True Workings of Pivot-style Aiming

[Mkindsv]

ROTFLMAO!!! Too much! Only on a pool forum where everyone can hide behind a keyboard in anonymity.

When Landon gets off for his summer break from college, how about a $20,000 match with you on the same 10' table he wiped out Earl on?

LMAO and I can't stop!

Stands that I fear no man, I would gladly play any person that wanted to play. But you are big hot Sh@ throwin out pros names and crazy money. I would play you, any day of the week.. Landon this...Stan That...you really should speak for your own game...if it was a stronger game, you probably wouldn't have to be riding other people's Richards...tell me about how you'd whoop me on the table. Fact is I would probably have to spot you the 8 out...that's how it is with most bigmouth blowhards.

 

[paultex]

I have to admit I believe it's a tougher road when feel is part of formulation.

There's many examples to prove validity in known endeavors.

Willie Hoppe said that when he is in dead beam, he doesn't feel anything in his stroke, as if his arm is not there.

Golfers, tennis players etc, whether static or in flux, constantly work on mechanics, body position to the point of every degree possible and prudent to gain that edge because it gets tougher and tougher at the top of the food chain.

If there was a way to just get there with the force and flow your way into the highest levels, then I would agree it's the best way, but so far, I don't think it's possible.

I know this is not what Brian is suggesting and it's obvious he means to train with form and then let her rip in battle.

But I don't care what system, it can all work but there has to be a foundation of knowledge to the highest degree possible in order to execute consistently and that means any where.

One major problem of consistency is distance from shooter to cueball. I never hear this discussed, or certainly not discussed in detail, considering the paramount importance.

I been doing some thinking but the ideas keep coming back to what I call the blade runner equation. It's a major problem.

Enjoy.

 

[8pack]

I have to admit I believe it's a tougher road when feel is part of formulation.

There's many examples to prove validity in known endeavors.

Willie Hoppe said that when he is in dead beam, he doesn't feel anything in his stroke, as if his arm is not there.

Golfers, tennis players etc, whether static or in flux, constantly work on mechanics, body position to the point of every degree possible and prudent to gain that edge because it gets tougher and tougher at the top of the food chain.

If there was a way to just get there with the force and flow your way into the highest levels, then I would agree it's the best way, but so far, I don't think it's possible.

I know this is not what Brian is suggesting and it's obvious he means to train with form and then let her rip in battle.

But I don't care what system, it can all work but there has to be a foundation of knowledge to the highest degree possible in order to execute consistently and that means any where.

One major problem of consistency is distance from shooter to cueball. I never hear this discussed, or certainly not discussed in detail, considering the paramount importance.

I been doing some thinking but the ideas keep coming back to what I call the blade runner equation. It's a major problem.

Enjoy.

Feel has all your knowledge entwined with it, your way of thinking is so far from the truth of things. I actually feel sorry for you.

 

[BC21]

I have to admit I believe it's a tougher road when feel is part of formulation.

There's many examples to prove validity in known endeavors.

Willie Hoppe said that when he is in dead beam, he doesn't feel anything in his stroke, as if his arm is not there.

Golfers, tennis players etc, whether static or in flux, constantly work on mechanics, body position to the point of every degree possible and prudent to gain that edge because it gets tougher and tougher at the top of the food chain.

If there was a way to just get there with the force and flow your way into the highest levels, then I would agree it's the best way, but so far, I don't think it's possible.

I know this is not what Brian is suggesting and it's obvious he means to train with form and then let her rip in battle.

But I don't care what system, it can all work but there has to be a foundation of knowledge to the highest degree possible in order to execute consistently and that means any where.

One major problem of consistency is distance from shooter to cueball. I never hear this discussed, or certainly not discussed in detail, considering the paramount importance.

I been doing some thinking but the ideas keep coming back to what I call the blade runner equation. It's a major problem.

Enjoy.

I like your focus on knowledge. I agree that more knowledge can equal higher skill, but it's not a precursor. Consider this: Developing a great feel or intuition for something is often independent of knowledge. I know a few mind-blowing guitarists that can't read music. They have absolutely zero knowledge of music theory, yet their ear for music and their feel for playing the guitar is outstanding.

