Zero X System

Black Cat 5791

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You've got me wondering about what could be on these videos. Are these kicking systems more efficient to use than the other kicking systems that are normally used?

I'm talking about time spent to calculate. I have maybe 25 different systems I use for all varieties of kicks, and they are all very accurate and can be calculated quickly. But there is some degree of calculation. The quicker the better, so maybe the Zero X could even faster calculations!

That's a tuff question, since you already have the full diamond system down. However, I found his number system easier to understand. I'm willing to shelf what I've been doing and start implimenting his to augment my current knowledge.

Give it a look, definately can't hurt.

Black Cat :cool:
 

ChrisBanks

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That's a tuff question, since you already have the full diamond system down. However, I found his number system easier to understand. I'm willing to shelf what I've been doing and start implimenting his to augment my current knowledge.

Give it a look, definately can't hurt.

Black Cat :cool:

This man uses one system for every kick? You say diamond SYSTEM, not SYSTEMS.

For example, short rail SID, long rail SID, corner 5, 2-rail plus all have different numbers assigned to the diamonds. So we would not use the word SYSTEM, but SYSTEMS.

But the way you are talking, every kick can be accomplished throught the same system?

I'm not arguing, I'm just interested because it sounds impossible to break everything down to just one system.
 

Neil

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Watched the free video. Very well done. However, he does get some of the material wrong, and other parts he partially gets, but seems to be missing the whole picture on it. Still had an overall good presentation of the basics that have been covered on here many times. Hard to go wrong getting it at that price.
 

bbb

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i bought the video and had some problems getting to view it again
i contacted the website and got a reply yesterday and today (christmas)
hows that for customer service
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
 

bbb

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This man uses one system for every kick? You say diamond SYSTEM, not SYSTEMS.

For example, short rail SID, long rail SID, corner 5, 2-rail plus all have different numbers assigned to the diamonds. So we would not use the word SYSTEM, but SYSTEMS.

But the way you are talking, every kick can be accomplished throught the same system?

I'm not arguing, I'm just interested because it sounds impossible to break everything down to just one system.

chris banks
i use most of deadaims kicking academy stuff for kicking
this videos approach is alittle different and some of the numbering is different
there were definitely some types of kicks i thought i would try out to see if i can incorporate it into my working data base
he shows one nifty calculation for figuring how to hit a ball in the open table on a 3 rail kick that doesnt involve tracks
its worth the money and time to watch
if you only pick up one thing you have added to you arsenal
jmho
 

Bob Jewett

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I bought the Zero-X banking download. I thought it was well produced and has a lot of useful info. It includes an extension of the plus-2 to the end rail (for third-rail contact) that I hadn't seen before. It has much better graphics than in most pool instruction videos.

There were several mistakes and omissions that if fixed would make the video much more useful. In particular, there are some definitions and practice methods that should have been included.

I'm also irritated that the presenter failed to do his homework. When he presented the corner-5 he should have called it that. It's been in print for about 100 years. Same for the plus-2. Same for the concepts of "through" and "opposite" aiming to diamonds which generally were handled inexactly and inconsistently and were not named.

One thing that was not mentioned is how the table will affect the angles. That is one of the most important concepts for a player just learning these systems. If Joe gets perfectly tuned up for the old 7-foot in his basement, he'll be lost on the 9-foots with new Simonis. There are standard ways to dial in corrections for these systems depending on the equipment. I don't think it's necessary to go into a lot of detail on that, but the general trends should be mentioned. For example, on tables with new cloth the 60-30 cross table line with a little running english does not go to the corner and the failure of the ball to do so is not the fault of the student.
 

robsnotes4u

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I think we all need to remember no system is perfect due to a lot of factors which is why a person needs to spend some time figuring out how the specific table is banking.

A table may bank long, then change in an hour do to temp, humidity, etc.

The systems aren't perfect on my 8 foot olhausen, but I was able to adjust, and I know when I play on the 7 foot diamonds, or 9 foot Gabriel's at Fargo Billiards I will need to adjust. I do know the systems give me confidence, and an educated process, which is better than guessing. As our house pro, Rory, always says to me, "do the math"


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Neil

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OK, what did he get wrong and then only partly right?

Let me re-iterate that he did a good job on the video. However, I strongly believe that if someone is going to do a video, they should at least take a look at what info is out there, and make sure that the info on their own video is factual and true and not just their own belief. If they want to put their own beliefs out there, that's fine as long as it is stated as such.

