Fit and Finish.

I have read many glowing reports about JB cases. No one, in my memory, has ever suggested they were of inferior quality and craftsmanship. I think it is safe to say that you occupy a spot in the top 3 high end case makers.

Having said all that....let me get to the heart of the matter. I wanted a case (3x7) that would afford protection from everyday occurances. The occasional inadvertent knock to the floor.....the toss into the back seat....etc. I also wanted functionallity.....the ability to store the accessories with easy access to same. I wanted quality construction within reason......not bullet proof.....but without obvious flaws. and last but certainly not least.....a reasonable price. That last part is what prevented my considering a JB case. JB fills every expectation a reasonable case owner could demand.....but I suspect the majority of folks are in much the same position as myself.....$300 + is simply more than they want to spend if all they require is a well constructed case that provides a reasonable degree of protection. I found the answer to my quest in the Pro-Series cases. No they do not look as nice, no they aren't as bulletproof as yours, no they wont appreciate in value. But they do provide what I was looking for without paying half as much as I did for the cue inside. If I do reach the point where money is no object....and I wish to have all the railbirds oooohing and ahhhhhhing.....I will most certainly give JB my undivided attention.......Dan
 
Reasonable cost for protection of my cues through general use and weather variations. I'm probably one of the few that doesn't care so much about outside design, mine being very utilitarian in appearance, nothing too fancy. I would like to see good workmanship so my case zippers don't break (has happenned to me). Cases that are designed for comfort of carrying as a woman with small shoulders, I like cases that actually stay on my shoulders and don't constantly slip off and that aren't too heavy. I would actually love to see a case that has an option of carrying it across both shoulders like golf bags for those long walks or even little wheels so I can just drag it. :) I know I'm going to be branded lazy, but there have been some tournys that make you walk a mile and I start to look a little lopsided after awhile trying to adjust to my case constantly as I'm walking. :)
 
John

I have got 2 cases from you so far, and I was more than impressed on I got both of them.

Besides few personal perference on custome modification, I'm very satisified with the qualities of your cases!!!
No need to feel too bad when some cann't see or agree with wat you believe or where you put your heart is, which is why we have options!

keep good works coming
 
Can you post some pics of the hideous case that you are starting this thread over. I would like to see it!

You spoke ok the instroke cases and the flaws with them. I hava a 3 x 5 right now and I really like it. It does all of the things you said a case should do! My only regret is the latch to the compartment that holds the butts, is coming off of the case. The fastener that goes through a hole in the lid and turns 90 degrees to lock the lid shut, is coming apart. This sucks because I really like this case and it does what I need.

Is it possible to fix that fastener?
 
I bought an old Instroke case from a user here that JB dated around 1993. I have only had the case for about a year but it has held up very well for me so far and I don't foresee any problems with it in the future. I believe that when it comes to any product you should get what you pay for, its up to the public to figure out what is marketing hype and who is actually producing a quality product. Quality products, or products placed within their proper price range, will stand the test of time and remain at the top, a lesser product being marketed as top shelf will eventually fade away. Its nice to see come competition between top of the line case makers. Competition keeps everyone on their toes and ensures that they're striving to deliver the best product they can produce, works out well for the consumer. (Isn't this like basic Economics or something? Not sure as I am a High School dropout with a two year Culinary degree, edumication is lacking.)
 
I share the same thoughts on leather dye consistency.

The Flowers tribute and GTF Prestige are both well designed with their new interior design (probably the best). But the finish is were I see improvements could be made. Very happy with both cases.
 
center pocket said:
Can you post some pics of the hideous case that you are starting this thread over. I would like to see it!

You spoke ok the instroke cases and the flaws with them. I hava a 3 x 5 right now and I really like it. It does all of the things you said a case should do! My only regret is the latch to the compartment that holds the butts, is coming off of the case. The fastener that goes through a hole in the lid and turns 90 degrees to lock the lid shut, is coming apart. This sucks because I really like this case and it does what I need.

Is it possible to fix that fastener?
Click to expand...

I should post pix. But I don't want to start any more case wars.

I just want this to be a wake up call to consumers that they should expect a lot more of so-called high end leather cases. I want people to take a really good look at what they are paying $500+ for and to decide if they would accept the same "quality" if they bought any other type of leather goods for that price.