Another example.....standing 30yds from the green and the pin is in a tricky spot, a golfer must use FEEL to put that ball as close as possible to the hole. I use 2 different clubs for such pitch shots -- an 8 iron or a Pitching wedge. Each club has a different feel, and I can shoot several different shots with each by varying my swing and club speed. It's 100% feel. If you played golf you'd know this, just like if you played piano you'd know how nerve racking a public performance can be. I mean so nerve racking that you freeze up and have to walk off the stage. Fact is, having all the knowledge in the world is no guarantee that your nerves won't sabotage you. And having every bit of knowledge about a certain skill is no guarantee that you'll be any good at it.

 

[paultex]

I like your focus on knowledge. I agree that more knowledge can equal higher skill, but it's not a precursor. Consider this: Developing a great feel or intuition for something is often independent of knowledge. I know a few mind-blowing guitarists that can't read music. They have absolutely zero knowledge of music theory, yet their ear for music and their feel for playing the guitar is outstanding.

Another example.....standing 30yds from the green and the pin is in a tricky spot, a golfer must use FEEL to put that ball as close as possible to the hole. I use 2 different clubs for such pitch shots -- an 8 iron or a Pitching wedge. Each club has a different feel, and I can shoot several different shots with each by varying my swing and club speed. It's 100% feel. If you played golf you'd know this, just like if you played piano you'd know how nerve racking a public performance can be. I mean so nerve racking that you freeze up and have to walk off the stage. Fact is, having all the knowledge in the world is no guarantee that your nerves won't sabotage you. And having every bit of knowledge about a certain skill is no guarantee that you'll be any good at it.

Well then, the question comes down to if you build a robot that has all the formulations or a human control it, either way, I think it could be possible to never miss, basically.

What would feel have to do with that then?

 

[paultex]

The point is, to take as much of the feel out as possible.

I, we have shots that are inherently difficult but I've found that if I apply a different alignment, the shot no longer needs finesse and perfect speed control to go in.

Finding or knowing that particular alignment isn't automatic, but that's why you experiment and catalog these things in your shot bag.

I refuse to believe Varner is finessing tough shots in over and over. He knows how to line up better, whether stance or stroke or visual.

If a particular shot is thick and thin miss and make requires a perfect timing and speed, there's something wrong in most cases.

If this is hard to understand, it doesn't surprise me because there are too many misconceptions in pool and too much accepted failure.

It's a tough shot! Pool is difficult! Weeeee im a loser!

My kind of talk gets boos from the crowd. I see things different than most but I can clearly see what's there that most do not want to accept.

Not saying it's easy but it's not hard if the work is put in and have faith and take on a approach that allows it to happen.

If I can't pull it off, I know for a fact, more people could play this game at a high level, but not if a atmosphere of false dogma is perpetuated.

 

[BC21]

Well then, the question comes down to if you build a robot that has all the formulations or a human control it, either way, I think it could be possible to never miss, basically.

What would feel have to do with that then?

We're not robots.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Another example.....standing 30yds from the green and the pin is in a tricky spot, a golfer must use FEEL to put that ball as close as possible to the hole. I use 2 different clubs for such pitch shots -- an 8 iron or a Pitching wedge. Each club has a different feel, and I can shoot several different shots with each by varying my swing and club speed. It's 100% feel. If you played golf you'd know this

What does this have to do with AIMING? Of course there's feel in pool but NOT IN THE AIMING PART.

FEEL comes from how hard you want to hit the shot to get the CB moved around the table to a certain area just like in hitting a chip or pitch shot in golf.

In your above example, you still have to AIM the face and sole of the club either straight to the line of the hole if the green is level, AIM to the LEFT of the hole if there's a slope to the right, or AIM to the RIGHT of the hole if there's a slope to the left. Your BODY is also AIMED either to the RIGHT, LEFT, or STRAIGHT based on those factors.

THE AIMING PART IS VISUAL FOR THE CLUB FACE, LEADING EDGE OF THE SOLE, AND THE BODY. JUST LIKE IN POOL. IT'S VISUAL AND WE ARE IN TOTAL CONTROL OF THE AIMING PART BEFORE FEEL COMES INTO PLAY FOR THE STROKING OR STRIKING PART.

FEEL comes into play based on how hard you have to hit the ball and where the ball needs to LAND on the green to roll out the rest of the way to the cup. What club you use is based on the distance from the ball to the landing zone on the green, the total distance from ball to pin, and how far the ball will roll after landing based on the loft of the club.

Last year I took a couple of long lessons with a super instructor on the short game and learned more than I ever imagined was involved with chipping and pitching.

