and agreeing with Mark Wilson, Jerry Breisath and Tor Lowry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpbNlnS9GFk&t=3s

If someone really wants a geometrically correct aiming system, I'd tell him to get Marvin Chen's book.
And that will still not make him much better unless he has a very good stroke and fundamentals.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Joey may I ask you what qualifies you to speak for all amateurs? You're a great cue maker by all accounts. I make cases. Both of us are amateur players. Both of us have had the privilege of being around a lot of pro players over the years.

But of the two of us I think I am the one who has delved heavily into the aiming systems and you have simply been a critic as far as I can tell.

I don't even know if you actually play much pool. Sure you're around it and you have seen tons of pool but how much do you REALLY know about aiming systems outside of these forums?

How much do you play? Do you gamble? How many people have you had real life on-the-table discussions/sessions with going over aiming systems? Can you tell me how to do basic CTE, ProOne, 90/90, S.A.M., Samba, Shishkebab, Quarters, Mullen Method, Shane Van Boening's shaft aiming system, Shadows/Lights, Double-The-Distance, Aiming by The Numbers or any other "named" system other than Ghost Ball?

You keep using the word esoteric as some sort of denigration as if to say that any of these methods are so complicated that only a very few people will understand them. But in fact if any of them had been developed and brought into the game 50 years ago then you would likely be touting them over anything new developed today.

Once again, AIMING is what happens first. When any person picks up a cue for the first time and with no instruction whatsoever the first thing they do is TRY to aim that pool cue at the cue ball in the direction of the object ball.

STROKE is what happens second. AFTER the aiming is done the player strokes.

Both aspects of the game are important. One of them is not MORE important than the other. Both of them must be mastered to become a consistent player.

In the past 20 years since Hal Houle came on the scene and introduced us all to objective aiming through perception of fixed references the "genre" of aiming systems has matured into robust methods with clear instructions. They produce shot lines that are accurate and precise when used properly. Just as a PROPER stroke produces the cueball reaction desired.

I don't understand why people, like you, want to make this an either/or proposition. It's not. Learning how to aim with a higher degree of precision does not mean one should neglect the stroke. Nor is is true that one just automatically learns to aim by virtue of developing a great stroke. Nor is it that one can't learn to do both at the same time. In fact it's pretty much a prerequisite to have a decently straight stroke when learning to aim properly otherwise one does not know if misses are the result of bad aiming or bad stroking.

I don't understand why anyone who loves pool, especially someone who builds and sells pool cues, would do anything to prevent people from trying anything that could possibly help them get better. And when it comes to aiming systems there is ample evidence by very very very good players that they help with accuracy and consistency. And ample testimonials from amateurs who resisted the ongoing campaigns of negativity and criticism and tried and learned aiming systems who have reported great improvement in their ball pocketing accuracy.

So why do you persist in trying so hard to convince people not to learn aiming systems? Why not live and let live?

https://youtu.be/TIu5HeYrbLQ?t=2164

Was it your stroke or the system that caused the miss? Or did you need a curtain?

To quote the commentators....."system failure".

 

[Danimal]

What you say is true, there's no doubt about it.
I might add that all the instructors who teach an aiming system certainly have a vested interest. Teaching a system is like Chiropractic medicine. It keeps 'em coming back. :smile:

Don't you mean the back is what keeps 'em coming? :grinning-moose:

 

[Tramp Steamer]

Don't you mean the back is what keeps 'em coming? :grinning-moose:

Let me put it another way. Learning a system, whether it be self-taught, or from an instructor, is like wearing arch supports. It'll feel good for awhile, but over time it'll make a cripple out of you.

 

[Mike81]

I appreciate everyone putting in their two cents. I can see it's quite a debate as to which some prefer. I have been doing stroke drills and ball pocketing drills. I did buy tor's DVDs and have had a lesson by an instructor who stressed the importance of straight stroke being key. All of that has helped and reading posts here as well. My problem is on some thin cuts, when you can't really see a contact point anymore cause the angle is extreme, I'm usually 50/50 on making the ball which can cost me the match. That's why I question maybe using a system would help maintain some sort of consistency, otherwise I've been just going with what I feel. Perhaps I am in too much of a hurry to figure it out and maybe it will fall into place sooner or later. I'll just keep bangin away!!!! To the guys who have pointed out that a good stance and psr is important im doing that too!! One more thing for you gentlemen... Does anyone out there shoot great on their own table at home and then shoot at about 50% of their skill during the match?? Like I do?? If you have the answer to that I'd be beyond grateful ! I'm sure it nerves but what a ***** that is!! Thank you all for your help

 

[BmoreMoney]

I appreciate everyone putting in their two cents. I can see it's quite a debate as to which some prefer. I have been doing stroke drills and ball pocketing drills. I did buy tor's DVDs and have had a lesson by an instructor who stressed the importance of straight stroke being key. All of that has helped and reading posts here as well. My problem is on some thin cuts, when you can't really see a contact point anymore cause the angle is extreme, I'm usually 50/50 on making the ball which can cost me the match. That's why I question maybe using a system would help maintain some sort of consistency, otherwise I've been just going with what I feel. Perhaps I am in too much of a hurry to figure it out and maybe it will fall into place sooner or later. I'll just keep bangin away!!!! To the guys who have pointed out that a good stance and psr is important im doing that too!! One more thing for you gentlemen... Does anyone out there shoot great on their own table at home and then shoot at about 50% of their skill during the match?? Like I do?? If you have the answer to that I'd be beyond grateful ! I'm sure it nerves but what a ***** that is!! Thank you all for your help

I think you have just perfectly described what myself and others have been talking about in regards to " feel " Once you get to the point of shooting a ball just by " feel " then Imo you are at the best place one can be. Keep in mind, getting to that point may very well require HAMB ( IT usually does ) but once achieved it gives you so much more than any " system " could ever dream of. An example : just stepping to the table and automatically KNOWING what you need to do and how to do it. A lot of muscle memory involved but mostly experience from shooting the same shot successfully a thousand times before. Anyhow, good luck to ya!

