You didn't just try to justify it. You lied about what you did. I know for certain that the imposter played six matches, not two as you claimed. If you were lying about that, who knows what else you were lying about? You say no ID was shown, but RACEFORNINE says it was. If I believe him, and I'm certainly not going to believe YOU, it means your whole scam was planned, not spur of the moment as you claim. Most likely another lie.
The APA 9 ball team CHAMPIONS disqualified
- Thread starter racefornine
- Start date
You didn't just try to justify it. You lied about what you did. I know for certain that the imposter played six matches, not two as you claimed. If you were lying about that, who knows what else you were lying about? You say no ID was shown, but RACEFORNINE says it was. If I believe him, and I'm certainly not going to believe YOU, it means your whole scam was planned, not spur of the moment as you claim. Most likely another lie.
I thought you said you were leaving
Back when I was in the Navy, you learned the two worst types of people in this world are liars and thieves.
IMO, sandbaggers are liars, and when they play tournaments for money, become thieves. I'm not sure what they become when they attempt to paint a picture of justification.
If it comes to a point where the victims of this would take legal action, that is a shame it would need that. IF the APA takes the money back and gives it to charity, I think that is appalling, it's NOT their money to give away. It belongs to the players on other teams and should be given to them NOT the local food shelf, thrift store, animal shelter, etc.
By the way, DON'T compare your choosing to cheat to someone that drove intoxed and lands in prison - a ban from league pool in NO WAY affects your life like taking someone elses - pss poor attempt to draw sympathy. Shame on you for that.
And APA - Get effing real!!!! Undo this and give the teams what they earned by playing WITHIN the rules. Anything short, makes this your gaff.
IMO, sandbaggers are liars, and when they play tournaments for money, become thieves. I'm not sure what they become when they attempt to paint a picture of justification.
If it comes to a point where the victims of this would take legal action, that is a shame it would need that. IF the APA takes the money back and gives it to charity, I think that is appalling, it's NOT their money to give away. It belongs to the players on other teams and should be given to them NOT the local food shelf, thrift store, animal shelter, etc.
By the way, DON'T compare your choosing to cheat to someone that drove intoxed and lands in prison - a ban from league pool in NO WAY affects your life like taking someone elses - pss poor attempt to draw sympathy. Shame on you for that.
And APA - Get effing real!!!! Undo this and give the teams what they earned by playing WITHIN the rules. Anything short, makes this your gaff.
When my APA team finished 17-24th in Vegas a few years ago, both teams that beat us were disqualified after their subsequent matches, meaning that we were out of the tournament, without any recourse, and no explanation or apology. That left a very bad taste in my mouth, and I didn't return to league for several years.
Then, earlier this year, I begrudgingly signed up with a random APA team because I missed playing league, and there are WAY more APA leagues here than anything else. My very first week, in practice before our match, the SL3 on my new team casually broke and ran two consecutive racks of 9-ball, nice and smooth, then bragged that we had one of the best-sandbagged teams in the league.
I walked out at that moment and decided I simply can't play APA league any more. Yes, APA league is fun, and I've had some great experiences, especially working with newer players, but it seems like the sandbagging and cheating stuff is literally built into the system.
I like having fun, and APA was usually great for that, but I also like to play fair and square (win or lose). When you're playing in the advanced rounds in Vegas, try telling yourself that you're just in it to have fun, so it doesn't matter of you were cheated. It's very hard to do that and not become bitter about all the cheating, especially when there seems to be no real effort to prevent it. I WAS having fun - until the cheating showed up again!
The more I read this thread, the better I feel about my decision. Every post reminds me of my own experiences with the APA.
Good riddance!
-Blake
Ex-APA SL7 & SL9
P.S. I now play in a tiny in-house BCA league, and I love it.
Then, earlier this year, I begrudgingly signed up with a random APA team because I missed playing league, and there are WAY more APA leagues here than anything else. My very first week, in practice before our match, the SL3 on my new team casually broke and ran two consecutive racks of 9-ball, nice and smooth, then bragged that we had one of the best-sandbagged teams in the league.
I walked out at that moment and decided I simply can't play APA league any more. Yes, APA league is fun, and I've had some great experiences, especially working with newer players, but it seems like the sandbagging and cheating stuff is literally built into the system.
I like having fun, and APA was usually great for that, but I also like to play fair and square (win or lose). When you're playing in the advanced rounds in Vegas, try telling yourself that you're just in it to have fun, so it doesn't matter of you were cheated. It's very hard to do that and not become bitter about all the cheating, especially when there seems to be no real effort to prevent it. I WAS having fun - until the cheating showed up again!
The more I read this thread, the better I feel about my decision. Every post reminds me of my own experiences with the APA.
Good riddance!
