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What is your PSR?
- Thread starter Ralph Kramden
- Start date
Wow. That's exactly what I was going to say about you. Not sure why you got an attitude, but it's pretty obvious you went into attack mode. I was contributing positively to this thread, then you asked a simple question: "wouldn't logic dictate that a PSR would be a necessity for all players who expect consistency?"
This question was in reply to me posting the importance of a PSR if a player was looking for of expecting consistency. I answered with, "not necessarily". I truly don't believe every pool player (or anybody in any sport that involves hand-eye skills, muscle memory, or strategic thought) needs a set routine to ensure consistency. I do. Most do. But I wouldn't assume everyone does.
You are quick with hasty generalizations and troll-style comments. Please refrain from quoting me in the future unless you're willing to be a little nicer, rather than pursuing some personal quest to undermine my words. And study up on some sports psychology and how the brain fits into the equation......There's a lot to learn.
Soooo, a few years back I took a lesson from Ray Martin (yes, that Ray Martin) at his house. I wrote the whole thing up and you can look it up but here's just an excerpt:
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I asked him about he aimed. “Just see the shot,” he said. “No ghost ball, no contact points, no tracks, aiming systems, no edges?!” I asked. “No. All that aiming system stuff -- people want a magic pill. They don’t want to work. Those are all gimmicks, something to sell,” Ray told me...
And then he really shocked me. “So what about Pre Shot Routines?” I asked. “Don’t have one,” he replied.
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Lou Figueroa
CTE at proficiency is see a perception and align. Foundationally, the alignment is to CCB. What's important about the few perceptions that I use for playing is that they each have definition if I should choose to go consciously analytical. In other words, the CTE perceptions are made up of 2 lines: an aim line and a sight line. I can pay attention to them or not. They're there as background subconscious knowlegde. So, if I want to tweak I can based on known lines.
You and Ray are closer to CTE than you realize.
Stan Shuffett
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Very interesting.
I too had the chance to talk with Ray Martin. At a clinic he gave in 1993 at a public pool room in front of about 30 pool players. Billy Johnson was there, Ralph Guest, Mark Tadd, I think Mark Gregory was there too (although I may be wrong about him.) Also numerous local shortstops and the usual loafers like me.
I got to ask him some questions in front of everyone, first concerning cue ball frozen to the rail shots. He said: "I choke up a little shorter on the cue and tighten up my grip. It prevents waggle".
I asked about using english most of the time to pocket shots....he said: "if it helps you make the shot, then use it".
I asked him about pre-shot routine...he said, "I line up exactly the same way every time... every time the table permits it. If it helps you make the shot, then use it"
I asked him about aiming at fractions of balls like the old Mosconi method...He said: "If it helps you make the shot, then use it. Use whatever will help you make the shot over and over. If it helps you make the shot, then use it. Staying at the table requires consistency...and that's what you want to do. Stay at the table."
After his discussion, he busted the balls wide open, took cueball in hand and ran 80.
I made a bet with another railbird. I'm thinking..."No way is he going to even run 50 right out of the gate under the lights".
I lost 20 bucks.
I never had a pre shot routine, half the time I would grab the chalk and look at my next shot, half the time I would just go ahead and shoot, most of the time to good effect.
I started out early. Maybe 15 or 16, self taught 100%(until recently), I won many tournaments, got better and better, mostly by watching better players, because most of them were not going to give you advice unless you paid for it on the table...luckily I never became one of those guys. Joined the Army, kept shooting all over the place, still never a pre shot routine. Gave up the game for 17 or so years while I raised my son, started back up about a year and a half ago.
Seems over the course of 17 blank years you forget alot. Honestly if not for youtube I probably would have never picked up a stick again. Saw some of Stan Shuffett's stuff, figured I would go try to put it to use...though it was well put together and very inspirational I wasted about a week on it til I realized it wasn't for me...but at least it got me to thinking about pool again, and I can't thank the guy enough for that.
Found Tor Lowry's stuff, most of which was about how I originally learned to shoot pool, a lot of little gems in his videos. Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see a pre shot routine discussed.
Honestly the best bit of advice I have found (and the only thing I do EVERY single shot other than practice strokes) I have only seen twice, once on an old Jerry Breisath video, and once from the Black widow and it had to do with chin-lock...mostly a euphemism for locking in on your target once you have determined the spot on the object ball you want to hit. I cannot emphasize how much that one little piece of advice has helped my game.
I still wouldn't say I have a pre-shot routine, but closer to such I would imagine.
In the last year and a half I have gone from a 4 in TAP to a 6, and I can hang with anyone that walks into the pool hall (though I don't play much for money, a lot of the better players like to judge their speed against me) So I get plenty of good competition.
I will try to set up a pre-shot routine, or maybe pay attention and see if I already do one that I am not conscious of and get back to this thread.
I started out early. Maybe 15 or 16, self taught 100%(until recently), I won many tournaments, got better and better, mostly by watching better players, because most of them were not going to give you advice unless you paid for it on the table...luckily I never became one of those guys. Joined the Army, kept shooting all over the place, still never a pre shot routine. Gave up the game for 17 or so years while I raised my son, started back up about a year and a half ago.
Seems over the course of 17 blank years you forget alot. Honestly if not for youtube I probably would have never picked up a stick again. Saw some of Stan Shuffett's stuff, figured I would go try to put it to use...though it was well put together and very inspirational I wasted about a week on it til I realized it wasn't for me...but at least it got me to thinking about pool again, and I can't thank the guy enough for that.
Found Tor Lowry's stuff, most of which was about how I originally learned to shoot pool, a lot of little gems in his videos. Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see a pre shot routine discussed.
Honestly the best bit of advice I have found (and the only thing I do EVERY single shot other than practice strokes) I have only seen twice, once on an old Jerry Breisath video, and once from the Black widow and it had to do with chin-lock...mostly a euphemism for locking in on your target once you have determined the spot on the object ball you want to hit. I cannot emphasize how much that one little piece of advice has helped my game.
I still wouldn't say I have a pre-shot routine, but closer to such I would imagine.
In the last year and a half I have gone from a 4 in TAP to a 6, and I can hang with anyone that walks into the pool hall (though I don't play much for money, a lot of the better players like to judge their speed against me) So I get plenty of good competition.
I will try to set up a pre-shot routine, or maybe pay attention and see if I already do one that I am not conscious of and get back to this thread.
Ok. This is probably the best advice I've seen on here in a while. I saw this and started thinking that my natural tempo is really fast...which was fine when I was younger but maybe I just don't see the shot as fast as I used to...so I did this tonight. Got on the shot and counted to 5. Or really just let me eyes settle in the right aim point. Then fire. I was making everything. Playing one pocket and I just kept rolling on long shots off the rail. Off angle and even a lot of spot shots. It was great!
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The closer one can get to doing all left-brain thinking and planning from the standing erect position and to feeling and enjoying the shot in the stance, the better.
My take on it is that Ray is a practical kind of guy and I can easily imagine him saying to use whatever helps you.
I also think that there is no disconnect between saying he does not have a PSR and that he lines up the same for every shot. That could easily mean he lines up with the cue one way or the other without a set pattern of movements.
My point was that contrary to your original statement, not everyone utilizes a PSR. Somewhat obviously, not everyone uses an aiming system either.
Lou Figueroa
Ray might not have used a PSR but you've stated for years that you do. Here's your chance and Dan's to shine because the name of this thread is "WHAT IS YOUR PSR".
Both of you have claimed to be non-aimers who use no system or visuals other than
"see the shot and shoot".
In a number of aiming threads you've posted nothing about aiming but the virtues of HAMB and watching where the ball goes after hitting it in a certain place.
