What is your PSR?

[Dan White]

Well, if we are going to be that broad, sure, everyone leans over the table and hits the CB after a waggle or two

Lou Figueroa

Well now that would be a PSW.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Ray might not have used a PSR but you've stated for years that you do. Here's your chance and Dan's to shine because the name of this thread is "WHAT IS YOUR PSR".

Both of you have claimed to be non-aimers who use no system or visuals other than
"see the shot and shoot".

In a number of aiming threads you've posted nothing about aiming but the virtues of HAMB and watching where the ball goes after hitting it in a certain place.

How about both of you lay your PSR out in detail from seeing the table layout, deciding what you want to do after making the ball, how you get in line with the shot,
where and how you place your feet, how you angle the body, what the angle of your upper arm is and how far the arm is from the body, how much you bend at the waist and where your head/chin is above the cue.

All of that would be what the thread asked for and what both of you advocate over aiming. What do you think about and do?

I guess Lou and Dan are both going to say they have me on IGNORE and didn't see above. Funny how Dan always sees what he wants to see and makes posts back.

IGNORE only blocks out somebody on the list when logged in, not when logged out and just scouring the threads and posts. Come on guys, step up to the plate and describe your PSR in detail.

 

[BC21]

er, well actually, I would say udderwise :-o Some guys are just natural talents and could run balls standing on their heads every other shot. But could the average human being pool player benefit from deploying a consistent PSR, sure.

Lou Figueroa

My thought exactly. If you don't follow a specific ritualistic set of moves on each shot, I wouldn't say you have an inconsistent PSR.....I'd say you haven't developed a PSR. And, despite popular opinion, you could still be a fabulously consistent player. MOST pool players could definitely benefit from a solid and consistent PSR, but assuming EVERY great player uses a PSR or needs one is simply not the reality of it.

A few years back I played quite a lot of pool with Larry Neudecker, aka Baltimore Red, a top-notch player. (I usually watched/studied more than I actually played ). He was fast and loose and incredibly accurate and consistent. If he had a PSR it was different on every shot! Lol.....which means it wasn't a routine.

 

[Low500]

Ray might not have used a PSR but you've stated for years that you do. Here's your chance and Dan's to shine because the name of this thread is "WHAT IS YOUR PSR".
Both of you have claimed to be non-aimers who use no system or visuals other than
"see the shot and shoot".
In a number of aiming threads you've posted nothing about aiming but the virtues of HAMB and watching where the ball goes after hitting it in a certain place.
How about both of you lay your PSR out in detail from seeing the table layout, deciding what you want to do after making the ball, how you get in line with the shot,
where and how you place your feet, how you angle the body, what the angle of your upper arm is and how far the arm is from the body, how much you bend at the waist and where your head/chin is above the cue.
All of that would be what the thread asked for and what both of you advocate over aiming. What do you think about and do?

-------------

 

[BC21]

.........
This is what is meant by preshot routine...for people to preach that the most consistent players don't do this is merely arguing just for the amusement of it, I guess.
........

Most of us are reasonable. No one has said that the most consistent players do not use a PSR. We've said not ALL of them do. We could point out a few that do not. But it doesn't contribute to the thread.

 

[lfigueroa]

My thought exactly. If you don't follow a specific ritualistic set of moves on each shot, I wouldn't say you have an inconsistent PSR.....I'd say you haven't developed a PSR. And, despite popular opinion, you could still be a fabulously consistent player. MOST pool players could definitely benefit from a solid and consistent PSR, but assuming EVERY great player uses a PSR or needs one is simply not the reality of it.

A few years back I played quite a lot of pool with Larry Neudecker, aka Baltimore Red, a top-notch player. (I usually watched/studied more than I actually played ). He was fast and loose and incredibly accurate and consistent. If he had a PSR it was different on every shot! Lol.....which means it wasn't a routine.

Agreed. I think it has to be a specific set of actions to be considered a PSR.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Dan White]

I guess Lou and Dan are both going to say they have me on IGNORE and didn't see above. Funny how Dan always sees what he wants to see and makes posts back.

IGNORE only blocks out somebody on the list when logged in, not when logged out and just scouring the threads and posts. Come on guys, step up to the plate and describe your PSR in detail.

I've never had you on ignore. I've merely ignored you for months on end when you chose to act in a childish way, arguing and insulting for no apparent reason. When you are more reasonable, which you are capable of on occasion, I'm happy to engage in a conversation. I've described my PSR briefly on occasion, but I'm not sure why anybody cares exactly what I do anyway.

I'll give you the edited version since it's getting late:
In a standing position I look at a straight line going through the cue ball and object ball and into the rail. This gives me a reference point as I view the pocket and determine the actual shot line. This step may well not be necessary, but it is very quick and I don't see that it hurts anything at this point. Then, I place my front foot as I get down on the shot and shift into the predetermined shot line. From there is is a matter of confirming that everything (eye position, body, arm etc) is in the right position (which should be the same for every shot other than when obstructed). I take a couple of small practice strokes and make sure the grip is relaxed before taking the shot. That's most of it.

 

[lfigueroa]

What you're hoping for isn't going to happen, young man.
However, if you enter IPT2005 into youtube, you'll be able to see Ray Martin drilling Effren Reyes in 8 Ball......also you can see him shooting down Grady Matthews in straights (by scrolling around a little.) You'll see Jimmy Rempe, Archer, all the greats doing their exact same preshot routines every single time...over and over and over.
Simple observations will reveal that Martin (and Grady and Reyes) do almost exactly the same thing every time they walk up to the shot....over and over and over. Martin makes a lot of use of that fist bridge with the little finger extended (which was prominent in the 3-cushion game by Welker Cochran). Over and over and over...his head is tilted exactly the same way...his legs and feet are in the same positions.....over and over and over. This is what he told us when I asked him about a preshot routine and its importance......stay at the table with consistency. No pool player makes those high runs over and over and over without some form of routine that works. They may say "I don't do that"....but it's there, whether they admit it or not.
This is what is meant by preshot routine...for people to preach that the most consistent players don't do this is merely arguing just for the amusement of it, I guess.
On the other hand, if you want to see two players with no preshot routines, no repeatable method of aiming shots, choking to death, and dogging their guts out.....search for the fabled $10,000 one pocket match between two shortstops who frequent this forum.
That's about the best you'll be able to do to catch a contrast.
Keep on truckin'
:thumbup:

Funny how your "simple observations" can't pick up that I was using a very specific and consistent PSR every shot during my match with John ;-)

As to the quality of play, well, all I can say is that I was a $20 a game player playing for $10,000 for the first time in my life before a live audience in the Accu-Stats Arena, with an online audience of 800, after months of online haranguing. Still, I feel I acquitted myself well, occasionally running some balls and hitting several multi-rail game winning banks.

Soooo... where is your video? Where can I watch you playing for big dough or at least running the 100 that you alluded to, now that you've learnt Stan's system, to wit: "I never ran 100 in straights in my life until I put your CTE thing into use along with making sure my dominant right eye was in control..and not relying on that Willie Mosconi thing of both eyes over the cue."

I would like to see your PSR.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Dan White]

What you're hoping for isn't going to happen, young man.
However, if you enter IPT2005 into youtube, you'll be able to see Ray Martin drilling Effren Reyes in 8 Ball......also you can see him shooting down Grady Matthews in straights (by scrolling around a little.) You'll see Jimmy Rempe, Archer, all the greats doing their exact same preshot routines every single time...over and over and over.
Simple observations will reveal that Martin (and Grady and Reyes) do almost exactly the same thing every time they walk up to the shot....over and over and over. Martin makes a lot of use of that fist bridge with the little finger extended (which was prominent in the 3-cushion game by Welker Cochran). Over and over and over...his head is tilted exactly the same way...his legs and feet are in the same positions.....over and over and over. This is what he told us when I asked him about a preshot routine and its importance......stay at the table with consistency. No pool player makes those high runs over and over and over without some form of routine that works. They may say "I don't do that"....but it's there, whether they admit it or not.
This is what is meant by preshot routine...for people to preach that the most consistent players don't do this is merely arguing just for the amusement of it, I guess.
On the other hand, if you want to see two players with no preshot routines, no repeatable method of aiming shots, choking to death, and dogging their guts out.....search for the fabled $10,000 one pocket match between two shortstops who frequent this forum.
That's about the best you'll be able to do to catch a contrast.
Keep on truckin'
:thumbup:

Mr. Lowenstein: I don't fully expect a reply as you apparently have me on "ignore" but if not you might consider dialing your attitude back a few notches. You've been in this forum for what, 6 months, with less than 200 posts and you're talking about other members who have been here for well over a decade as if you know anything about them... just a suggestion.