-Blake
Ex-APA SL7 & SL9
P.S. I now play in a tiny in-house BCA league, and I love it.
Sam from TAP, Help us understand this please.
Other than financial gain what does TAP or any pool league gain by allowing these classless fools to play in their league?
One would find it somewhat difficult to believe that no TAP members from your league have voiced concern for allowing these guys to continue play. Perhaps not many know yet? I’m sure that’s about to change. It maybe your league to run, but without paying players you will have no league. These few players could single handedly ruin a local league by driving honest players elsewhere, it’s certainly not like there isn’t alternatives.
What exactly is TAP’s mission statement? We can’t possibly imagine it supports this activity! They've admitted to guilt, what more proof is need to justify action, will you really wait to be next? Really!
Other than financial gain what does TAP or any pool league gain by allowing these classless fools to play in their league?
One would find it somewhat difficult to believe that no TAP members from your league have voiced concern for allowing these guys to continue play. Perhaps not many know yet? I’m sure that’s about to change. It maybe your league to run, but without paying players you will have no league. These few players could single handedly ruin a local league by driving honest players elsewhere, it’s certainly not like there isn’t alternatives.
What exactly is TAP’s mission statement? We can’t possibly imagine it supports this activity! They've admitted to guilt, what more proof is need to justify action, will you really wait to be next? Really!
I can tell you don't play TAP League.
I like TAP League but you see a pattern of what is going on after a while. :rotflmao1:There is a real art form to winning the trip to the Nationals and winning title holders every year...and keeping the same players and the same handicaps.
oke:I'm not on a winning team but wish I was.:crying:
The APA information states Pennsylvania as this teams home state. Their operators were ZSAPA from around Pittsburgh.
Apparently there is talk on some APA message boards/forums of sanctions against these operators as they've had 3 or 4 teams in as many years ousted from nationals, but this one was the icing on the cake.
Seems the APA is quite serious and operators have indicated that this could cost ZSAPA serious financial loss if not their APA license.
Don't know who ZSAPA is, but I'll bet as this transpires this team could really pay the ultimate price if APA players get together seek legal action. Like in anything, these teams that lost may have players with deep pockets, that intern could insue a huge legal battle and these clowns stand to loose alot more than this $10,000 prize they stole!
Apparently there is talk on some APA message boards/forums of sanctions against these operators as they've had 3 or 4 teams in as many years ousted from nationals, but this one was the icing on the cake.
Seems the APA is quite serious and operators have indicated that this could cost ZSAPA serious financial loss if not their APA license.
Don't know who ZSAPA is, but I'll bet as this transpires this team could really pay the ultimate price if APA players get together seek legal action. Like in anything, these teams that lost may have players with deep pockets, that intern could insue a huge legal battle and these clowns stand to loose alot more than this $10,000 prize they stole!
How is this the fault of APA? This is a problem with this particular team. Any handicapped league is going to have sandbaggers. The local leagues (BCA, APA, NPA, TAP) in this area do not have a problems with cheaters/sandbaggers. Actually had you bothered to read the APA manual you would know that APA is pretty serious about preventing sandbagging.
Sam from TAP, how does your local League mission differ from the Mission of TAP Nationally? Copied from TAP's website.
•To promote integrity, honesty and fair play in amatrure competition
•To encourage growth in the sport of amateure pool
•To provide opportunity for amateure world-class play
•To bring respect to the game of amateure pool
•To create a amateure Pool League for the player
You see our mission through our members every day, weather it be the sportsmansship of a handshake across the table or a smile or wave to a friend.
Fellow members around the United States and Canada together shair the pride of our mission, working to transplante a clear opertunity to better the sport of billiards worls wide.
Perhaps you were unaware of this mission Sam?
•To promote integrity, honesty and fair play in amatrure competition
•To encourage growth in the sport of amateure pool
•To provide opportunity for amateure world-class play
•To bring respect to the game of amateure pool
•To create a amateure Pool League for the player
You see our mission through our members every day, weather it be the sportsmansship of a handshake across the table or a smile or wave to a friend.
Fellow members around the United States and Canada together shair the pride of our mission, working to transplante a clear opertunity to better the sport of billiards worls wide.
Perhaps you were unaware of this mission Sam?
I don't know why you'd question Sam like that. Sam is a good guy. He is dedicated to TAP League, pool, sportsmanship, and tries to be fair about everything.
Sam is one of the good guys in TAP League.
By the way...I am available for Edison NJ if anyone is hard up for a lousy, grayed hair, over weight, half blind handicapped 7 player for eight ball.
I wish that I could agree with you, but there are several teams in that division that do the same thing. It's almost a contest: Who can sandbag the most? I've played in regional singles many times, and my teams have played in our city championships many times. I'm not talking about a one-time occurrence here. If I had never seen it before, I would have stayed on the team and notified the LO. Instead, it was just a stark reminder of all the BS I had to put up with in the past in this division. I assumed that nothing had changed, so I left. Perhaps I was too quick to judge, based on that one observation.