How about both of you lay your PSR out in detail from seeing the table layout, deciding what you want to do after making the ball, how you get in line with the shot,
where and how you place your feet, how you angle the body, what the angle of your upper arm is and how far the arm is from the body, how much you bend at the waist and where your head/chin is above the cue.
All of that would be what the thread asked for and what both of you advocate over aiming. What do you think about and do?
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I agree 100%. Lou is just being Lou and being "difficult".
Everybody who plays good pool has some sort of "PSR", whether they know it or not. It may not consist of a checklist with multiple steps, but they have something that makes them capable of doing the same thing accurately and consistently.
This is a typical straw man argument. I wish some people here would get their facts straight before posting. I, for one, never said I had no PSR, and Lou, I am confident, has never said that, either. Lou has said that he just gets down on the shot at the right angle to pocket the ball, and does not consciously pick an aim point or imagine a ghost ball or anything like that. Brian said he is the same, as am I. Not distinguishing a spot on the ball to hit is not the same as saying you have no PSR. Of course everybody has a PSR and EVEN Lou would not say otherwise.
My routine is what it has to be in order to deliver a straight cue stroke. That routine/PSR is very different from what I used to do. I'm close to my goal but I wouldn't say I have settled in on a permanent PSR. I can say that I now shoot preferentially under my non-dominant eye. If I wanted to change back to my dominant eye I'm sure I could but it would take awhile for it to feel natural again.
My routine is what it has to be in order to deliver a straight cue stroke. That routine/PSR is very different from what I used to do. I'm close to my goal but I wouldn't say I have settled in on a permanent PSR. I can say that I now shoot preferentially under my non-dominant eye. If I wanted to change back to my dominant eye I'm sure I could but it would take awhile for it to feel natural again.
Some players are very consistent in their PSR, to the point of appearing robotic.
But many others get down one way one shot, then another the next. Some guys get down on the shot, then raise up, and get back down again. The greatest 14.1 player of all time ran from one shot to next, often walking backwards to get into position for the next. And Ray Martin, who most certainly would know what a PSR is, has clearly and definitively said he didn't have/use one.
If you read the literature, you will find that in spite of some folks claiming the universal absolute necessity and critical importance of a PSR, most instructionals on the game give the subject nary a mention, usually just providing generic instructions on stance and balance. You would think if a PSR were THAT important it would be in the first chapter in bold letters at the front of each book authored by the masters, but alas...
Lou Figueroa
Some folks I've watched have a different PSR from what they used to... even on every shot they make.
Sometimes they'll look at the shot first, then bend over. The next shot they'll bend over before they look.
The next shot they may hesitate and fidget with the cue. The next time hurry the shot without hesitation.
They're inconsistent. Some days they play well, other days not so good. They have no repeatable PSR.
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er, well actually, I would say udderwise :-o Some guys are just natural talents and could run balls standing on their heads every other shot. But could the average human being pool player benefit from deploying a consistent PSR, sure.
Lou Figueroa
This is an excellent point -- some guys who think they have a consistent PSR do not.
You need a close examination of video to see all the variations they're using, often depending on the shot at hand, but it's there. As an example, it's why some guys start out strong and then weaken -- they think they're doing their PSR but are actually doing a variety of different things from shot to shot, or they allow their PSR to morph as a session goes on. Sometimes it's because they speed up, or slow dow, get physically tired, or just pay less attention to executing as time, the session, or tournament goes on.
Lou Figueroa
Well, as usual, I suppose a definition of terms is appropriate. If you say a PSR is a fixed set of steps taken on every shot, then, I agree that not everybody has a PSR. However, I believe everybody who plays at any decent level has a particular set of steps they take on most every shot. Take the John Schmidt example. He said he puts the cue down in the correct spot and then does what is necessary to put his body around that alignment. As far as I'm concerned, that is a PSR. He also talks about taking 3 strokes before most every shot, so you could add that to his PSR.
Well, if we are going to be that broad, sure, everyone leans over the table and hits the CB after a waggle or two
Lou Figueroa