Phenolic cues banned? APA -Bca ?

[Shawn Armstrong]

The phenolic tip does jump a hell of a lot better than a leather tip. My break cue has 2 shafts, 1 with a leather tip (breaks a little better) and 1 with a phenolic tip ferrule combo (jumps a lot better). In the APA, they don't let you use jump cues or switch shafts, so this does come into play every once in a while when you're playing 9-ball or even 8-ball and you have to shoot a jump shot.

There's nothing wrong with jump cues either. It's just a cue that's made for a specific shot, just like in golf where they have a different club for every shot. Golfers never get any sh!t when they use a sand wedge to get out of a sand wedge.

Phenolic GREATLY enhanced jumping performance. I would argue the break isn't any better now because of the phenolic tip, but there is overwhelming evidence that the jump cue has been greatly improved with the phenolic tip. The BCAPL hasn't targeted the jumpers, just the breakers.

 

[sfleinen]

Fairly proven that phenolic tips do damage cue balls

Totally agree. But, let's look at leather versus phenolic versus G10. Leather compresses, even slightly when it's rock hard. The other two materials do not. Let's say the hardness scale is 40k for phenolic, 60k for a cueball and 65k for G10. If I hit the material that has a 60k hardness with the 40k material going exceptionally fast, I will damage the harder material. Will G10 damage the cueball more? Yes. But let's not just make the blanket statement that phenolic will not damage a cueball because it isn't as hard as the cueball. That argument is flawed.

Shawn:

Glad we agree on this -- the point about "it doesn't matter about the projectile's softness, just get it moving fast enough, and even a Nerf bat can damage a cue ball" was over-simplifying it. One shouldn't use a blanket statement to counter another blanket statement, as would be the case if one were to say "it doesn't matter about the hardness/softness of the cue tip, *any* cue tip will damage the cue ball" to counter the argument that "only materials harder than the cue ball can 'ever' possibly damage the cue ball."

The argument that phenolics can't damage the cue ball is definitely flawed, I agree. And, it is within the range of human ability to apply enough power behind the phenolic tip to damage the cue ball. That's been proven here on these boards with videos by numerous posters, most notably the user "genesis" on these boards:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=1537839#post1537839

If one reads the post, clicks the link to watch the video of the break stroke applied to the ball (including where on the cue ball the break tip is aligned), and then sees this result where the phenolic tip impacted this otherwise brand-new cue ball:

...I'd say that's pretty convincing.

BTW, I LOVE Mythbusters. The episode with the penny and the Empire State Building was a classic. Also, where else can you see guys completely atomize a cement truck!

Yep, that "one moment she's there, the next moment she's not" cement truck episode had me laughing so hard, that my sides hurt for the rest of the day.

 

[poolfoole]

Phenolic GREATLY enhanced jumping performance.

It absolutely does. If I use my break cue shaft with the phenolic tip when jumping with a full length cue, I get a hell of a lot more jump and control than with the shaft with a leather tip. I can barely get over the ball or can't get over it at all with the shaft with the leather tip. I actually drew half the length of the table 3 or 4 times jumping over a full ball with a full length cue while practicing. I've never been able to do that with any other equipment.

I would argue the break isn't any better now because of the phenolic tip...

The shaft with the leather tip (Tiger Shaft) gives me a slightly better break than the one with the phenolic tip (Original Shaft) with the Sledgehammer break cue I'm using.

...but there is overwhelming evidence that the jump cue has been greatly improved with the phenolic tip. The BCAPL hasn't targeted the jumpers, just the breakers.

I've noticed a significant difference in how much better the phenolic tip jumps. I've never heard of damaging pool balls like they claim. I play APA and they haven't gone after break cues with phenolic tips. They just won't let me use a jump cue in handicapped matches. This forces me to use my shaft with the phenolic tip for breaking which doesn't break quite as good as the shaft with the leather tip. The leather tip is practically useless for jumping.

 

[ShootingRazbone]

Phenolic GREATLY enhanced jumping performance. I would argue the break isn't any better now because of the phenolic tip, but there is overwhelming evidence that the jump cue has been greatly improved with the phenolic tip. The BCAPL hasn't targeted the jumpers, just the breakers.

But you said in the previous post it does..... Even by your numbers a 22.4 is better then 22.0. Which is it now?

SVB breaks with his playing cue. What's your point?

My point is your arrogant statement about buying into the hype of phenolic tips was ubsurd at best. What is good for you might not be good for me... and you can put your spin on that 100 different ways with all your numbers and talk but at the end of the day it is what it is. When Ralph Souqet says he feels he breaks better with a phenolic tip then who in the world are you to say different.