Eliminating AIMING is NOT a part of it. AIMING is vital just as it is in PUTTING a golf ball.

That having been said, PUTTING to a hole in golf is more like hitting the CB to a target on the OB than other aspects of golf like pitching.

Let's think about a 9' putt, the same length as a pool table. We'll also take out some of the variables of a putt such as slope and grain of the grass.

IOW, like a pool table we're looking at a perfectly straight putt of 9'. The speed of the putt is somewhere between 10-12' on the stimpmeter. We could make it anywhere in between 1' to 9' in distance, doesn't matter.

Does visual AIM come into play more or does how hard you strike the ball by feel the primary factor? Remember, this isn't a 75' putt, it's 9'. We can also make it 6' which is more similar to a shot on the pool table.

I can't wait for the double talk nonsensical response that comes from this.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Stands that I fear no man, I would gladly play any person that wanted to play. But you are big hot Sh@ throwin out pros names and crazy money. I would play you, any day of the week.. Landon this...Stan That...you really should speak for your own game...if it was a stronger game, you probably wouldn't have to be riding other people's Richards...tell me about how you'd whoop me on the table. Fact is I would probably have to spot you the 8 out...that's how it is with most bigmouth blowhards.

Show up at the SBE, champ. What's your name so I'll know who to look for?

 

[SpiderWebComm]

The point is, to take as much of the feel out as possible.

And a great point! Not only in AIMING but also in other areas that most think is all feel.

How about where and how the CB goes after striking the OB WITH ENGLISH.

Sure, it's usually always played by feel because there hasn't been much out there to make one aware of other options.

But the Clock System by Buddy Hall definitely illustrates to a player where you place the tip of your cue on the CB and strike it gives you more control of where it's going to hit on the rail and the path it takes to end up at various spots on the table for the next shot or shots. It's absolutely stupid NOT to learn it and use it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ypc_peV3EWE

This is a super example of how a player must AIM the tip of his cue to hit the EXACT number on the clock or it won't come off perfectly. ALL ACCURATE VISUAL AIM!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zmdr1uk8uts

AIMING at various diamonds on the table with the Diamond System will do the same thing as opposed to guessing or using underdeveloped feel.

 

[BC21]

What does this have to do with AIMING? Of course there's feel in pool but NOT IN THE AIMING PART.

FEEL comes from how hard you want to hit the shot to get the CB moved around the table to a certain area just like in hitting a chip or pitch shot in golf.

In your above example, you still have to AIM the face and sole of the club either straight to the line of the hole if the green is level, AIM to the LEFT of the hole if there's a slope to the right, or AIM to the RIGHT of the hole if there's a slope to the left. Your BODY is also AIMED either to the RIGHT, LEFT, or STRAIGHT based on those factors.

THE AIMING PART IS VISUAL FOR THE CLUB FACE, LEADING EDGE OF THE SOLE, AND THE BODY. JUST LIKE IN POOL. IT'S VISUAL AND WE ARE IN TOTAL CONTROL OF THE AIMING PART BEFORE FEEL COMES INTO PLAY FOR THE STROKING OR STRIKING PART.

FEEL comes into play based on how hard you have to hit the ball and where the ball needs to LAND on the green to roll out the rest of the way to the cup. What club you use is based on the distance from the ball to the landing zone on the green, the total distance from ball to pin, and how far the ball will roll after landing based on the loft of the club.

Last year I took a couple of long lessons with a super instructor on the short game and learned more than I ever imagined was involved with chipping and pitching.

Eliminating AIMING is NOT a part of it. AIMING is vital just as it is in PUTTING a golf ball.

That having been said, PUTTING to a hole in golf is more like hitting the CB to a target on the OB than other aspects of golf like pitching.

Let's think about a 9' putt, the same length as a pool table. We'll also take out some of the variables of a putt such as slope and grain of the grass.

IOW, like a pool table we're looking at a perfectly straight putt of 9'. The speed of the putt is somewhere between 10-12' on the stimpmeter. We could make it anywhere in between 1' to 9' in distance, doesn't matter.

Does visual AIM come into play more or does how hard you strike the ball by feel the primary factor? Remember, this isn't a 75' putt, it's 9'. We can also make it 6' which is more similar to a shot on the pool table.

I can't wait for the double talk nonsensical response that comes from this.