You'll have to explain this one to me. It seems a bit contradictory. Aren't those all handicapped leagues? Or are you delineating between "local" vs Vegas-bound leagues?
I haven't played NPA, but our TAP league was not nearly as bad as the APA league. My whole point is that "Any handicapped league is going to have sandbaggers," but if the league is slow to take action, or quick to look the other way, then maybe these leagues just aren't for me.
Yes, there is some tiny bit of satisfaction in hearing that the sandbagger who put you out of the tournament two rounds ago has been DQ'd, but it doesn't make up for getting cheated out of your chance to compete.
I also agree with one of the previous posts, which pointed out that mathematically, the larger number of players in the APA could be a reason that I see it more often there. But that still doesn't make it okay.
I don't see any sandbagging in my BCA league. Maybe it would be more evident if we were playing for a trip to Vegas. I don't know. At least in BCA, sandbagging hurts your team score since you pay for your lower rank with points. Anyway, it seems to at least be more complicated and difficult to sandbag in BCA, while still winning your division.
Yeah, well, I'm not going to get all heated because of your language here. You've never met me, so you would have no way of knowing that as a captain, not only did I read the manuals, I kept them with me in my pool bag, and memorized where to find many rules by page number. I read them often and thoroughly. I'm "that guy" in league that people call to watch shots or answer rule questions. That's precisely why it makes me so mad that they didn't follow through with their "very serious" attitude against preventing sandbagging.
And maybe that's a more accurate point: That they do a fair job of *addressing* and *punishing* sandbagging once it becomes obvious, but they do a very poor job of *preventing* sandbagging. Anyone who has studied the economics of incentives can see that the "Equalizer" is a perfect example of providing all the incentives to sandbag, and almost none to play honestly (other than personal integrity, which some people lack).
When we did well that year in Vegas, we had three teams that we didn't know, from different parts of the country, come to us and tell us that they had notified the TD about the obviously sandbagging teams that we were about to play. Shortly after our matches with them started, we also notified the TD. It wasn't until their fourth match "on TD watch" that they were DQ'd. This was true for both of the teams that beat us. Obviously, they were the only two teams that beat us.
Anyway, it doesn't really matter whose "fault" it is. I just don't enjoy the overall experience, especially when I feel powerless to do anything about it. The cheaters and lack of enforcement spoil the fun for me.
Those bad apples DID ruin the whole bunch for me.
-Blake
Poolguy4u,
Sam may in fact be a Great Guy, and no one is questioning his personal integrity, but rather his judgment on this particular issue. But regardless how one sees it, his position on a matter of this severity seems way off base. I’m certain his character has influenced his judgment here, but his good guy attitude will get him nowhere attempting to reason with individuals like this. The screwing is forthcoming; you can ultimately count on that for sure!
One would wonder in any of these characters are in charge of local teams or in control of score sheets each week? Once the system is compromised it’s only a matter of time until it breaks!
Sam may in fact be a Great Guy, and no one is questioning his personal integrity, but rather his judgment on this particular issue. But regardless how one sees it, his position on a matter of this severity seems way off base. I’m certain his character has influenced his judgment here, but his good guy attitude will get him nowhere attempting to reason with individuals like this. The screwing is forthcoming; you can ultimately count on that for sure!
One would wonder in any of these characters are in charge of local teams or in control of score sheets each week? Once the system is compromised it’s only a matter of time until it breaks!
I really hate when something stoops to spelling/grammar correction but for gosh sake TAP, get a proofreader or at least invest in spell check if you're going to publish something on the internet.
If you don't, it makes you look foolish AMATEURS as compared to fullish amateures.
Some people may have good intentions but they just aren't very business savvy. This is a terrible business move to allow known cheaters into your league.
:thumbup:
Oh...APA and TAP will be here forever. Always handicaps getting too high to play...then new young low handicap players will take their place. It's like a big pyramid business.
There isn't much you can do about people keeping score, balls being missed, and getting bad position on purpose. There is some strategy when it comes to who to play against who. It helps if you can look up player's history...but not everyone can see this.
Every handicap league will have flaws, but it's the best thing going in the USA for players that aren't so skilled.
EDIT: I misread and thought you were addressing movin-on.
Maybe I need a proofreader.
Haha, tell that to TAP. That's the way it is on their website.
-Blake
HAAA!!! I had written the post and then inserted the part about it being TAP, not you. You must have read it with the same thought patter.
That many misspells, pretty Busch League, oh wait, that's APA old name...
If you kicked out all the cheaters, drinkers, pot smokers, and people with a criminal record, they're wouldn't be many people left.:rotflmao1: