The Chinese are coming ...

[WilleeCue]

Hi everybody,


Isn't this a good thing? No F/T or hobby cuemaker seem to want that segment of the market, so let China saturate it. This allows more people to get their hands on their own personal cue. (I said personal and not custom.) As they get the feel for the game and sharing it with their friends and yada yada.... that equates to more players. As these 'undesirable cues' disintegrate in their hands over time, they'll be looking for a new cue.

Yes as far as that part goes you are correct it HAS been a good thing.
But what if those cues stopped "disintegrating" in a few years.

These new higher quality cues are coming to Wal-Mart, Sears, Kmart, and other sporting goods stores.
They are way better than what was available there in the past.

As a cue maker I can buy what is supposed to be A++ shaft wood from well known suppliers for about $20 per dowel.
Are they all A++? ... no ... I pay A++ price for each one but do not get it and that is an accepted loss in this business.

Some of the new Chinese cues are coming with what appears to be A++ wood shafts and the whole cue is $30 or so wholesale.
Will the shafts warp? Good question and time will tell.
But do you think that as a cue maker I will continue to buy shaft wood I can not inspect ... or finished shafts from China that I can inspect, re-taper, re-ring, re-tip, re-ferrule, plug and re-tap, (less work than cutting a new shaft from a dowel) and I get an A++ shaft every time.
That is just one of the ways the American cue business will lose.

"But it is a Chinese shaft" ... they say ... "it is crap".
Well ... where do you think the maple wood comes from.
They dont grow it in China.
"It isnt aged properly" ... but what if it was?
"It will warp" ... but what if it dont?

THE largest stockpile of maple shaft wood today is in the warehouses in China. Quality is quality no matter where you find it.


OK I am done.
No more!
Every pool player has eyes and a brain and we all will soon see and know.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Yes as far as that part goes you are correct it HAS been a good thing.
But what if those cues stopped "disintegrating" in a few years.

These new higher quality cues are coming to Wal-Mart, Sears, Kmart, and other sporting goods stores.
They are way better than what was available there in the past.

As a cue maker I can buy what is supposed to be A++ shaft wood from well known suppliers for about $20 per dowel.
Are they all A++? ... no ... I pay A++ price for each one but do not get it and that is an accepted loss in this business.

Some of the new Chinese cues are coming with what appears to be A++ wood shafts and the whole cue is $30 or so wholesale.
Will the shafts warp? Good question and time will tell.
But do you think that as a cue maker I will continue to buy shaft wood I can not inspect ... or finished shafts from China that I can inspect, re-taper, re-ring, re-tip, re-ferrule, plug and re-tap, (less work than cutting a new shaft from a dowel) and I get an A++ shaft every time.
That is just one of the ways the American cue business will lose.

"But it is a Chinese shaft" ... they say ... "it is crap".
Well ... where do you think the maple wood comes from.
They dont grow it in China.
"It isnt aged properly" ... but what if it was?
"It will warp" ... but what if it dont?

THE largest stockpile of maple shaft wood today is in the warehouses in China. Quality is quality no matter where you find it.


OK I am done.
No more!
Every pool player has eyes and a brain and we all will soon see and know.

How do they hit compared to your cues?

 

[rhncue]

me too and by a mile.there is nothing worse than Sharpied points like that,i would rather my cue have holes in it.that is why i called the cue garbage.for some reason Sharpied points really make me cringe.

Me thinks you protest to loudly. If nothing is worse than slightly sharpened points then you are saying that at least 2, that I know of, of the top 10 revered cue makers in the U.S. and who have built cues costing over 30,000.00 are building garbage cues. By the way, have you ever built a cue with points and veneers?

Dick

 

[Thunder Thighs]

There sure are a lot of interesting points/opinions on this thread.

 

[masonh]

Me thinks you protest to loudly. If nothing is worse than slightly sharpened points then you are saying that at least 2, that I know of, of the top 10 revered cue makers in the U.S. and who have built cues costing over 30,000.00 are building garbage cues. By the way, have you ever built a cue with points and veneers?

no i haven't Dick,so maybe i shouldn't have spoken,but i don't think i would feel right using a Sharpie to make my points look good.but that's just me.

Dick,do you use Sharpies to straighten or sharpen your points and veneers?

the only cue i called garbage is the one in this thread.i never said any cue with a Sharpie mark on it is garbage so try not to put words in my mouth.i said Sarpie points LIKE THE ONE IN THE THREAD make me cringe.

i didn't realize it was such common practice,do lots of cue makers do this?i guess if it is done well it would be OK,but did you look at the cue in this thread,it's pretty bad and obvious from several feet away.i guess he just needs to increase his Sharpie skills,the point actually gets thin and then fatter at the tip instead of vice a versa.

i can think of one guy that uses Sharpies on veneers that might be considered by some to be a top 10 cue maker,and i am sure he is on your list,but i really doubt he would make many's list of top 10.just because a guy built a 30k cue doesn't mean he is one of the 10 best in the world.

thanks Dick.

 

[jayman]

Well I knew it was only a matter of time.

I was looking at some Chinese cues priced under $200 (some under $100) retail last night.
Good solid light colored maple shaft, quality ferrule, real linen wrap.
Good wood, excellent fit and workmanship, proper construction, and a nice finish.

I could not do the wrap, shaft, and finish for under $200 and make a profit let alone do the completed cue.
I could buy the whole cue wholesale, throw away the butt, sell the shaft for $100 and still make a profit.

The bottom to mid end of the cue market will soon be owned by the Chinese.
This is exactly where most cue makers are making their money ... $300 to $500 cues.
It will take a while for the pool playing public to wise up to the quality being offered and for the past stigma of "Made in China" to wear off.
But it will ... and the American cue makers will be dropping like flies.

Only the hobby and the super high end cue maker will survive the next 5 years.

Unless you are making $2000 and up level cues you should start considering another way to make a living.

Willee

This will will help you in the "fundamentally changed" America.
http://www.rosettastone.com/learn-chinese

 

[jayman]

1. If you believe in freedom then you believe in freedom of choice which includes the freedom to import and sell cues made somewhere besides America. You also believe in freedom for each person to spend their money as they see fit. You believe that any person on Earth has the right to start making cues. This includes any person in any town, city or state in any country.

2. If you believe in progress then you understand that where production happens it innovates or dies. This includes the USA and China. Where would most of you be in your cuemaking if you weren't able to share resources with each other? Yet you are upset when others do the same thing with overseas cue makers. I think most of you would agree that cue making overall is now much better than it was 20 years ago. Even Ernie Gutierez says that his cues are much much better than those he built in the 60s.

3. Why shouldn't there be a sub-$100 cue? If there can be such a thing as a $10,000 cue that is completely out of proportion to the cost of materials and often probably to the work that went into it why can't cues also be as inexpensive as they can be and still be decently made?

4. Why do you spend time labeling importers as greedy when in fact you are just as greedy for wanting to restrict them in your favor? Doesn't anyone see the irony in saying that there should be tariffs and protections put on imports to stop them from competing with domestically produced goods? Would you stand for it if your state suddenly put a major tax on food imported from other states in order to "protect" the agriculture production in your state? What would happen if the other states reacted similarly and put tariffs on food produced in your state? Or on wood from Michigan? You would not stand for it if any law were passed to restrict your ability to choose from any supplier of materials in the USA simply because of where they are based.

5. Instead of casting blame and inventing a situation that doesn't exist spend your time educating people about what makes a good cue and sell that aspect. Of course people don't know that a cue is made in China because honestly that doesn't even really factor into most people's buying decision. I stood up in the ACA meeting in 1997 and said that the ACA should spend some of their money to produce a poster that explains what their collective membership has adopted as the guidelines to determine what a good cue is and should couple that with an "ACA Approved" sticker to put on all ACA member cues. Put that attractive poster up in every pool room and retail store in America and that would have gone a LONG way to helping the American consumer get an education on what a good cue is.

Then of course some of the importers would have used the criteria to advertise their cues - BUT the determining factor for a lot of people would have been is it ACA approved and if not then WHY NOT? But this sort of effort is something the ACA didn't do and so they allowed the importers to use the right language to advertise their cues, "hard-rock maple", "pro-taper", "exotic hardwoods", etc.... and then you know what? The cue manufacturers have now caught up with the marketing and the cues are actually pretty good.

6. Quality - today's cues from the top two cue manufacturers in China are as good or better than the production cues from the USA makers and better than most of the cues from small makers. Are there a lot of cues that need repairs? Well yeah, there are a lot of cues - MILLIONS being made every year. Not all of those cues are made with the best wood and they don't have to be. It should be perfectly obvious that a $50 retail cue isn't going to be made with the same care and materials as a $500 one. Now some of you would like to cast aspersions and insinuate that the $500 import cue is made with the same amount of lower grade materials and inattention to detail. You would be wrong.