In his free video, he refers to the pendulum stroke as the compact stroke. He apparently doesn't realize all the info out there about it. When it comes to aiming, he advocates the ghost ball. That's all well and good, but very, very, few people actually do use the ghost ball to aim. It's great for illustration, but not much more than that for most. He then goes on to say that any other system won't work. Well, he is dead wrong on that one. There are quite a few aiming systems out there that do work just fine. He then states that they won't work because you have to use english sometimes. Well, ghost ball won't work then either for the same reason.

He also doesn't seem to realize there is a thing called CIT, (collision induced throw), which means the ghost ball really doesn't work as he describes either. It also means that you can't make a rail shot the way he describes.

He says the way he applies english is a big secret. Well, it's not. It's called BHE or back hand english, and has been around for a long time. He also doesn't understand it by the way he describes it and uses it. He also stated there is a lot there you won't see anywhere else. Yet, I couldn't find a single item that isn't in almost any worthwhile book, or hasn't been talked about a lot on here. And, when showing how to get "on line", if you notice, he ISN'T on line with the cue. His cue doesn't get on line until he steers it there in the final stroke.

His explanation of how to get a stun shot was a little lacking. Rarely are you going to actually hit dead center cb. And, he doesn't seem to be familiar with the term tangent line. A number of times in his pattern play, he stated that a stun shot will go here, yet, in reality, a stun shot would not go where he thinks it would. Prime example is when he has an ob a little off the rail and is hitting it at an angle. He states that the stun shot will bring it straight across table. It doesn't unless the ob is on the rail.

He also does not seem to know about collision induced spin on the cb. He shows cutting a ball in the side, and the stun shot would make the cb go straight up table, and then straight back down the same line. It won't do that. Cutting a ball puts spin on the cb. So, when you stun it up table, when it hits the rail, it will have spin on it and come off the rail on an angle. If you want it to come back down the same line, you either have to slow roll with some distance or put a little inside english on it to counter the outside from the shot induced spin.

Some of this may seem nitpicky to some on here. Sorry, but I don't. If you are going to make a video, make sure that you do a little research first, and know that what info you are putting out there is factual. Otherwise, you will get people citing you as a source and perpetuating myths. If I really wanted to get nitpicky, there are a number of little things, but I don't see the need to go there.
 

Bob Jewett

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... It's called BHE or back hand english, and has been around for a long time. ...
The earliest diagram of BHE I know of was published in 1839. It's remarkable how many have overlooked it since then.
 

Blue Hog ridr

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Bob, I may be mistaken, old memory and such, but I believe Tor did make mention of the fact that different tables will play a different role in how this system will work.

Still trying to figure out that darn little Diamond table at the hall myself.
Can bank decent of any of the 9 footers and almost a complete wash out on the Diamond.
 

JB Cases

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Bob, I may be mistaken, old memory and such, but I believe Tor did make mention of the fact that different tables will play a different role in how this system will work.

Still trying to figure out that darn little Diamond table at the hall myself.
Can bank decent of any of the 9 footers and almost a complete wash out on the Diamond.

He did. He said that you should try to get in at least 30 minutes with the systems on an unfamiliar table to see what the conditions are.
 

robsnotes4u

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Let me re-iterate that he did a good job on the video. However, I strongly believe that if someone is going to do a video, they should at least take a look at what info is out there, and make sure that the info on their own video is factual and true and not just their own belief. If they want to put their own beliefs out there, that's fine as long as it is stated as such.

In his free video, he refers to the pendulum stroke as the compact stroke. He apparently doesn't realize all the info out there about it. When it comes to aiming, he advocates the ghost ball. That's all well and good, but very, very, few people actually do use the ghost ball to aim. It's great for illustration, but not much more than that for most. He then goes on to say that any other system won't work. Well, he is dead wrong on that one. There are quite a few aiming systems out there that do work just fine. He then states that they won't work because you have to use english sometimes. Well, ghost ball won't work then either for the same reason.

He also doesn't seem to realize there is a thing called CIT, (collision induced throw), which means the ghost ball really doesn't work as he describes either. It also means that you can't make a rail shot the way he describes.

He says the way he applies english is a big secret. Well, it's not. It's called BHE or back hand english, and has been around for a long time. He also doesn't understand it by the way he describes it and uses it. He also stated there is a lot there you won't see anywhere else. Yet, I couldn't find a single item that isn't in almost any worthwhile book, or hasn't been talked about a lot on here. And, when showing how to get "on line", if you notice, he ISN'T on line with the cue. His cue doesn't get on line until he steers it there in the final stroke.