Will G10 damage the cueball more? Yes

but you said this before?

Here's where I disagree with anyone saying G10 does more damage than Canvas or Linen based Phenolic

Again which is it?

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

But you said in the previous post it does..... Even by your numbers a 22.4 is better then 22.0. Which is it now?



My point is your arrogant statement about buying into the hype of phenolic tips was ubsurd at best. What is good for you might not be good for me... and you can put your spin on that 100 different ways with all your numbers and talk but at the end of the day it is what it is. When Ralph Souqet says he feels he breaks better with a phenolic tip then who in the world are you to say different.



but you said this before?

Again which is it?

Wow......another one. Ok - here's the G10/Phenolic argument in a nutshell. Would you rather be struck in the face with a brick or a rock? The brick is slightly softer than the rock, so it stands to reason that it would be a better choice, right? However, either choice would do some serious damage to your face, right?

I feel that I break best with a gas powered piston cue that can generate cueball speeds of 100mph+. I could invent it, so maybe I should be allowed to use it? How about stainless steel tips? They'd work good, too.

The hardness of the phenolic and G10 are causing problems. Is G10 harder than phenolic? Yes. Is phenolic still hard enough to damage cue balls? Yes. Therefore, I say ban any material that can damage a cueball - that would include any material that is not pliable. Do I care if you use a synthetic tip? Nope - just prove that it's pliable, and will not damage the ball.

Did I make it crystal clear enough for you, or would you like me to draw a picture next time?

 

[ShootingRazbone]

Wow......another one. Ok - here's the G10/Phenolic argument in a nutshell. Would you rather be struck in the face with a brick or a rock? The brick is slightly softer than the rock, so it stands to reason that it would be a better choice, right? However, either choice would do some serious damage to your face, right?

I feel that I break best with a gas powered piston cue that can generate cueball speeds of 100mph+. I could invent it, so maybe I should be allowed to use it? How about stainless steel tips? They'd work good, too.

The hardness of the phenolic and G10 are causing problems. Is G10 harder than phenolic? Yes. Is phenolic still hard enough to damage cue balls? Yes. Therefore, I say ban any material that can damage a cueball - that would include any material that is not pliable. Do I care if you use a synthetic tip? Nope - just prove that it's pliable, and will not damage the ball.

Did I make it crystal clear enough for you, or would you like me to draw a picture next time?

I never said that it doesn't damage a cueball.... nor have I argued the point of banning the material...

I simply pointed out that your contridicting yourself a number of times. You sound smart... but take a stand one way or another... don't say something and then arrogantly say something else to make somebody look stupid! In this recent post of yours you didn't at all address what I posted. Your just talking in circles to make yourself sound smart...

You talked about 30 dollars for a new tip and ferrule like it was nothing .... well my friend a new cueball is less then that. The amount of damage that it takes to actually have to replace a cueball or two every 6 months per say is nothing compared to 5000 pool players in vegas having to spend 30 dollars a piece to replace what they have. Don't have to be a genius to understand that or do i have to draw you a picture?

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

I never said that it doesn't damage a cueball.... nor have I argued the point of banning the material...

I simply pointed out that your contridicting yourself a number of times. You sound smart... but take a stand one way or another... don't say something and then arrogantly say something else to make somebody look stupid! In this recent post of yours you didn't at all address what I posted. Your just talking in circles to make yourself sound smart...

You talked about 30 dollars for a new tip and ferrule like it was nothing .... well my friend a new cueball is less then that. The amount of damage that it takes to actually have to replace a cueball or two every 6 months per say is nothing compared to 5000 pool players in vegas having to spend 30 dollars a piece to replace what they have. Don't have to be a genius to understand that or do i have to draw you a picture?

OK - I'll use your logic on you. How many cueballs do you play with? There are 16 tables at the hall I play league at. Each table has a set of balls. I do not get the same set of balls every week. So, me and my $15 phenolic tip get to damage 16 cueballs in the room. How much damage did that $15 tip cause? 1 tip = $30 to change. How much for 16 cueballs? At $30 a pop for the good ones, that's $480. And that's just me. Every cueball my cue touches can be damaged by the tip. Let's say I play a tournament at a different location. How many cueballs there? Let's not pretend that it's a one for one deal.

Here are two possible solutions to the problem - institute a break ball rule, or change the tip on the break cue. If the resin tips cause damage, they need to be removed. Let's say I replace the cueball. The second it's hit by a phenolic tip, it's damaged. Time to replace it again.