Maybe I am just too obsessed about this but when I buy something that costs a lot of money I expect it to be well made and function with a higher degree of service. I understand that some people probably don't know what "well made" is in leather goods. We talk about this all the time on the leather workers forum. It's too bad that "quality" is so hard to define and that so few people have experienced really high quality leather goods in their lives.

Instroke is a good example of a case that is the result of what I call continuous improvement.

The pocket latch however is not a good latch for a high use environment. When I first designed this case and picked these latches I thought they were the nuts. I never thought that they would break so easily.

I designed a new latch specifically for the cue case with two rivets and a larger base and Instroke Taiwan had it made. This latch is practically indestructible. They don't use this latch on the pockets though.

The pocket latch is easily changed. Go to www.frankscenterinc.com who is the Instroke Repair center for America and tell them what you need and they should be able to get you fixed up.
 
JB Cases said:
I should post pix. But I don't want to start any more case wars.

I just want this to be a wake up call to consumers that they should expect a lot more of so-called high end leather cases. I want people to take a really good look at what they are paying $500+ for and to decide if they would accept the same "quality" if they bought any other type of leather goods for that price.

Maybe I am just too obsessed about this but when I buy something that costs a lot of money I expect it to be well made and function with a higher degree of service. I understand that some people probably don't know what "well made" is in leather goods. We talk about this all the time on the leather workers forum. It's too bad that "quality" is so hard to define and that so few people have experienced really high quality leather goods in their lives.
Click to expand...




Your obsession John is not a bad thing, try to constantly be best, and improve what you have done before is not a bad thing.

Paying over $500.00 for a Case that is not quality, and poorly made, or made wrong is a BAD THING.

Sadly I had one of those experiences, and is was $745.00, and I would never recommend anyone ever do business with this individual again. His word was nothing more than lip service!
 
ndp said:
I bought an old Instroke case from a user here that JB dated around 1993. I have only had the case for about a year but it has held up very well for me so far and I don't foresee any problems with it in the future. I believe that when it comes to any product you should get what you pay for, its up to the public to figure out what is marketing hype and who is actually producing a quality product. Quality products, or products placed within their proper price range, will stand the test of time and remain at the top, a lesser product being marketed as top shelf will eventually fade away. Its nice to see come competition between top of the line case makers. Competition keeps everyone on their toes and ensures that they're striving to deliver the best product they can produce, works out well for the consumer. (Isn't this like basic Economics or something? Not sure as I am a High School dropout with a two year Culinary degree, edumication is lacking.)
Click to expand...

Let me tell you that I thought the same thing.

I thought that competition drives everyone to provide more product for less money. We all learn from each other and products thus evolve into being the best quality at the lowest possible price.

But lately I am not sure.

I think that the world today is more about who can take the prettiest pictures and market themselves in the widest possible way.

Especially in cue cases.

In the sporting world cue cases occupy a special niche. In no other sport is there as wide a range of choices for the consumer as far as I can see.

And in no other sport are the cases so expensive on average and so invisible to the user as to how well they work.

It seems that the billiard consumer exists to be taken advantage of. Given that few people who spend $500+ on a case are willing to stand up and tell everyone what a piece of crap it is it follows that consumers will continue to get "high end" cases that are crap. The consumer participates in the "marketing hype" because they want to preserve the resale possibility, they want to preserve the relationship with the case maker, they don't want to look stupid for buying something that bad....etc....

I don't know, I used to think that people are just inherently smarter than that.

It's not that I want to "out" any particular case maker. But I will say that any customer who gets a piece of crap and accepts it is complicit in allowing the case maker to continue to deliver crap. And if a customer goes on to give it a favorable review when they know better then they are guilty of defrauding their fellow consumers.

So I am really at a loss to figure out how anyone can trade their money for subpar quality and just take it without protest.

Well, whatever. It's just a rant that stems from a real sense of disappointment with a product that I had imagined would really be much much better than it actually is.

I need to go focus on the things that I need to do better.

Later,

John
 
mrmagoo42 said:
The Flowers tribute and GTF Prestige are both well designed with their new interior design (probably the best). But the finish is were I see improvements could be made. Very happy with both cases.
Click to expand...

Well tell me what you mean. Only with feedback from the field do I know what I need to improve.

I can do all the testing I want at the shop and I will still not be able to replicate all the ways that cases get used and abused in real life.
 
