which shot spins more???

snipershot

snipershot

Go ahead.....run for it.
Silver Member
I was playing last night when an interesting question was asked: Which shot spins the cue ball more, a draw shot or a follow shot? I have seen and done both with a great deal of spin, but I can honestly say that I have no idea which one puts more spin on the ball. I think we may need some scientific input here.


Joe
 
snipershot said:
I was playing last night when an interesting question was asked: Which shot spins the cue ball more, a draw shot or a follow shot? I have seen and done both with a great deal of spin, but I can honestly say that I have no idea which one puts more spin on the ball. I think we may need some scientific input here.

Joe
Click to expand...

Joe:

Well, one thing "seems" to be sure -- and that is a follow shot doesn't actually generate "spin" on the ball at all -- it merely begins the forward rolling motion of the cue ball *immediately*, rather than sliding for a bit and "transforming" into roll when cloth friction takes over.

Mike Page has an excellent video on this:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=1WzyxhCl0vs

...with an excellent video response by Dr. Dave:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0WIYecrJ5ec

To answer your question, I would think a draw shot places more [dramatic] spin on the cue ball than a follow shot.

-Sean
 
sfleinen said:
Joe:

Well, one thing "seems" to be sure -- and that is a follow shot doesn't actually generate "spin" on the ball at all -- it merely begins the forward rolling motion of the cue ball *immediately*, rather than sliding for a bit and "transforming" into roll when cloth friction takes over.

Mike Page has an excellent video on this:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=1WzyxhCl0vs

...with an excellent video response by Dr. Dave:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0WIYecrJ5ec

To answer your question, I would think a draw shot places more [dramatic] spin on the cue ball than a follow shot.

-Sean
Click to expand...


bs, i guarantee i can spin that ball faster than how i hit it.
 
This is actually an old debate.

Either way , the answer more directly related to the question is the amount of spin in relation to CBs direction. Of course , draw wins hands down.

There is some debate over follow or forward spin. In order to create 'forward' spin , you have to spin the CB at rate greater than the natural amount of spin created during a natural roll. As in doing a rolling 'burn out' with a car. This is hard to do but I personally believe it can be done , some believe it can not.

That debate will probably commence following this post. :)
 
KillerCane said:
bs, i guarantee i can spin that ball faster than how i hit it.
Click to expand...

Video link, please. (Of your ability to generate overspin on the cue ball during a follow shot, that is.)

Honest question, not to be taken personally: did you watch Mike Page's and Dr. Dave's videos on this topic (links in the post you quoted)? Or did you only respond to the text part of my post?

High-speed video is a wonderful truth serum -- definitely eye-opening. Dr. Dave's video especially (1,000 frames per second) shows what the cue ball is doing during an extreme follow shot -- even after collision with the object ball, where the cue ball stalls for a second, and then takes off moving forward again.
 
RRfireblade said:
This is actually an old debate.

Either way , the answer more directly related to the question is the amount of spin in relation to CBs direction. Of course , draw wins hands down.

There is some debate over follow or forward spin. In order to create 'forward' spin , you have to spin the CB at rate greater than the natural amount of spin created during a natural roll. As in doing a rolling 'burn out' with a car. This is hard to do but I personally believe it can be done , some believe it can not.

That debate will probably commence following this post. :)
Click to expand...

I would think the only way this can be done, is by striking UPWARDS on the cue ball to lift it up off the cloth momentarily, and begin the spin while the cue ball is in the air. (Methinks on a standard pool table, that would not be easy due to the height of the rails/cushions. It would probably entail removing the back of one of the pockets to expose the slate shelf, placing a cue ball right on the precipice of the slate shelf, and then cueing upwards/diagonally with follow on the cue ball.)

I'm sure Mike Page, Bob Jewett, Dr. Dave, et al. can respond in a much more detailed fashion. (And here's hoping they do!)
 
sfleinen said:
Video link, please. (Of your ability to generate overspin on the cue ball during a follow shot, that is.)