Also, I am continually amazed at your breadth of knowledge of instructors and first-hand accounts of professional players, yet this "Stan Shuffet guy" as you've called him, seems to have completely escaped your consciousness until you started posting here. Odd. Anyway that's one of the reasons I had doubts about your motives here. Even so, I now fully accept that you are just another member here and nothing more. It would be nice if you could take a more reasoned attitude toward other, long term, AZ members as our friend Spider Dave seems to be doing.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I've never had you on ignore.

Glad to hear it.

I've merely ignored you for months on end

Now that's a lie. You may not have posted for a week at a time but only because you knew you would get buried based on the subject matter or flow of the thread. I can't fault you for that because it's always wise for any of us to pick and choose the right times.

when you chose to act in a childish way, arguing and insulting for no apparent reason.

Do you mean like when you and others argue and insult about CTE or other areas of aiming which you have no apparent reason since you guys don't have a clue to the total picture of how it's performed?

When you are more reasonable, which you are capable of on occasion, I'm happy to engage in a conversation. I've described my PSR briefly on occasion, but I'm not sure why anybody cares exactly what I do anyway.

Because this is the title of the thread and you've stated how a good PSR is more important than any type of aiming. I'm trying to figure out what makes you tick.

I'll give you the edited version since it's getting late:
In a standing position I look at a straight line going through the cue ball and object ball and into the rail.

This gives me a reference point as I view the pocket and determine the actual shot line.

You do realize the shot line you're referring to is also the start of some type of aiming that needs to be done to have the CB strike the OB to move it down the shot line to the pocket, don't you?

This step may well not be necessary, but it is very quick and I don't see that it hurts anything at this point.

I can totally understand this since I started doing it myself many years ago. Before I learned CTE, Hal taught one of his other aiming systems to me which had 3 alignment visuals on the OB. The same 3 that all the science geeks and self proclaimed wizards on RSB claimed were contact points which had a very limited shot angle success rate.

But looking at the straight into the rail shot line gave me the correct choice for which of those 3 alignment visuals to use based on the cut angle. 3 alignment visuals for aiming always was much simpler and faster than 10 with contact points or about the same number with fractions.

It made no sense and seemed illogical when Hal introduced it. Absolutely could NOT work! But it did! And got better and better as I became more proficient and used to seeing visuals in a totally different manner than all the years prior.

Then, I place my front foot as I get down on the shot and shift into the predetermined shot line. From there is is a matter of confirming that everything (eye position, body, arm etc) is in the right position (which should be the same for every shot other than when obstructed). I take a couple of small practice strokes and make sure the grip is relaxed before taking the shot. That's most of it.

OK, good stuff. Lets take it a little further since your primary focus is the STROKE. What are you specifically doing either with the angle of your body to the shot, or the upper arm and elbow from the distance to your body to insure it doesn't float outside the shot line away from your lat as you stroke back?

My PSR always starts by looking at the next 3 or 4 balls to determine what the correct natural angles need to be with the least amount of work and spin for a runout.
Preplanning and visualization of the table layout with the angles is my most important PSR.

You say you don't need an aiming system? I DO! I really don't think about anything in how I set up or position any part of my body because I have done it a million times. If it looks the same each time it's just habit and visual aiming alignments that lead my body not thought of feet and body parts getting it there.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Mr. Lowenstein: I don't fully expect a reply as you apparently have me on "ignore" but if not you might consider dialing your attitude back a few notches. You've been in this forum for what, 6 months, with less than 200 posts and you're talking about other members who have been here for well over a decade as if you know anything about them... just a suggestion.

Also, I am continually amazed at your breadth of knowledge of instructors and first-hand accounts of professional players, yet this "Stan Shuffet guy" as you've called him, seems to have completely escaped your consciousness until you started posting here. Odd. Anyway that's one of the reasons I had doubts about your motives here. Even so, I now fully accept that you are just another member here and nothing more. It would be nice if you could take a more reasoned attitude toward other, long term, AZ members as our friend Spider Dave seems to be doing.

What was your purpose in dragging my name into this post?
I've always had a reasoned attitude toward all members who presented themselves with open minds and a clear desire to learn how to perfect something for their own use instead of bashing it to continue a 20 year long flame war.

Btw and Fyi, I wasn't issued a 12 hour ban or 24 hour ban as you've been lucky enough to receive. The one I got for a week wasn't even because I broke the rules or argued. I had to be the first person ever banned for reporting posts of another member that did break the rules because I was deemed to be "snarky" in my wording of the report. Figure that one out! But you probably already know what I just said.

 

[Low500]

The Ignore feature is your friend

What was your purpose in dragging my name into this post?
I've always had a reasoned attitude toward all members who presented themselves with open minds and a clear desire to learn how to perfect something for their own use instead of bashing it to continue a 20 year long flame war.
Btw and Fyi, I wasn't issued a 12 hour ban or 24 hour ban as you've been lucky enough to receive. The one I got for a week wasn't even because I broke the rules or argued. I had to be the first person ever banned for reporting posts of another member that did break the rules because I was deemed to be "snarky" in my wording of the report. Figure that one out! But you probably already know what I just said.

----------------

 

[Dan White]

I couldn't agree more! It would be very nice if he would put me on ignore. He won't do that however because he is really only here to vent his frustrations by arguing with other people over silly nothing things.. He will continue to be banned year after year after year for this reason. I gave him the benefit of the doubt and just look at what he did with it. Point made.

Mister Spider,
The best move is just to put the ones who're constantly in a hassle (veiled or wide open) on 'ignore' and be done with it.
After that, there is no way to get drawn into a fight which won't accomplish or change a darn thing.
Some of 'em simply cannot handle the pressure of opposing viewpoints.
That's just life in a web poolroom, I suppose.
This is really a fun place though...I enjoy it very much.
Keep on truckin'
:thumbup:

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I couldn't agree more! It would be very nice if he would put me on ignore. He won't do that however because he is really only here to vent his frustrations by arguing with other people over silly nothing things.. He will continue to be banned year after year after year for this reason. I gave him the benefit of the doubt and just look at what he did with it. Point made.

Why are you answering Low500 and dragging me into something again instead of confronting me yourself?

The primary reason I'm even here at all is because YOU and the likes of YOU keep blasting Stan, CTE, and Hal in a round about way through all of this. I am NOT going to put any of them or it out to the wolves who lurk here and seem to have control. I will stand up for my friends and what they've created and refined for the world of pool. It's one of the greatest systems for aiming that has ever been developed.

When Stan has his book published and ready for sale as well as setting up his own forum and Facebook page where he can keep out all the dregs, I'm gone forever.

You can bank on that. Until then, I'm sure you'll be reporting every single one of my posts to the mods just to make sure something sticks and I get another ban.

But it works both ways. You can rest assured I'll be doing the same with you or anyone else.

You've made TWO posts about me to someone else. BAITING? If anyone should have been banned more in the past as well as recently it should be you!

You could have responded to what I wrote about your PSR but NO, you took the LOW ROAD on these posts.

 

[emccune]

I couldn't agree more! It would be very nice if he would put me on ignore. He won't do that however because he is really only here to vent his frustrations by arguing with other people over silly nothing things.. He will continue to be banned year after year after year for this reason. I gave him the benefit of the doubt and just look at what he did with it. Point made.

Hi Dan!!! Just dropped by after many years to see if any old friends still post. See you and Lou are still hard at it. I was re-reading some old RSB posts on PSR this summer cause I have started practicing again after a few years off (still played a bit just didn't practice) and thought to check here too. Saw this topic right away and, of course, saw you and Lou posting here. Did you ever hit your 100 balls at 14.1? Before Lou did it twice in a row?