As the owner of an original Jay Flowers case, I am very pleased with my JB, Jay Flowers Tribute case.
The case is flawless, it is just want I wanted, i'm old school and like a tube case.
The fit is excellent, shafts & butts fit just perfect, easy to get out and easy to put in, the inside has the perfect space so the joint protectors
don't stick up to high.
The pockets, zippers and snaps are all the highest quality, the finish is easy to clean and maintain.

Now as for John, he provides the same friendly service that Jay did, he takes pride in his work and it shows in the final product.
 
Humidity.

Air tight seal is more important than many people are aware- if the humidity changes too quickly, and a cue is exposed to these humidity changes, then you really start to see major changes it a cue, the rings pop, the points raise up, the glue seams sometimes fail, etc.

-It seems to me that a case is made to protect the cue and if you are not adressing the control of humidity, then all the decoration of the leather on the exterior is akin to putting perfume on a pig.-
 
This is hard to describe but I will give it a try.

On my GTF Prestige the finish and color on the leather was flawless except along the edges of all seams and shoulder strap that appear darker and uneven. Again I know nothing about the process but this case is a pumpkin color so that might contribute to that effect. Hope this sheds some light. I will finish by saying I am happy with this case and just trying to add to the discussion of fit and finish as it is important to me. Hopefully in the near future I hope to order a custom from you. Thanks for your hard work and comments in this forum.
 
mrmagoo42 said:
On my GTF Prestige the finish and color on the leather was flawless except along the edges of all seams and shoulder strap that appear darker and uneven. Again I know nothing about the process but this case is a pumpkin color so that might contribute to that effect. Hope this sheds some light. I will finish by saying I am happy with this case and just trying to add to the discussion of fit and finish as it is important to me. Hopefully in the near future I hope to order a custom from you. Thanks for your hard work and comments in this forum.
Click to expand...

Thanks. I do agree that some of the GTF cases and frankly a lot of the cases we have done could have had better edge work. We have greatly improved in the past two years on this as I have been studying edging a lot at www.leatherworker.net to pick up various techniques.

Nice done edge work is definitely something that says QUALITY

It's often neglected or done half-assed. As I have found out it's also a something where you can do the edge and it looks great right after you finish coloring it but then an hour later the dye has soaked in unevenly.

So now we do the edges and put the parts away and come back to them a day later and do another coat where needed. Previously we were doing the coloring and immediately putting the parts together with the result being that when the dye would dry unevenly it was a tricky and time consuming effort to even them out.

Frankly this is fairly new for me as in my previous case business I made it a point to have almost exclusively folded edges on all parts. So I have had to learn to do edge work using the best practices and then teach that to my staff.

It really is the icing on the cake when done well though.
 
breakshot said:
Air tight seal is more important than many people are aware- if the humidity changes too quickly, and a cue is exposed to these humidity changes, then you really start to see major changes it a cue, the rings pop, the points raise up, the glue seams sometimes fail, etc.

-It seems to me that a case is made to protect the cue and if you are not adressing the control of humidity, then all the decoration of the leather on the exterior is akin to putting perfume on a pig.-
Click to expand...

I think that there is merit to this. Jack Justis and I had a discussion years ago and his point is that the cues SHOULD have air flow around them. He lives in Florida where the ambient humidity stays high so I guess he has plenty of experience there. I did some online research and found that most people recommend not exposing wood products to a lot of changing conditions. However when a wood product is properly aged and treated then it can withstand quite a bit of environmental abuse.

I tend to think that it's something where the cue's construction is the primary factor in whether the cue develops issues and the case can possibly slow it down but if the wood is going to move then it's going to move eventually no matter what case it's in. Unless the case is hermetically sealed and kept at a constant temperature which is nearly impossible and impractical for cases designed to be transportable.

What I do however to address this issue is to use fabric which does not absorb moisture very well. This allows it to stay dry.

The homegrown experiments I do in order to determine whether a fabric is suitable in this area is really simple. I put the fabric on a glass of hot water and see how much of the evaporating water it absorbs. You can feel it pretty easily. Take a piece of felt, like the old original J.E.F Q cases used, or the current Swift cases, and do this experiment and you can feel how heavy and wet the fabric gets.

Now to me, the amateur guesser, this indicates that in a high humidity environment that the felt liner will take on and retain moisture longer than another type of fabric which does not get as wet and heavy in the experiment I outlined above.

Another thing I do is seal up the bottoms of the case. I think that the moisture will evaporate and escape through the top.