The truth is that the big factories in China operate on a much different plane in that they tailor their production to whatever the customer wants, think of a true custom cue maker on a grand scale with the ability to make any cue in any fashion that anyone wants to pay for. Want $1500 cues then the factory will assign a team of five people to make your cues with an incredible amount of attention to detail. Want $15 dollar cues then you aren't going to get the best people but you will get a solid process that produces decent cues.

6a. The process for the two top cue makers in China is almost as good as any shop in the USA large or small. The factory which produces Fury cues has $10,000,000 (ten million) in wood in a climate controlled warehouse. They have more than a million shafts in various stages of turning and grading - with all the ones that are tapered HANGING just like the big boys do it. Imagine a warehouse that is 50feet high with ten rows of racks that are all 30ft long and each has about six levels all stocked with hanging partial shafts.

6b. Particular construction techniques: Many of you claim to know just how the cues in China are constructed. You don't. You see small parts of some cues and extrapolate that onto all cues coming from China. The fact is that the top two factories here do core some cues, they use laminated handles on some cues, they thread all the parts on some cues, they use the best adhesives, they use high end parts, they use the same materials that USA based manufacturers use on some cues. I'd bet that the top two cue makers here are possibly Atlas Fiber's largest customers. Corey Harper can confirm that one of the top two cue makers in China is a fairly large customer of Tiger's tips.

On our suggestion the cue maker who makes Fury cues has purchased three Universal Lasers from ULS in Scottsdale Arizona. That's around $100,000 US dollars which went back into the US economy. Using these lasers they have created some incredible cues and techniques.

8. Which brings us all the way to economics 101. All the dollars that go to China come back into the USA at some point in the form or purchases or investment. They have to otherwise no bank would accept dollars. Try paying a bill with Chinese RMB. Banks have to have dollars on hand for companies to be able to purchase the equipment they need. Tourists spend dollars in the USA they don't buy Disneyland tickets and $30 made in China Mickey Mouse dolls using Renminbi. Chinese children attend US colleges with their education and expenses paid for with dollars shipped in from China. So contrary to sensational headlines and uneducated belief it's not a one way street. For the people who say that they won't repair import cues do you refuse to sell to people from overseas who want to buy your cues? If one of your cues that you sold to an overseas buyer needed a new tip would you expect the local cue maker there to refuse to work on it?

9. Which brings me all the way back to freedom. If you truly believe that the American way is the best way to live and you believe in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and you believe in the Declaration of Independence and you believe that all human beings are equal and that all deserve to be free then you also believe in their right to pursue the same lifestyle that we Americans enjoy. They are working their asses off to make a better now for themselves and a better future for their kids. So please try to remember that we are all people who have to live together on this globe.

If we continue to operate in ignorance with very little to attempt to understand the other side then eventually the ignorance will lead to real war and that will be more than tragic because the next world war will be near Armageddon. Thinking beyond your own needs for a moment wouldn't you rather have the Chinese making cues and toys instead of landmines and warheads?

10. The fact is that competition is healthy. It weeds out the weak and rewards the strong. Having competition is an opportunity to shine, an opportunity to grow. Repairing a cue is an opportunity to learn more about it and to educate your customer at the same time.

I make cases. I often make the claim that I know more about cue cases that anyone else in the world. Pretty bold statement. It comes from the fact that in my career I have dissected every possible case I could get my hands on. When I did shows I had a toolbox with me to repair our cases on the spot and I expanded it to repairing other cases for a fee. In this way I got other people to fund my education about cases. That gave me in turn a lot of ammunition to fight against the knockoffs of my cases. Knockoffs that were being sold right next door to me at the shows for half my prices.

So I had to justify my prices to the people looking at my cases. How did I do that? Beyond the things everyone could see and feel like the quality of the build and the protective features I could let them look under the hood so to speak by showing them my cases taken apart and also the cases of the knockoffs. Over the years I had many people who brought me a knockoff to repair and when I showed them how it was made inside they turned around and bought one of mine off the wall.

Please don't give in to the hype that competition is bad for you. It's only bad if you stand still because if you do then there is another guy coming up behind you to overtake you, be it the next player in the poolroom who wants to be a cue maker or the Chinese cue maker. Embrace it and use it and you can succeed in any market.

I shall now dawn my hip waiters...the shit is really getting deep here!!
You are cashing in on the slave labor in China,and watching America perish for you're actions .
Yours, (and those like you) is one funeral i shall be glad to attend. Can we make it soon?? I will not be "politically correct" here, there is very little straight forward dialog any more. America has been sold. and guess who the new owners are??
http://www.rosettastone.com/learn-chinese

 

[John Barton]

I shall now dawn my hip waiters...the shit is really getting deep here!!
You are cashing in on the slave labor in China,and watching America perish for you're actions .
Yours, (and those like you) is one funeral i shall be glad to attend. Can we make it soon?? I will not be "politically correct" here, there is very little straight forward dialog any more. America has been sold. and guess who the new owners are??
http://www.rosettastone.com/learn-chinese

Get real. It's this sort of ignorance that brings the world down. Why don't you move out to the woods and be self-contained and self-reliant if you think you can do it. If you believe that it's the best way for the country then start with yourself.