Honest question, not to be taken personally: did you watch Mike Page's and Dr. Dave's videos on this topic (links in the post you quoted)? Or did you only respond to the text part of my post?

High-speed video is a wonderful truth serum -- definitely eye-opening. Dr. Dave's video especially (1,000 frames per second) shows what the cue ball is doing during an extreme follow shot -- even after collision with the object ball, where the cue ball stalls for a second, and then takes off moving forward again.
Click to expand...


i think we are talking about the same exact thing.
 
KillerCane said:
i think we are talking about the same exact thing.
Click to expand...

The problem is that the high-speed video shows that the cue ball is merely rolling, not spinning faster than its own forward motion (to use RRfireblade's analogy, the cue ball's not doing a "rolling burnout"). A stripe ball is used in the high-speed video (with the stripe rolling "end over end"), and it's readily apparent that it's just a very, very fast roll that, upon impact with the object ball, keeps rolling, even though forward motion of the cue ball has stopped momentarily.
 
sfleinen said:
The problem is that the high-speed video shows that the cue ball is merely rolling, not spinning faster than its own forward motion (to use RRfireblade's analogy, the cue ball's not doing a "rolling burnout"). A stripe ball is used in the high-speed video (with the stripe rolling "end over end"), and it's readily apparent that it's just a very, very fast roll that, upon impact with the object ball, keeps rolling, even though forward motion of the cue ball has stopped momentarily.
Click to expand...


serious? if the cue ball slows down and then accelerates again its obviously spinning faster at one point than it is moving forward.
 
KillerCane said:
serious? if the cue ball slows down and then accelerates again its obviously spinning faster at one point than it is moving forward.
Click to expand...

No, that's not what's happening. Watch the video, honestly. The stripe on the ball is moving at exactly the same speed as the ball itself is rolling forward. (I.e. the stripe doesn't "skid backwards" to indicate overspin, but rather maintains contact with the cloth at all times.) It's like a fast-moving gyroscope where the rate of spin equals the forward motion; a collision with an equal-mass object momentarily stops the forward motion, but not the gyroscopic spin, which keeps on going. Seriously, watch the video. It'll all make sense when you do. (It's a great video, btw.)
 
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Spinning Shot!

I would say an "inside spinning kill shot" has the most spin required to make the shot, I've only seen a hand full of players use it that really knew what they were doing!


David Harcrow
 
sfleinen said:
No, that's not what's happening. Watch the video, honestly. The stripe on the ball is moving at exactly the same speed as the ball itself is rolling forward. (I.e. the stripe doesn't "skid backwards" to indicate overspin, but rather maintains contact with the cloth at all times.) It's like a fast-moving gyroscope where the rate of spin equals the forward motion; a collision with an equal-mass object momentarily stops the forward motion, but not the gyroscopic spin, which keeps on going. Seriously, watch the video. It'll all make sense when you do. (It's a great video, btw.)
Click to expand...

alright you convinced me, i'll watch the video when i get home from work.
 
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sfleinen said:
David:

Much like Efren's thin-cut/3-rail-kill shot in his One Pocket match with Jason Miller at the 2006 DCC?

http://billiardsdigest.com/new_strokeofgenius/oct08index.php

Love Danny DiLiberto's commentator reaction on that one!

-Sean
Click to expand...

I've watched that match and the rest of Efren's accu-stat matches from the 2006 Derby City Classic One Pocket many times, and that was the most amazing display of pool playing skill I've ever seen.
 
sfleinen said:
No, that's not what's happening. Watch the video, honestly. The stripe on the ball is moving at exactly the same speed as the ball itself is rolling forward. (I.e. the stripe doesn't "skid backwards" to indicate overspin, but rather maintains contact with the cloth at all times.) It's like a fast-moving gyroscope where the rate of spin equals the forward motion; a collision with an equal-mass object momentarily stops the forward motion, but not the gyroscopic spin, which keeps on going. Seriously, watch the video. It'll all make sense when you do. (It's a great video, btw.)
Click to expand...