On the GTF cases however the case is sealed more than our other ones and so on those I guess the moisture is just held in some sort of equilibrium inside the case. I am really way out of my depth trying to guess the dynamics of particles floating inside that case.

But if you like to have a case where you have a nice seal then the GTF is the ticket. Sometimes the case seals so well that it takes a little effort to break it when opening the lid and you hear a pop when the lid comes off.

I have played around with o-rings, various types of foam rubber and so on to seal the case. Now we have another idea that works pretty good but means we have to add space to the top.

I have thought of using dessicant packs of silica but found that they get full quickly and then are of no use until they are dried out with heat.

So at the end of the day I agree that a case should address the issue of trying to protect against undue moisture and provide some insulation against temperature change to allow the cue to slowly acclimate to it's environment.

I do this with the fabric I mentioned above and foam rubber. The insulation however is just a by-product of using the foam rubber to keep the cue safely snug in the case. I didn't intentionally design the interior to be extra insulating, it just worked out that way.
 
Some info on what case makers can control and what they can't.

Zippers - we can do our best to buy zippers which are from good sources but there is no telling when a zipper will fail. Zippers are made by the millions of yards a day and you just can't tell when a tooth is going to break or the zipper head is going to catch. What the case maker can control is to test the parts they use as best they can so they are reasonably sure that nothing will happen. They can make sure that zipper heads have enough clearance and zipper pulls are strong enough to stay togehter. I just had this problem on one batch of production cases. I thought the zipper pulls were strong enough and they turned out to not be so good. So now I have found some that are practically indestructible. The way zippers are made hasn't changed fundamentally in the past 60 or so years so really it's just a question of how well the manufacturer does their job and the quality of the materials. For the case maker it's about finding a good trustworthy supplier.

Metal Parts - this one is the same as zippers - good supply equals good parts. Cheap metal parts that fail a lot are made with a lot zinc and good ones are made of iron, stainless steel alloys and brass.

Latches - very few latches are suitable for tube cases. This is simply because tube cases occupy a sort of in-between segment of the market. They are not purses but they are not heavy duty instrument cases either. Nice latches are either made for light applications such as purses or they are made to industrial strength for tough conditions. There is VERY RARELY anything in the middle. So cue case makers who use latches are often using ones that are not suited to slinging 4-8lbs where the weight is on the latch. This stresses the latch attachment to the case as well as the latch itself. The casemaker can and should take this into account when building the case.

A latch that is designed for a purse is almost never suitable for a cue case in my experience. That experience came at the price of having to replace hundreds of such latches over the years on my Instroke cases and having had to deal with a reputation of having a case where the latches break.

Now I am obsessed with finding the ultimate solution which requires the fewest moving parts while being easy to use and easy to repair IF it should happen to break. Unfortunately it has to still look decent which is the downfall of many designs I have developed in the past two years.

Sagging - Most tube cases consist of two parts, the interior unit and the exterior covering. It's pretty simple, the interior slides into the exterior. But of course if it slides in then it can be pushed out as the leather crumples at the bottom. There are a variety of ways that this problem can be solved. I won't detail them here but it is something that is 100% solvable and there is no excuse other than poor engineering or laziness if you have a high end case that sags at the bottom. I have been guilty of both poor engineering and laziness in the past in this regard.

Ergonomics - How well does the case carry? This one is really more of an issue in the past 10 years since league tournaments have grown so big that they are the type of events where you are holding your case either on your shoulder or in you hand for long periods of time and for long distances. It is something that case makers can address and have addressed to varying degrees. Justis and Whitten made their cases lighter. Talisman, Murnak and myself provide backpack style straps. Others provide larger and wider straps. Handles are fairly comfortable and don't bite into the hand. I know however that on a lot of cases I make though that I am not providing the type of comfort that I prefer. This is often in deference to maintaining a certain "look". So just remember that these are things which every case maker CAN change. Whether they will or not is another story.

Cue Protection - are we back to this again? Only to say that this is 100% something that every case maker decides consciously how much or how little to provide. You, as the consumer should take a LONG LONG LONG look at how the case is built. If you have one of those little super bright L.E.D. flashlights then look inside the case. Check it out thoroughly and be sure that you are happy with what is going to be rubbing against your cue.