I appreciate your argument, but saying that replacing cue balls will be less expensive than changing tips is ludicrous.

 

[Ponytail]

If you have not tried the Samsara jump/break tip, I highly recommend it. Royce Bunnel from OB Cues turned me onto them, and I can't say enough good things about them.

I used to have a phenolic tip. Played with it for many years.
After putting on the Samsara, my break is better than ever. Better control, and just as much power.

As for jumping. I have not noticed any difference on how close I can jump, but have noticed added control. I can draw/follow better. (not good.. just better)

The cost is around 15 dollars for the tip itself. (See atlas billiards or the samsara site itself) I was lucky enough to buy some when they were below 10 bucks, but that didn't last long when the demand when up due to the ban.

I have also installed this on several other peoples cues, and they are all in complete agreement. If you don't wish to believe me, please ask Royce from OB cues.

 

[driz86]

awesome...I wanted to get rid of that thing anyway

 

[ShootingRazbone]

OK - I'll use your logic on you. How many cueballs do you play with? There are 16 tables at the hall I play league at. Each table has a set of balls. I do not get the same set of balls every week. So, me and my $15 phenolic tip get to damage 16 cueballs in the room. How much damage did that $15 tip cause? 1 tip = $30 to change. How much for 16 cueballs? At $30 a pop for the good ones, that's $480. And that's just me. Every cueball my cue touches can be damaged by the tip. Let's say I play a tournament at a different location. How many cueballs there? Let's not pretend that it's a one for one deal.

Here are two possible solutions to the problem - institute a break ball rule, or change the tip on the break cue. If the resin tips cause damage, they need to be removed. Let's say I replace the cueball. The second it's hit by a phenolic tip, it's damaged. Time to replace it again.

I appreciate your argument, but saying that replacing cue balls will be less expensive than changing tips is ludicrous.

My pool room there is 12 tables.... same cueballs for several years... everyone in the joint has a phenolic tip on their break cue. So tell me when have you EVER taken a bran new cueball used a phenolic tip on it and created so much damage that it needs replaced?
Same goes for my red circle in my house... break with a G10 everyday haven't had to replace the thing yet because of damage. I appreciate your agruement, but saying you have to replace a cueball the second its hit by my break cue, much less 6 months down the road....uhhh ludicrous aint the word.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

So when should it be replaced? How many hits, in your opinion?

 

[ShootingRazbone]

So when should it be replaced? How many hits, in your opinion?

More than 1 :slap:

 

[tucson9ball]

Are these tips being banned, Yes they are in Washington State for all BCA Events including league.

Do they chip or dent Cue Balls, no they do not and anyone who saids they do is Full Of Shit.

I own a pool room where Phenolic Tips are used every day, they put no more wear on the cue ball than any other tip.

Why are the BCA and other operating franchises banning this tip / Ferrule assembly? What is their real motivation? Why are they openly spreading false information?


So to the BCA I say BULL SHIT, just be honest and tell everyone the real reason the ban is taking place, trust me most players can handle the truth.

Tap Tap!!!!
I have yet to see with my own eyes any damage done by a phenolic tip. Cue ball damage may be from jumping off the playing surface and hitting a metal foot from another table possibly. But until I see somebody hit and damage a cue ball with a pheno;ic tip I will not beleive it.

 

[tucson9ball]

Here's where I disagree with anyone saying G10 does more damage than Canvas or Linen based Phenolic. Anyone that knows physics can give you the formula for kinetic energy - it's half the mass times the square of the velocity. So, the cue mass will be the same. The velocity is what changes. Let's say the cue is going roughly 30MPH. That results in a square of 900. 20MPH would be 400. A simple 10MPH increase will result in 2.25 times the energy hitting the cueball.

If the kinetic energy of the cue is high enough, as long as the tip material doesn't compress, you can damage the cueball. The cueball and object balls are the exact same material. yet the cueball ends up with the most damage. Why? Because it is the only ball being hit by a cue. If I took a material like wood, which isn't as strong as bone, and swung it incredibly fast at someone's leg or head, I could break bones. The material I used isn't as hard as the thing I was hitting, yet the harder material buckled. Everyone quotes hardness scales of phenolic versus G10 versus cueball resin - these numbers are nonsense, as balls do not hit each other at a near zero rate of speed. The cueball is hit by an accelerating cue. The phenolic does not give - if you never have to have the mushroom taken off the tip, it's not compressing. The wood behind the ferrule is bending, so it's compressing instead of the tip.

If I was able to accelerate a NERF bat fast enough, I could shatter glass, yet glass is much stronger than NERF. Why is that? Kinetic energy. The reason the BCAPL has targeted the break cues instead of the jump cues is the rate of speed, or kinetic energy, they can transfer to the cue ball.

Very good points and well stated, however, I have never seen any cue ball damage first hand yet. So, until I do, I don't beleive damage is caused by the tip of a cue.

 

[rbpwrd240]

For one last time I will boast about my success. I wish you all would have been here back in may when this all started. I personally started a bad mouthing session directed toward the BCAPL that has lead us to this comprimise. Here is an over view.

May- BCAPL will ban all phenolics on all cues. I ask Mr. Griffen to possibly think of changing the rule and his anwser was that the books had already been printed and a change would be out of the question for this year. I started to be the squeeky wheel and cause a huge rucous.

June- After sevral insightfull posts I finally get some attention and I distroy all arguments from the BCAPL and other AZ'ers (Sorry guys). This included arguments on cost, damage, even the originality of the game. After some good rep and some bad as well as a couple real informative conversations with key people I managed to make enough trouble to make the BCAPL have a meeting and decided to change there rulling and make it phenolics on break cues is illegal instead of on all cues.

They changed there argument on you tube from the cost aspect which was Bull Sh%t, to that it could damage the ball and playing with damaged equipment just isnt an option. This is a better argument but again its only at nationals for the BCAPL and all that stuff is brand new when it gets there how long would it take to see damage?

Either way your all welcome for being able to keep your jump tips and I hope you phenolic haters are happy we still have to break the old fashioned way.

This dosnt mean I still wont run out!!!​

Alex

 

[AuntyDan]

Tap Tap!!!!
I have yet to see with my own eyes any damage done by a phenolic tip. Cue ball damage may be from jumping off the playing surface and hitting a metal foot from another table possibly. But until I see somebody hit and damage a cue ball with a pheno;ic tip I will not beleive it.

Come over to my house and I'll be happy to show you cue balls covered in those half-moon dents. None of the object balls in my sets have these marks, so it ain't being caused by pocket nails or an occasional bounce on the floor.

However I can't say it is only the harder-than-leather break cue tips causing this. I personally believe they are a contributing factor, but the other factor is recent manufacturing changes made by Saluc/Aramith that they are refusing to admit to. I have an older Aramith retail red-circle cue ball with far such fewer marks on it than newer Pro Cup, Aramith logo and Centennial blue-circle cue balls.

If table/room owners of locations where leagues are played are complaining their equipment is being damaged I don't have a big problem with the ban. (I actually use a Predator 1 with a leather tip and it breaks just fine.) However they should also be complaining to Aramith/Saluc to make their cue balls the same way they used to.

Also IIRC when Phenolic tips were first marketed one of the main selling points was you could actually break with less speed/power and get good results.

 

[Holly]

If I could find an old wife who knew what a phenolic tip was, I'd be amazed


As far as I know, the APA has NOT outlawed phenolic tips. We shall see if the other leagues decide to follow the BCA or if they allow them and try to steal players because of it.

The BCA has outlawed them...

For me personally, this will affect my jump game much more significantly than my break. Guess I'm gonna have to start studying more Efren and less Putnam. :thumbup:

The phenolic tip ban is only on break cues, not jump cues.

 

[Luxury]

I'm guessing there is a cover up as well. Mark Griffin nervously stutters and stumbles on his words the entire portion of his interview on YouTube while trying to explain the ban. I could be wrong though.

Come over to my house and I'll be happy to show you cue balls covered in those half-moon dents. None of the object balls in my sets have these marks, so it ain't being caused by pocket nails or an occasional bounce on the floor.

However I can't say it is only the harder-than-leather break cue tips causing this. I personally believe they are a contributing factor, but the other factor is recent manufacturing changes made by Saluc/Aramith that they are refusing to admit to. I have an older Aramith retail red-circle cue ball with far such fewer marks on it than newer Pro Cup, Aramith logo and Centennial blue-circle cue balls.

If table/room owners of locations where leagues are played are complaining their equipment is being damaged I don't have a big problem with the ban. (I actually use a Predator 1 with a leather tip and it breaks just fine.) However they should also be complaining to Aramith/Saluc to make their cue balls the same way they used to.

Also IIRC when Phenolic tips were first marketed one of the main selling points was you could actually break with less speed/power and get good results.