 

[Mike81]

I think you have just perfectly described what myself and others have been talking about in regards to " feel " Once you get to the point of shooting a ball just by " feel " then Imo you are at the best place one can be. Keep in mind, getting to that point may very well require HAMB ( IT usually does ) but once achieved it gives you so much more than any " system " could ever dream of. An example : just stepping to the table and automatically KNOWING what you need to do and how to do it. A lot of muscle memory involved but mostly experience from shooting the same shot successfully a thousand times before. Anyhow, good luck to ya!

I shoot with guys who just walk up ,like you said, and shoot ball after ball with what looks like little effort. Granted, they've been doing it for 10-20 years but, it amazes me sometimes and I think that's what I want to do. I know they don't use any aiming system but maybe they have their own way of doing it. Either way, looks like it's going to take some time

 

[BmoreMoney]

I shoot with guys who just walk up ,like you said, and shoot ball after ball with what looks like little effort. Granted, they've been doing it for 10-20 years but, it amazes me sometimes and I think that's what I want to do. I know they don't use any aiming system but maybe they have their own way of doing it. Either way, looks like it's going to take some time

That it will, but don't get discouraged. Fwiw, it doesn't take 10-20 years to get good. For those that have the ablilty, the bulk of their progress happens within 1-3 years honestly. Not to say you can't improve past that, but that time frame is generally when the biggest jump in initial speed takes place. But yes it tales time, time on the table. Another contentious point is play better payers whenever you can - you will get your brains beet in but you will learn the whole time and ultimately get better from it.

 

[one stroke]

The point is that every system ASSUMES that the stroke is adequate. In effect a good stroke is OF COURSE mandatory to get the most of of any type of aiming system. The aiming system only puts you in the right space but it is your stroke which actually does the work to get the results you need.

The truth is that we amateurs don't KNOW how pros aim unless they tell us. And even then they might not be telling up what they do because they think what they really do gives them an edge that they don't want to reveal to other pros. So they may say something simple like they use Ghost Ball.

Some pros like Shane Van Boening have revealed that they use aiming systems. Shane uses a shaft system to aim with that he says he developed on his own. Given how much time he has in it's totally believable to me that he could discover an objective method of using fixed references to guide his aiming.

Why wouldn't I want to emulate Shane Van Boeing? I mean what's the worst that can happen by copying him diligently? Pretty much nothing bad can come of it for an amateur player trying to get better. Shane himself said he simply copied Bustamante and Earl. So if Shane says he uses an aiming system then why not try it?

Other pros use other methods like CTE and the same thing applies, nothing bad can happen by trying it and the reward might be gaining a solid objective aiming framework that fits in well with the development of a great stroke.

Shane uses a aiming method ,, methods and systems are not one in the same ,,


1

 

[JB Cases]

https://youtu.be/TIu5HeYrbLQ?t=2164

Was it your stroke or the system that caused the miss? Or did you need a curtain?

To quote the commentators....."system failure".

My stroke. I have said that a lot.

 

[JB Cases]

Shane uses a aiming method ,, methods and systems are not one in the same ,,


1

Explain the difference.

 

[JB Cases]

Let me put it another way. Learning a system, whether it be self-taught, or from an instructor, is like wearing arch supports. It'll feel good for awhile, but over time it'll make a cripple out of you.

nope, just the opposite in fact. It will make a "natural" out of you.

 

[JB Cases]

I shoot with guys who just walk up ,like you said, and shoot ball after ball with what looks like little effort. Granted, they've been doing it for 10-20 years but, it amazes me sometimes and I think that's what I want to do. I know they don't use any aiming system but maybe they have their own way of doing it. Either way, looks like it's going to take some time

How do you really know they don't have a system? Looking like you are doing it effortlessly is one of the benefits of a good aiming system.

Or you could do it this way, hit literally two million balls in your lifetime and still not have figured out how to beat this kiss.

https://youtu.be/TIu5HeYrbLQ?t=2308

 

[JB Cases]

ohh look he almost got me with this one.
https://youtu.be/TIu5HeYrbLQ?t=2054

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

ohh look he almost got me with this one.
https://youtu.be/TIu5HeYrbLQ?t=2054

Did you win the rack?

 

[JB Cases]

Did you win the rack?

Nope, but it was still a badass shot from there.

 

[JoeyInCali]

My stroke. I have said that a lot.

What percentage of your misses were due to bad stroke or bad aim in that match?

 

[JB Cases]

Easily 90% of my misses were bad stroke.

 

[Oze147]

I think those aiming systems are mostly a psychological thing. Only exception might be true beginners, who have a hard time to see where to hit the object ball. But in my experience most of them need one or two hours with a more experienced player or a coach to spot that.
Anyway, finding the contact point and hitting it with the cue ball are two different things. That is where stroke mechanics and pre shot routine come into play and I guess where aiming systems unfold their psychological value. They suggest, that you have "done something" to "discover" that contact point (which was obviously there all the time and easy to see for everybody with a tiny bit of experience or just rudimentary understandings of geometry).
In fact you didn`t pocket the shot because of the system but that bit of extra time you took over your shot. You were focused a bit more, calmed down a bit, maybe brought to your mind that you need to keep your head still...or to make the pause on the back swing...