You address the golf ball and based on where you stand and what you see, you must determine if it feels like you are aligned properly, just like aiming in pool. Feel is not defined strictly by tangible means. There is an emotional sensation also. Every single time you use your judgement to decide which visual reference to use for CTE, and then you decide exactly where your air pivot/sweep should be, those decision are based on what you FEEL is correct. If you move down on the shot and something doesn't FEEL right, whether it's physical or mental/emotional, do you ignore that feeling and pull the trigger anyway, or do you stand back up and reaccess things? If you stand up, which is the correct thing to do, then you play with feel also.

 

[paultex]

We're not robots.

Yes we are.

 

[paultex]

Feel has all your knowledge entwined with it, your way of thinking is so far from the truth of things. I actually feel sorry for you.

I didn't like your post to the point of having a dream about you.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

You address the golf ball and based on where you stand and what you see, you must determine if it feels like you are aligned properly, just like aiming in pool.

The next thing you'll be bragging about is you're a scratch golfer. You sound like the typical hack who knows zip about the game. A pro golfer uses visuals on the ground for alignment for their feet and body line and their club face line along with the pin on the green.

AIMING FOR FULL SHOTS IN GOLF: http://www.free-golf-lessons.com/golf-alignment-lesson.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfcY2B00zIs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIKwIvZwwjU



Feel is not defined strictly by tangible means. There is an emotional sensation also.

I knew it was going to get absurd and nonsensical with your response. You came through with flying colors. Damn good thing brain surgeons or heart surgeons know EXACTLY where to cut with the scalpel and don't need emotion to FEEL if they're in the right spot or not with a centimeter being the difference between life or a catastrophe. You must be exhausted after playing a long time and all the highs/lows, rapid heart beat, adrenaline, anxiety, etc. that comes over you on each shot.

Every single time you use your judgement to decide which visual reference to use for your pivot, that decision is based on what you FEEL to correct.

With shiskabob there may be a couple of shots on the table like that. But for the most part they're predetermined and it's as easy as 1-2-3 because of PAST EXPERIENCE KNOWLEDGE. If you need outside English on a mild cut you aim CCB to COB and pivot 1 tip to outside. PLINK.

Address the PUTTING scenario from 6-9'. It's most like pool.

Let's think about a 9' putt, the same length as a pool table. We'll also take out some of the variables of a putt such as slope and grain of the grass.

IOW, like a pool table we're looking at a perfectly straight putt of 9'. The speed of the putt is somewhere between 10-12' on the stimpmeter. We could make it anywhere in between 1' to 9' in distance, doesn't matter.

Does visual AIM come into play more or does how hard you strike the ball by feel the primary factor? Remember, this isn't a 75' putt, it's 9'. We can also make it 6' which is more similar to a shot on the pool table.

 

[cookie man]

Not true. I would have paid upwards of $150 and knew for a fact it was made by a MASTER CHEF.

I agree. The complete pizza made by a master is worth a lot more then a partial by an unknown that i have to finish by myself.

 

[cookie man]

By "body english" are you talking about hip pivots, twisting the wrist on the final stroke, or aligning in one direction while your stroke is offset in a different direction from your vision? Or are you talking about using portions of your tip to create varying pivot angles at varying bridge lengths? I mean, there are players that do all of these things to fill gaps, and it's a trial and error process that they work on until they get it working, until it FEELS right.

You described feel best with the word "experience ".

And, being a musician, I can say you are 100% incorrect about the concert pianist. They do choke and strike the wrong keys here and there, but 99.9% of listeners wouldn't know it because they don't have the ear to recognize slight tonal mistakes, and because the pianist immediately improvises and moves on like it was meant to be played that way. They can do this because they are one with the instrument, feeling every tone, not just hearing it, but feeling it. They play on autopilot due to the feel of creative flow. And it DOES require an inordinate amount of time to develop this free-flowing ability, typically a few years of finger exercises, hundreds of hours of painful practice, and then there's ear training, music theory study, etc....it isn't something a non-musician can learn in a short time by simply buying a piano, taking a few weeks of lessons, and watching a few YouTube clips.

In contrast, a non-pool-player can buy a cue, spend a few weeks with a good pool instructor, and become a decent pool player quite easily. When comparing musicianship to playing pool, the lists of fundamentals and required knowledge are worlds apart. You can become an incredible pool player by simply developing solid basic fundamentals -- stroke, grip, stance -- and a basic understanding of cb and ob reactions/movements. To become an incredible musician you need to develop the basic fundamentals of playing your specific instrument, and you need to fully understand all aspects of music theory, and have an ear that allows you to hear everything going on in real time so you can get into the flow of the music. What pool and music share is the ability to be able to enter that flow, that zone where you're automatically performing at a high level with very little conscious effort. That's FEEL at its extreme. It's tough to explain, but when it happens you know it's happening and you ride it out for as long as it lasts.