I just watched the videos. The one with the high speed camera states that there WAS overspin. It states that plainly. It also shows the mark on the bottom of the cueball move back away from the mark on the table instead of staying with it while the ball moved over it.

It also states correctly that with ANY follow shot, the cueball jumps. (This is with a level cue, not jacked up. Try putting a penny in front of a cue ball about 4-5 inches and give a firm stroke with straight top. I can clear 4 pretty easy.)
Which may explain why you didn't see those results in the first video.. (even though two of his stokes appear to have moved the sand paper back and to the left)

Why not set up a shot where there is a super slight angle to a corner pocket, with the OB at the center of the table near one of the rails, and see if you can follow the CB farther, or draw the CB farther.. Then you will know what YOU can do..
 
Ponytail:

Great reply! We might want to get Dr. Dave to input into this thread, for there are points in the video where there's overspin (the cue ball is spinning faster than the rate of forward motion), versus not.

For example, upon initial impact from the cue, that mark on the cue ball *does* travel backward ever so slightly, but once the cue ball is in motion, you'll notice that the cue ball maintains traction with the table cloth at all times. Especially when you view the high-speed video at 1:10 in; that striped ball is rolling forward, and when the stripe makes contact with the cloth (i.e. as that stripe rolls "end over end"), one can clearly see that the cue ball isn't "spinning its wheels" or doing a "rolling burnout" like the tires on a car. At 1:10 in the video and beyond, up until the point of collision with the object ball, it's merely a rolling ball, maintaining contact with the cloth. It's only after collision with the object ball (equal mass striking another equal mass object results in motion stoppage of the first object, transferring virtually all the forward energy to the second object). But because of the centrifugal force of the spin "wanting" to keep the ball in motion, it stalls there for a moment, spinning in place, until friction of the cloth comes to bear and this spin results in ball motion again.

Humbly, methinks there might be some slight differences in what the term "overspin" means. Most (like myself) take "overspin" to mean that the ball is spinning faster than the forward rolling motion -- like a "rolling burnout" of a car's tires. However, methinks some may define "overspin" to mean that the ball is rolling fast enough that a collision with an equal-mass stationary object isn't enough to not only stop the forward motion, but also the centrifugal roll itself.

Although holding some education in physics, I'm certainly not an expert, and I'd love to get Mike Page's / Bob Jewett's / Dr. Dave's input on this.

Ponytail said:
I just watched the videos. The one with the high speed camera states that there WAS overspin. It states that plainly. It also shows the mark on the bottom of the cueball move back away from the mark on the table instead of staying with it while the ball moved over it.

It also states correctly that with ANY follow shot, the cueball jumps. (This is with a level cue, not jacked up. Try putting a penny in front of a cue ball about 4-5 inches and give a firm stroke with straight top. I can clear 4 pretty easy.)
Which may explain why you didn't see those results in the first video.. (even though two of his stokes appear to have moved the sand paper back and to the left)

Why not set up a shot where there is a super slight angle to a corner pocket, with the OB at the center of the table near one of the rails, and see if you can follow the CB farther, or draw the CB farther.. Then you will know what YOU can do..
Click to expand...
 
I'm really not sure of this but it seems there are two issues in the videos although they are both convincing.

1) The CB leaves the table therefore there's no movement in the sand paper.

2) Dr Daves video only looked at initial impact.

Could it be possible that the energy hasn't taken full effect till a little further down the road? Something tells me that a bullet for instance continues to accelerate for x distance after leaving the barrel. If so then maybe it is possible to burn rubber and we haven't looked in the right area. If not be kind to me.:sorry: Just asking.

It's an interesting question. How is it so easy to apply back spin but not top?
 
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