You're right, you are not being politically correct because being politically correct implies that you have some sense of reality and the fact that IF we don't allow other countries to grow and prosper then they will be our enemies.

Your way implies that it's perfectly ok for America to rape the planet's resources and DENY the rest of the world the luxuries you enjoy.

I knew I shouldn't have jumped into this. The ignorance and bigotry is staggering. And that's really pathetic when the greatest resource in the world to educate yourself on the real facts about BOTH sides of the topic, any topic, is at your fingertips.

Instead, lazily, people just regurgitate ignorant sensationalist headlines rather than to go and fact check. It's depressing to share a common citizenship with people who have all the freedom and time to educate themselves and they don't.

If you can be bothered to move your finger and click your mouse please click this link and read what Bill Maher says. Forget about him, just refute the statements he makes like "24% of Americans can't name the country we fought in the revolutionary war." (ever see where Jay Leno goes out and asks people basic questions on the street and most of them can't answer them?).

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-maher/new-rule-smart-president_b_253996.html

If you can't be enough of a citizen to understand what your country is REALLY built on then don't pretend that just being loud and proud makes you a true American and Patriot. Two groups built America. The ones who protested the governance of King George politically and those who fought when it was time to fight for it.

You can't have it both ways. You can't have the freedom you cherish without allowing others to have it as well. Once you start telling people what they can do and where then it will come back to haunt you and restrict your freedom. Once you start asking the government to "protect" your lifestyle then you have nothing to say when they restrict it in the "national" interest.

You're right though the shit is getting deep and it's not people like me who are defecating all over what it really means to be an American.

Aren't you the guy who collects Adams cues? Made in Japan? Why don't you collect Vikings instead?

As for your comment wishing me dead, I wouldn't expect anything less from someone who wishes the world to be in perpetual war.

Staying on topic, those Adams/Helmstetter cues are pretty good for Asian production aren't they? Did you know that most of them were produced by Mezz for 30 years? At least this is what Kaz Miki, the owner of Mezz, told me. Mezz cues has been in business longer than Adams and was the factory who produced the Adams family of brands.

 

[John Barton]

no i haven't Dick,so maybe i shouldn't have spoken,but i don't think i would feel right using a Sharpie to make my points look good.but that's just me.

Dick,do you use Sharpies to straighten or sharpen your points and veneers?

the only cue i called garbage is the one in this thread.i never said any cue with a Sharpie mark on it is garbage so try not to put words in my mouth.i said Sarpie points LIKE THE ONE IN THE THREAD make me cringe.

i didn't realize it was such common practice,do lots of cue makers do this?i guess if it is done well it would be OK,but did you look at the cue in this thread,it's pretty bad and obvious from several feet away.i guess he just needs to increase his Sharpie skills,the point actually gets thin and then fatter at the tip instead of vice a versa.

i can think of one guy that uses Sharpies on veneers that might be considered by some to be a top 10 cue maker,and i am sure he is on your list,but i really doubt he would make many's list of top 10.just because a guy built a 30k cue doesn't mean he is one of the 10 best in the world.

thanks Dick.

There is a reason they are called Sharpies

In Germany the dominant brand of permanent marker is Edding and it's used like we use the word Sharpie.

Once upon a time long ago I was sitting in the workshop of Hans Joerg Bertram, a cue maker and repair guy. I picked up a Falcon cue and asked him what he thought of it. He said "oh it's built well enough but when he took the finish off the black 'veneers' around the points came off as well and that Falcon must have a really good relationship with Edding"

I am thinking about making a line of cues where ONLY Sharpies are used to decorate them. There is some pretty cool Sharpie art out there. I will probably stay away from using them to make sharp points though for obvious reasons

Of course I have to import the real Sharpies from the USA as I have never found them here and the Chinese versions aren't as good.

 

[icem3n]

Aren't you the guy who collects Adams cues? Made in Japan? Why don't you collect Vikings instead?

As for your comment wishing me dead, I wouldn't expect anything less from someone who wishes the world to be in perpetual war.

Staying on topic, those Adams/Helmstetter cues are pretty good for Asian production aren't they? Did you know that most of them were produced by Mezz for 30 years? At least this is what Kaz Miki, the owner of Mezz, told me. Mezz cues has been in business longer than Adams and was the factory who produced the Adams family of brands.

Alright Jay, it is time to collect Mezz and Exceed cues

 

[Sheldon]

I knew I shouldn't have jumped into this. The ignorance and bigotry is staggering. And that's really pathetic when the greatest resource in the world to educate yourself on the real facts about BOTH sides of the topic, any topic, is at your fingertips.

Instead, lazily, people just regurgitate ignorant sensationalist headlines rather than to go and fact check. It's depressing to share a common citizenship with people who have all the freedom and time to educate themselves and they don't.

AMEN. Our only hope to survive the next century is if people start waking up, and quit the blind faith politics. Our future shouldn't be decided by the people that can cheer the loudest (or play the dirtiest) for "their side".

 

[TellsItLikeItIs]

Me thinks you protest to loudly. If nothing is worse than slightly sharpened points then you are saying that at least 2, that I know of, of the top 10 revered cue makers in the U.S. and who have built cues costing over 30,000.00 are building garbage cues. By the way, have you ever built a cue with points and veneers?

Dick

I never have understood why an experienced cue maker would have to correct point length.

 

[TellsItLikeItIs]

I play where most fall into that category. To them, Predator is the King. But I do my part and I share with them my insights. I tell them that for the $500-900 cdn they could spend on a Pred (or insert your flavor of production cue brand), they could be getting a custom. And in most cases w/2 shafts.

Thank you for the support.

 

[ratcues]

I am so tired of hearing if only the government would do this or that I could be competitive. You don't need the government to be competitive - you are either competitive and figure out ways to get and retain customers or you don't.

Its not the taxes that get in the way of American cue manufacturing, whether that be production or custom. It is not even the cheap Chinese labor, even though that is one component.

John, I ask you these questions;

What are your EPA standards?
What portion of the wages you pay your employees go to a nationalized retirement account(social security)?
When was the last time OSHA visited you?
Are your employees protected by workman's compensation?
Do they have health insurance?
How do your employee's wages compare to the USA's minimum wage?

I ask you these not to start a fight or to continue the ones already started but I am genuinely interested. I feel that the US gets blamed for the world's problems, especially pollution. If my shop has to comply with EPA standards and minimum social standards, we should add an import tax to any county that does not meet our minimums.

 

[jayman]

Get real. It's this sort of ignorance that brings the world down. Why don't you move out to the woods and be self-contained and self-reliant if you think you can do it. If you believe that it's the best way for the country then start with yourself.

Did I say that?? please find the quote. I missed that one.

You're right, you are not being politically correct because being politically correct implies that you have some sense of reality and the fact that IF we don't allow other countries to grow and prosper then they will be our enemies.

Gosh i hate to think someone might not like us. EEK!

Your way implies that it's perfectly ok for America to rape the planet's resources and DENY the rest of the world the luxuries you enjoy.

John please, now you're just showing you're personal distain for America.
But please don't imply that I said any thing on that subject when It never happened, O.K.?

I knew I shouldn't have jumped into this. The ignorance and bigotry is staggering. And that's really pathetic when the greatest resource in the world to educate yourself on the real facts about BOTH sides of the topic, any topic, is at your fingertips.

Bigotry?? Lovely left wing tactic there John. If you can not defend your position call others, Bigots..racists..ignorant..lazy..

Instead, lazily, people just regurgitate ignorant sensationalist headlines rather than to go and fact check. It's depressing to share a common citizenship with people who have all the freedom and time to educate themselves and they don't.

Talking to your self here I think. when will you be renouncing you'r U.S. citizenship?

If you can be bothered to move your finger and click your mouse please click this link and read what Bill Maher says. Forget about him, just refute the statements he makes like "24% of Americans can't name the country we fought in the revolutionary war." (ever see where Jay Leno goes out and asks people basic questions on the street and most of them can't answer them?).

Seems like a lot of people just don't appreciate this great country.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-maher/new-rule-smart-president_b_253996.html

The huffington post? i tried to click on their website but my mouse wont go that far to the left.

If you can't be enough of a citizen to understand what your country is REALLY built on then don't pretend that just being loud and proud makes you a true American and Patriot. Two groups built America. The ones who protested the governance of King George politically and those who fought when it was time to fight for it.

Not sure what your point here was, But didn't the third group just move their manufacturing operations to China and do nothing at all to help keep America strong and lasting.