Ed McCune

 

[emccune]

Agreed. I think it has to be a specific set of actions to be considered a PSR.

Lou Figueroa

Hi Lou. Long time!! I Stopped being serious about pool for a few years and my PSR went to heck. Trying to get it back as I joined a tough league again and have forgotten lots of this stuff. This led me here and LO I see a couple of old friends still posting!!

Ed McCune

 

[lfigueroa]

Hi Lou. Long time!! I Stopped being serious about pool for a few years and my PSR went to heck. Trying to get it back as I joined a tough league again and have forgotten lots of this stuff. This led me here and LO I see a couple of old friends still posting!!

Ed McCune

Yo! Ed, how they hangin'? Good to see you here.

There are a few RSBers around, though some are undercover. Pat is on sabbatical but due back early next year (just in time for the release of Stan's new book, lol).

Hang out for a while. Good times, as you can see.

Lou Figueroa

 

[emccune]

Yo! Ed, how they hangin'? Good to see you here.

There are a few RSBers around, though some are undercover. Pat is on sabbatical but due back early next year (just in time for the release of Stan's new book, lol).

Hang out for a while. Good times, as you can see.

Lou Figueroa

Pat is out again? What for this time? No don't tell me. Must be this aiming forum. Seems to bring out the best in people. Ha ha. Seems like the same old arguments going round and round really. I started playing with a friend on diamond tables. 7 ft but still way tighter and faster than the valleys i have been on forever and found my stroke was...basically...gone. No psr or stroke so i have been rebuilding from scratch again this summer. Pretty much got it back now tho. Just in time for the winter league on these tables to start.

Had to completely overhaul stance, stroke, psr approach...everything.

 

[stan shuffett]

Yo! Ed, how they hangin'? Good to see you here.

There are a few RSBers around, though some are undercover. Pat is on sabbatical but due back early next year (just in time for the release of Stan's new book, lol).

Hang out for a while. Good times, as you can see.

Lou Figueroa

Oh Boy! I just know that PJ must be chomping at the bit at the thought of tearing CTE apart as a no- feel, no guess-work system.

PJ will have his work cut out as you and Dan have already labeled Poolology as a no-feel, no-guess work system. Please correct me if Im wrong. I'm pretty sure that Dan is all in with Poollology as having no feel. I'm not quite sure about your take on it concerning feel or not.

One thing is for certain, PJ will go to war against my work. I'd say that with Dan's endorsement of Poolology as having no feel, there's a good chance that PJ will discover that Poolology has no feel as well. Once PJ recognizes his first no feel system for real, and that should be an overnight breeze for his mind, maybe just maybe that will soften his attach against CTE.

I am on record once again right here as declaring that CTE foundationally is a no feel- no guess work system.

Stan Shuffett

 

[BC21]

Oh Boy! I just know that PJ must be chomping at the bit at the thought of tearing CTE apart as a no- feel, no guess-work system.

PJ will have his work cut out as you and Dan have already labeled Poolology as a no-feel, no-guess work system. Please correct me if Im wrong. I'm pretty sure that Dan is all in with Poollology as having no feel. I'm not quite sure about your take on it concerning feel or not.

One thing is for certain, PJ will go to war against my work. I'd say that with Dan's endorsement of Poolology as having no feel, there's a good chance that PJ will discover that Poolology has no feel as well. Once PJ recognizes his first no feel system for real, maybe just maybe that will soften his attach against CTE.

I am on record once again right here as declaring that CTE foundationally is a no feel- no guess work system.

Stan Shuffett

So with CTE a player does not have to use any "micro" pivots or slight adjustments as described in some of your vids? I realize you have been working out the bugs and getting it all tuned up since recording some of those older vids. So I'm sure, for those that learn how to do it, experience probably eliminates any guesswork.

With the method in Poolology a player simply gets the shot ratio, the fractional hit needed to pocket the ball, then aims for the correct aim point to achieve that hit. There is no guesswork, no need for feel unless the ob needs to be directed toward a particular portion of the pocket. But the ultimate goal of the system is to help players develop a feel for pocketing balls, eventually just seeing the shots without having to think about any system.