His explanation of how to get a stun shot was a little lacking. Rarely are you going to actually hit dead center cb. And, he doesn't seem to be familiar with the term tangent line. A number of times in his pattern play, he stated that a stun shot will go here, yet, in reality, a stun shot would not go where he thinks it would. Prime example is when he has an ob a little off the rail and is hitting it at an angle. He states that the stun shot will bring it straight across table. It doesn't unless the ob is on the rail.

He also does not seem to know about collision induced spin on the cb. He shows cutting a ball in the side, and the stun shot would make the cb go straight up table, and then straight back down the same line. It won't do that. Cutting a ball puts spin on the cb. So, when you stun it up table, when it hits the rail, it will have spin on it and come off the rail on an angle. If you want it to come back down the same line, you either have to slow roll with some distance or put a little inside english on it to counter the outside from the shot induced spin.

Some of this may seem nitpicky to some on here. Sorry, but I don't. If you are going to make a video, make sure that you do a little research first, and know that what info you are putting out there is factual. Otherwise, you will get people citing you as a source and perpetuating myths. If I really wanted to get nitpicky, there are a number of little things, but I don't see the need to go there.

Then I must nit pick also. Neil if you slow roll that shot it will develop natural forward roll and head off the tangent line soon drifting about a diamond when it travels over 4 diamonds. Hit it hard and it will stay on the tangent line longer.

As far as people not using ghost ball your statement is not true. Just like in court, you certainly cant testify to what every pool player uses to aim. i know a lot of very accomplished players who do use ghost ball as one of the ways they aim. Our local pro uses it a lot on challenging shots to verify his other methods, along with figuring out kicks.

And for his kicking video, I would say it worked pretty well for him. By the way can you put up a link for your video.


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Let me re-iterate that he did a good job on the video. However, I strongly believe that if someone is going to do a video, they should at least take a look at what info is out there, and make sure that the info on their own video is factual and true and not just their own belief. If they want to put their own beliefs out there, that's fine as long as it is stated as such.

True but I didn't see anything that he said that is not true.

In his free video, he refers to the pendulum stroke as the compact stroke. He apparently doesn't realize all the info out there about it.

That is not apparent. What is clear is that he has a type of stroke that he says will cover about all situations. And in fact it does.



When it comes to aiming, he advocates the ghost ball. That's all well and good, but very, very, few people actually do use the ghost ball to aim. It's great for illustration, but not much more than that for most.

For beginners GB is the best way to describe aiming in my opinion. And actually, GB does work and can be hugely effective IF one is capable of visualizing and holding onto an imaginary ball. Using graphics as Tor does is a great way to show it on video.

He then goes on to say that any other system won't work. Well, he is dead wrong on that one. There are quite a few aiming systems out there that do work just fine. He then states that they won't work because you have to use english sometimes. Well, ghost ball won't work then either for the same reason.

I missed that part where he said this.

He also doesn't seem to realize there is a thing called CIT, (collision induced throw), which means the ghost ball really doesn't work as he describes either. It also means that you can't make a rail shot the way he describes.

That is certainly an omission but honestly most shots can be made without adjusting for CIT imo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=uOliM1fySNE#t=745s

He says the way he applies english is a big secret. Well, it's not. It's called BHE or back hand english, and has been around for a long time. He also doesn't understand it by the way he describes it and uses it. He also stated there is a lot there you won't see anywhere else. Yet, I couldn't find a single item that isn't in almost any worthwhile book, or hasn't been talked about a lot on here. And, when showing how to get "on line", if you notice, he ISN'T on line with the cue. His cue doesn't get on line until he steers it there in the final stroke.

I need to watch that section again. But as for BHE being a secret, it kind of was for a long time. Bob Jewett says that he saw it referenced in 1870 but I don't think he has ever published that reference for us to see. Since 1870 up until about ten years ago though it wasn't put in any books that I read and certainly not in Bob Byrne's Standard Book of Pool which is/was sort of a template for instruction books.

His explanation of how to get a stun shot was a little lacking. Rarely are you going to actually hit dead center cb. And, he doesn't seem to be familiar with the term tangent line. A number of times in his pattern play, he stated that a stun shot will go here, yet, in reality, a stun shot would not go where he thinks it would. Prime example is when he has an ob a little off the rail and is hitting it at an angle. He states that the stun shot will bring it straight across table. It doesn't unless the ob is on the rail.