You can't have it both ways. You can't have the freedom you cherish without allowing others to have it as well. Once you start telling people what they can do and where then it will come back to haunt you and restrict your freedom. Once you start asking the government to "protect" your lifestyle then you have nothing to say when they restrict it in the "national" interest.

Umm have you been been drinking. So ..we should exploit Chinese slaves because we are FREE to do so?.. Then ask the government What exactly?? I don't think your "Both ways" thing works here.

You're right though the shit is getting deep and it's not people like me who are defecating all over what it really means to be an American.

YES! a real American would never rape the American landscape for its valuable resources, All the while employing American rapists to do it!!
HELL NO! A "real American" would move to China to do that!

Aren't you the guy who collects Adams cues? Made in Japan? Why don't you collect Vikings instead?

Whats a matter John, Don't like the japs?


View attachment 106701

Good idea though!

As for your comment wishing me dead, I wouldn't expect anything less from someone who wishes the world to be in perpetual war.

Yes That's what said John..I'm just a big fat anarchist ignorant lazy Non-American. But truly, I don't want you dead, I want you around as an example of a real American! L.O.L

Staying on topic, those Adams/Helmstetter cues are pretty good for Asian production aren't they? Did you know that most of them were produced by Mezz for 30 years? At least this is what Kaz Miki, the owner of Mezz, told me. Mezz cues has been in business longer than Adams and was the factory who produced the Adams family of brands.

Bullshit!

12345678910

 

[bdcues]

Go Jayman,


John, "The US Government spends the vast majority of the money it spends on the running of the government and programs inside the USA. Foreign aid is about 1% of GDP. Don't confuse the trade deficit with the national debt. They don't have anything to do with each other. The government collects taxes based on profits and if those profits are higher for companies that import then they pay more in taxes."
"It's a fallacy to blame taxes for an inability to compete. You pay taxes when you earn profits so it's not as if the government is holding you up and collecting money before you get a chance to sell something."

I never confused the trade deficit with the national debt. The FEDERAL government collects taxes based on profits yes. State and local governments collect taxes based on many things, not just profits. If americans were not servicing the national debt they would have more of those profits still in their pockets to compete with.
As for it being a fallacy to blame taxes for an inablity to complete I don't know what planet you live on. Please explain why companies more to another city, another state or another country to compete. Tell me why Boeing moved from Washington State and is now outsourcing to China. Could it have anything to due with taxes??? Could it have anything to due with it trying to compete with unfair help from the UE to Airbus???

John. "I knew I shouldn't have jumped into this. The ignorance and bigorty is staggering. Instead, lazily, people just regurgitate ignorant sensationalist headlines rather than to go and fack check. It's depressing to share a common citizenship with people who have all the freedom and time to educate themselves and they don't."

Wow John. You have outdone yourself there. You complain about sensationalis headlines ( and I wish you would point those out to me ) and send us to Hannity. You call us bigots because we don't believe exactly do. You twist our words to the furthest realm of meaning than call us ignorant. Those ignorant, bigoted people are your customers. Or maybe were your customers. Yes, there are some ignorant people in America. I would bet there are some ignorant people in China also. But you make the statement that they spend huge amounts of money coming here to get educated. Hhhmm. Someone here must be smart. And who came to China to teach them what they now know. And what are all those consulting fees for that you say along with tourist and such bring in $200+ billion to the USA every year. They did not figure it out for themselves. No, some smuck from the USA gave them the technology and showed them what to do with it. Not just in cues but hundreds of others industries. I for one am smart enough to never be a customer of one of your cases.

John, "So basically what you want to say is that we need to defend our "right" to continue this level of consumption and deny it to everyone else? No one else is allowed to have any prosperity if it means we have to give up a little of ours?"

No, John. That is now what I want to say. Once again you twist someones words. You seem to see no middle ground. But somehow you would like to see Communism and Capitalism combined. That everyone should have the ability to have the same as everyone else by whatever means possible. Oh... Communist China. I get it.
The "right". No, I would not call it a right. But I do see it as something that was once "earned" but has now been overused. There were these little things called World War I and World War II and a few other little tusssles along the way. In them we defended your "right" to do pretty much as you please and say prettly much what you want. If you want to believe that there should be no tariffs or restrictions on imported goods than that is fine. If you think that China should claim a lower value for its currency so that it can sell goods at a lower price, with actual cost lower than claimed in an effort to put US companies out of business than you can go right ahead.

In the end it is you that can't have it both ways. You can not expect to call us stupid and to sell us something. You can not expect to have capitalsim and communism, one gives way to the other. And you can not expect that the Chinese government will slow its military growth because now it has capitalism to fund itself. Tell me ( actually, please don't! ) what will happen when the money runs out. When all those who left the fields have to return but now there is now work for them there either. A little unrest? A little pressure on the government to do something about it? Naw, how could I even think such a thing.

John. " The economic crisis is here because most Americans are completely ignorant of how money works and are completely clueless about how to manage their money. Thus they bought houses they couldn't afford and banks let them do it because everyone was making money selling the loans to other companies, more loans made means more commissions. Your own people swindled you - all the Chinese did was to make all the stuff you kept buying on credit to fill up those houses you can't afford."

The economic crisis did not start with the housing issue. With us "clueless people". The crisis started many years ago when someone decided that a global economy based on consumerism would line their pockets full of gold. When jobs were outsourced to other countries based on cost not quality. When they got greedy. Then when they were taxed on those high profits they bought a house and moved the business to another country to avoid taxes ( which you say have no effect on anything ).

John. "You cannot look at a number like the trade deficit which only measures goods in vs. goods out. There will always be trade deficits of that nature between nations with widely different economies. Chinese people can't yet afford to consume like Americans do - but they are trying."

Yes, yes. Lets see. Math 101. 300m use 25% of resouces. 300m into 1.3b is a little over 4.3. 4.3 x 25% = 100.15%. Add 25% is 125.15% of resources and that does not count the rest of the world. So how does that work?
In the end your the smuck. You resent those americans that your making a good living off of and publicly denounse them. Please, please. Stay in China. Make it your home. And when the communist government takes it all away from you because you should share the wealth don't come back here.

Bob Danielson

 

[rhncue]

Go Jayman,


John, "The US Government spends the vast majority of the money it spends on the running of the government and programs inside the USA. Foreign aid is about 1% of GDP. Don't confuse the trade deficit with the national debt. They don't have anything to do with each other. The government collects taxes based on profits and if those profits are higher for companies that import then they pay more in taxes."
"It's a fallacy to blame taxes for an inability to compete. You pay taxes when you earn profits so it's not as if the government is holding you up and collecting money before you get a chance to sell something."

I never confused the trade deficit with the national debt. The FEDERAL government collects taxes based on profits yes. State and local governments collect taxes based on many things, not just profits. If americans were not servicing the national debt they would have more of those profits still in their pockets to compete with.
As for it being a fallacy to blame taxes for an inablity to complete I don't know what planet you live on. Please explain why companies more to another city, another state or another country to compete. Tell me why Boeing moved from Washington State and is now outsourcing to China. Could it have anything to due with taxes??? Could it have anything to due with it trying to compete with unfair help from the UE to Airbus???

John. "I knew I shouldn't have jumped into this. The ignorance and bigorty is staggering. Instead, lazily, people just regurgitate ignorant sensationalist headlines rather than to go and fack check. It's depressing to share a common citizenship with people who have all the freedom and time to educate themselves and they don't."

Wow John. You have outdone yourself there. You complain about sensationalis headlines ( and I wish you would point those out to me ) and send us to Hannity. You call us bigots because we don't believe exactly do. You twist our words to the furthest realm of meaning than call us ignorant. Those ignorant, bigoted people are your customers. Or maybe were your customers. Yes, there are some ignorant people in America. I would bet there are some ignorant people in China also. But you make the statement that they spend huge amounts of money coming here to get educated. Hhhmm. Someone here must be smart. And who came to China to teach them what they now know. And what are all those consulting fees for that you say along with tourist and such bring in $200+ billion to the USA every year. They did not figure it out for themselves. No, some smuck from the USA gave them the technology and showed them what to do with it. Not just in cues but hundreds of others industries. I for one am smart enough to never be a customer of one of your cases.

John, "So basically what you want to say is that we need to defend our "right" to continue this level of consumption and deny it to everyone else? No one else is allowed to have any prosperity if it means we have to give up a little of ours?"

No, John. That is now what I want to say. Once again you twist someones words. You seem to see no middle ground. But somehow you would like to see Communism and Capitalism combined. That everyone should have the ability to have the same as everyone else by whatever means possible. Oh... Communist China. I get it.
The "right". No, I would not call it a right. But I do see it as something that was once "earned" but has now been overused. There were these little things called World War I and World War II and a few other little tusssles along the way. In them we defended your "right" to do pretty much as you please and say prettly much what you want. If you want to believe that there should be no tariffs or restrictions on imported goods than that is fine. If you think that China should claim a lower value for its currency so that it can sell goods at a lower price, with actual cost lower than claimed in an effort to put US companies out of business than you can go right ahead.

In the end it is you that can't have it both ways. You can not expect to call us stupid and to sell us something. You can not expect to have capitalsim and communism, one gives way to the other. And you can not expect that the Chinese government will slow its military growth because now it has capitalism to fund itself. Tell me ( actually, please don't! ) what will happen when the money runs out. When all those who left the fields have to return but now there is now work for them there either. A little unrest? A little pressure on the government to do something about it? Naw, how could I even think such a thing.

John. " The economic crisis is here because most Americans are completely ignorant of how money works and are completely clueless about how to manage their money. Thus they bought houses they couldn't afford and banks let them do it because everyone was making money selling the loans to other companies, more loans made means more commissions. Your own people swindled you - all the Chinese did was to make all the stuff you kept buying on credit to fill up those houses you can't afford."

The economic crisis did not start with the housing issue. With us "clueless people". The crisis started many years ago when someone decided that a global economy based on consumerism would line their pockets full of gold. When jobs were outsourced to other countries based on cost not quality. When they got greedy. Then when they were taxed on those high profits they bought a house and moved the business to another country to avoid taxes ( which you say have no effect on anything ).

John. "You cannot look at a number like the trade deficit which only measures goods in vs. goods out. There will always be trade deficits of that nature between nations with widely different economies. Chinese people can't yet afford to consume like Americans do - but they are trying."

Yes, yes. Lets see. Math 101. 300m use 25% of resouces. 300m into 1.3b is a little over 4.3. 4.3 x 25% = 100.15%. Add 25% is 125.15% of resources and that does not count the rest of the world. So how does that work?
In the end your the smuck. You resent those americans that your making a good living off of and publicly denounse them. Please, please. Stay in China. Make it your home. And when the communist government takes it all away from you because you should share the wealth don't come back here.

Bob Danielson

"Yes, yes. Lets see. Math 101. 300m use 25% of resouces. 300m into 1.3b is a little over 4.3. 4.3 x 25% = 100.15%. Add 25% is 125.15% of resources and that does not count the rest of the world. So how does that work?"

I've tried to understand your post by reading it three times but the best that I can figure is that you need to take an adult education class for math as it's very apparent that you must have been playing pool when the "101" was taught in primary school.

Dick

 

[rhncue]

Its not the taxes that get in the way of American cue manufacturing, whether that be production or custom. It is not even the cheap Chinese labor, even though that is one component.

John, I ask you these questions;

What are your EPA standards?
What portion of the wages you pay your employees go to a nationalized retirement account(social security)?
When was the last time OSHA visited you?
Are your employees protected by workman's compensation?
Do they have health insurance?
How do your employee's wages compare to the USA's minimum wage?

I ask you these not to start a fight or to continue the ones already started but I am genuinely interested. I feel that the US gets blamed for the world's problems, especially pollution. If my shop has to comply with EPA standards and minimum social standards, we should add an import tax to any county that does not meet our minimums.

Rat, You say that Chinese cheap labor is only one factor involved and then give other factors but of all the examples you give, other than your first and fourth examples, are part of wages.

Dick

 

[rhncue]

I never have understood why an experienced cue maker would have to correct point length.

Oh. I see. So every cue you have ever built just miraculously had perfect point lengths or that it doesn't matter to you if they are the same length? I'm not sure by your comment. Mine usually come out pretty close to, but certainly not perfect. Actually it doesn't hurt the quality or playing characteristics of a cue if the points are exactly equal in length or not but some people equate equal length to quality where actually it is just cosmetic. I have to often found that some hold others to higher levels of perfection, that they can't achieve themselves, but are more than happy to comment on on any chance available.

Dick

 

[bdcues]

Alright DICK,
Pay attention. They don't add up. That is the whole point. John proposes that everyone should be able to enjoy what we enjoy or otherwise we are the greedy ones. No doubt, we are greedy. But part of that greed was producing things for those without, not just for the lowest possible price. That is what made ours the largest economy in the world. We have now been replaced by Chinas. The point is that global comsumerism does not work as proven by the lack of resources to supply everybody in the world with the same level of comfort or luxury. A simple case in point was all the construction in america that stopped because there was no cement to be had because it was all going to China to build the damn. This is only one small point for the case. Companies unable to pay huge shipping costs due to increases in fuel costs brought about by increased demand are moving their companies and production back to the country of origin and building new factories closer to the final user. Resources are finite. To think that 1.3b people are going to raise their standard of living (pay) and it will not cause trouble world wide is that grammer school instruction you must have missed. You must have not read the line where I ask and you quote - So how does that work?"