Stress Points - handles, latches, lids, all the parts that hold your case togehter and are getting pulled on and bent. Are these places strong and durable? The case maker can and should reinforce these points. Again a cue case is not a normal bag. It's long and thin and gets caught on things. It's often hanging with all the weight concnetrated on one point. If that point happens to be one single rivet then eventually that rivet is likely to fail if not sufficiently reinforced. So check these areas, tug on them, try to get a feel for how well they can handle being used a lot.

Well, that's it really. Of course I could go on and on and on and on about the exciting world of making cue cases but I think you get the point.

I don't know where this quote comes from but it's apt here.

"People (case makers in this situation) don't respect what you EXPECT, they respect what you INSPECT."

Only when you stand up and say that you have inspected it and found it lacking will they think about changing it. If you expect more but get less and say nothing then they have no reason to change for the better.
 
JB Cases said:
Going from the frying pan and into the fire.

Ok I didn't want to discuss this in CC's "perfect case" thread.

And before I get into this rant let me just say that there is no such thing as a perfect cue case. Not ours, not anyone's.

But what I want to know is what level of quality you find acceptable?
[...]
Click to expand...

Indeed there is no perfect case, it all depends on the customer's wishes. For example, I just replaced my nice expensive croco leather case with a cheap Buffallo prime skai-leather case because the latter has cavernous side pockets that takes all my pool junk.

I want my cases functional first. Here are the features I would like if you were to build *my* perfect case:

- Hard cue 3x5 case with well separated shafts and butts, and big semi-rigid exterior pockets

- Velvet interior to protect my shafts and butts. If, like other posters experienced, there's a nail sticking inside the case and my cue(s) get damaged, I'll personally come slice you into thin strips with a very large machete.

- Slightly oversized butt tubes: I have leather sheaths on my butts, and most cases offer too tight a fit.

- Bomb-proof fittings (top cap, handle and shoulder strap). Make it ugly if you want, I don't care, but make it solid.

- Exterior as plain as possible, looking unattractive at first glance. I saw the pictures of your cases, they're gorgeous alright, but they're also thief magnets.

- On the side of the case, at the bottom, 2 deep notches, so that when the case is horizontal on a table or a high chair, it serves as a cue rest.

- Ideally (but maybe I'm asking much), embedded in the top cap, a motion detector alarm, like those gadgets you can find for laptops (this one for example), so I can stick my cues in the case and set the alarm before going for a leak without worrying about my stuff getting stolen.

- The finish should be good, not for looks, but to withstand years of abuse.

That would be my ideal case :)
 
JB Cases said:
Thanks. I do agree that some of the GTF cases and frankly a lot of the cases we have done could have had better edge work. We have greatly improved in the past two years on this as I have been studying edging a lot at www.leatherworker.net to pick up various techniques.

Nice done edge work is definitely something that says QUALITY

It's often neglected or done half-assed. As I have found out it's also a something where you can do the edge and it looks great right after you finish coloring it but then an hour later the dye has soaked in unevenly.

So now we do the edges and put the parts away and come back to them a day later and do another coat where needed. Previously we were doing the coloring and immediately putting the parts together with the result being that when the dye would dry unevenly it was a tricky and time consuming effort to even them out.

Frankly this is fairly new for me as in my previous case business I made it a point to have almost exclusively folded edges on all parts. So I have had to learn to do edge work using the best practices and then teach that to my staff.

It really is the icing on the cake when done well though.
Click to expand...

I don't know if this would help, but a friend of mine was at the Stickley furniture factory and they have a lady whose full time job is to use a felt tip marker to touch up ALL the edges of their furniture.

Jeff Livingston
 
CaptainHook said:
As the owner of an original Jay Flowers case, I am very pleased with my JB, Jay Flowers Tribute case.
The case is flawless, it is just want I wanted, i'm old school and like a tube case.
The fit is excellent, shafts & butts fit just perfect, easy to get out and easy to put in, the inside has the perfect space so the joint protectors
don't stick up to high.
The pockets, zippers and snaps are all the highest quality, the finish is easy to clean and maintain.

Now as for John, he provides the same friendly service that Jay did, he takes pride in his work and it shows in the final product.
Click to expand...

Another happy customer.
 
JB Cases said:
The consumer participates in the "marketing hype" because they want to preserve the resale possibility, they want to preserve the relationship with the case maker, they don't want to look stupid for buying something that bad....etc....
Click to expand...

John
That's exactely what I thought about those hypes, and seems you got them right on, now go use those extra energy make some more extraoridinary cases!!:wink:
 
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