If it's all about feel then why are you here? You really can't discuss feel, i mean how do you even describe it or teach it?
No, a non pool playing player can not become good very easily. If that were true the largest league APA in the country would go out of business. Ever here of lifetime 3's, lifetime 4's. They love pool but no matter what you teach them that's what they are.
If you use a system then it's not even close to playing by feel. Feel is throwing balls on the table and whacking them around. Playing at that high level in a zone is not feel. You are in a zone. That is your hard work paying off. All your systematic practice is coming naturally. You don't stop using the system in the zone, you are perfectly using the system in the zone. In the music zone you don't forget everything and just go off to your own beat. You are zoning perfectly with what you've been practicing.

 

[cookie man]

When you decide to use a 1/4 tip pivot vs a 1/2 tip, what is your criteria? When using CTE Pro1, you get your ccb perception from the visuals, then you decide if it looks like it needs thinned or thickened from there. What is your thought process for this decision?

It's judgement. Judgement based on experience. You look at it and think, "Hmmmm.....it needs to be thinner." Then you sweep from inside to ccb and look at it from there, asking yourself, "Does it feel right? Does it look right?" If it does you fire away. If it doesn't you either adjust a normal amount as you would for any shot until it looks or feels right, or you start over. This is how Stan explained it in one of his clips. You might be different. You might pivot or sweep miraculously to the exact ccb needed every time with no double checking or verification required...no alignment tweaking as Stan does in his videos. If so, you probably run over top of Allen Hopkins when you two play. :grin:

The thick and thin is not judgement. It's objectively laid out by the system.
The tweak as Stan describes is not to make the shot look right. You've been told this. He's tweaking to the exact aiming lines that are described in the system. He's not tweaking away from CCB but instead tweaking to the exact CCB. You are way out of context concerning the video that Stan describes his tweaking in.

 

[paultex]

Feels like if you are aligned properly?

Brian, perhaps I'm wrong and the reason I am a genius is because I'll never be the guy to drive my car off a cliff because im willing to get out the car and check first,

......BUT, are you sure of this? We have 2 eyes and we can program the mind muscle link in conjunction with the extension of the mind known as eyes.

There should be no doubt if you are at least lined up at the target from knowledge etc etc.

I guess "doubt" can always be there, but that would come into play more so if feel was part of the formulation.

I've lined up on shots where there is no doubt and even a ping pong ball hit me in the head in mid stroke and not miss.

You can find feel but im going to find line. So be it, but that's just me. I don't think it has anything to do with me more so than the line is there in static existence and I want to connect with it and stuff feel up my oponents ass.

We are on defcon 2 now sir. WAR IS IMMINENT!.......don't make me pull out the ever trident and patent "how many pros have you beaten" balistic smug missile.

I warn you, I'll do it.

 

[paultex]

I also have a secret weapon of decisive victory and it's fair I warn you. Don't be Stalin and walk away as if I'm bluffing.

Vulcans never bluff.

It's so powerful a weapon, I just forgot it as I type this urgent comuni'cae to you sir but I'll remember it if you......push....................THE button.

Think it over and admit feel is a superstition and I'll reward you.

Sell out your convictions, it's the right thing to do when your wrong.

 

[paultex]

Address the PUTTING scenario from 6-9'. It's most like pool.

Let's think about a 9' putt, the same length as a pool table. We'll also take out some of the variables of a putt such as slope and grain of the grass.

IOW, like a pool table we're looking at a perfectly straight putt of 9'. The speed of the putt is somewhere between 10-12' on the stimpmeter. We could make it anywhere in between 1' to 9' in distance, doesn't matter.

Does visual AIM come into play more or does how hard you strike the ball by feel the primary factor? Remember, this isn't a 75' putt, it's 9'. We can also make it 6' which is more similar to a shot on the pool table.

I can add to your last paragraph further to solidify an almighty crushing and decisive victory.

......they THINK they've won spidey, but they will soon find out. The ground work being laid down in a massive pincer movement with me sweeping in for the final knock out punch.

Thy honor is true mein Shuffett.