Dude, this is a free video and it's not the be all end all of pool instruction. If someone were to diligently apply the lessons contained they would become a decent enough player. The positives here far far far outweigh the negatives.

Also I don't understand where he shot any shots that don't go where he said they will go. On the video he demonstrated them. Do you think that he is intentionally misleading folks to make his point?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=uOliM1fySNE#t=745s

He also does not seem to know about collision induced spin on the cb. He shows cutting a ball in the side, and the stun shot would make the cb go straight up table, and then straight back down the same line. It won't do that. Cutting a ball puts spin on the cb. So, when you stun it up table, when it hits the rail, it will have spin on it and come off the rail on an angle. If you want it to come back down the same line, you either have to slow roll with some distance or put a little inside english on it to counter the outside from the shot induced spin.

You're already way over my head because I didn't know about CIS on the cue ball either. From what I saw the balls did exactly what he said they would do according to how he was describing the way he was hitting them.

Some of this may seem nitpicky to some on here. Sorry, but I don't. If you are going to make a video, make sure that you do a little research first, and know that what info you are putting out there is factual.

Otherwise, you will get people citing you as a source and perpetuating myths. If I really wanted to get nitpicky, there are a number of little things, but I don't see the need to go there.

You should be able to review the material and the material should be accurate. As far as being cited as a source.....Neil, this is the internet, all things are sources now and as such all things are up for discussion.

My opinion is that if someone goes through this entire hour and twenty minutes and takes every single lesson to the table then they will probably be a better player for it. Any principles such as CIT and CIS will be found out pretty quickly by anyone diligent enough to practice. And as much as I personally dislike ghost ball as a method of aiming the fact is that it does work well enough for millions of players to get the concept of aiming in pool.

I wouldn't have called this video "Advanced Pool Lessons" but I can forgive the title because the information contained in it is accurate enough in my opinion and well presented maybe if enough people see it they will be inspired to play more.

Lastly, nothing is stopping you from making your own response video to address the things you pointed out. The nature of YouTube is social networking, you can make comments on the video with links to other videos that support your assertiions, you can pick apart the content and make your own response videos.

Wouldn't it be much more helpful to have you and anyone else augmenting the effort that Tor has made with your own supplemental information?
 

BryanB

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Agreed..for either a free or 8.99 video a normal person really can't complain as they will likely learn at least one thing. For those that seem to know everything, why did you even buy/download it?
 

Bob Jewett

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He did. He said that you should try to get in at least 30 minutes with the systems on an unfamiliar table to see what the conditions are.
I do remember the 30 minute remark now. What did he say about how new cloth, polished balls or humidity would affect the angles?
 

robsnotes4u

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Agreed..for either a free or 8.99 video a normal person really can't complain as they will likely learn at least one thing. For those that seem to know everything, why did you even buy/download it?

Amen!


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I do remember the 30 minute remark now. What did he say about how new cloth, polished balls or humidity would affect the angles?

Nothing, I can assume that by saying practice on the table he was basically telling the viewer to see what the conditions are and adjust for them.

I do agree that he could have been a lot more comprehensive. But as these things go when you are providing instruction on video by yourself you often miss quite a lot of what could or should be said.

As I said to Neil I think that the best thing is for anyone who thinks that more information is warranted they should simply add to the comments with links to the extra information. This is what I do when I come across videos where I think the viewers can benefit from additional information. Sometimes I will even make a video of my own in response.

It is clear to me on the rewatch that he does in fact understand CIT as he says towards the end that you have to aim differently when hitting soft or hard. And he is also familiar with "online" offerings/discussions as he says that some people online claim to have aiming systems that work with sidespin. (which is not really true I think because I only know of one Aiming System that includes side spin in the formula and to my knowledge that system has not been published anywhere on line)

But all-in-all Tor appears to be a pretty competent player who delivers the information well.

I would dearly love to see an instructor's convention where all of the BCA master instructors can get together with the non-BCA instructors who are good and compare notes and figure out standards that they can all agree on.

Would be nice to have a lot of pro-input as well. This may sound heretical and might cause Neil to blow a gasket but CJ's touch of inside technique is akin to Tor's advocacy of using the sliding ball as much as possible. Using CJ's technique works pretty much the same way as I see it.
 

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For example, on tables with new cloth the 60-30 cross table line with a little running english does not go to the corner and the failure of the ball to do so is not the fault of the student.

I can attest to that as I have new cloth and I just tried the 60-30 and it indeed does not go. I need to aim about a ball higher.
 
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