Fit and Finish.
- Thread starter JB Cases
- Start date
Fit & Finish
Believe it or not John, I think your ideas are really good. Some might be showing up in my cases soon.:wink: On the other hand when someone comments positive about other case makers, don't take it as a direct threat to your own business. Countering with unsavory comments or video comparisons is not going to help. I think you are doing a great job offering a quality case for a reasonable price but mass or semi-mass produced cases will never compare in "fit and finish" or quality with cases made exclusively by the same craftsman from start to finish day after day. Unfortunately, I had to find this out the hard way just recently
These un retouched snapshots were taken by me with a 5 Megapixel, "point and shoot" camera costing less than $150. I have never used the services of a professional photographer. I mention this since someone made a comment that professionally made photos sold cases.
These photos are just to show the standard "fit and finish" you can be assured of receiving with every Justis case.
Believe it or not John, I think your ideas are really good. Some might be showing up in my cases soon.:wink: On the other hand when someone comments positive about other case makers, don't take it as a direct threat to your own business. Countering with unsavory comments or video comparisons is not going to help. I think you are doing a great job offering a quality case for a reasonable price but mass or semi-mass produced cases will never compare in "fit and finish" or quality with cases made exclusively by the same craftsman from start to finish day after day. Unfortunately, I had to find this out the hard way just recently
These un retouched snapshots were taken by me with a 5 Megapixel, "point and shoot" camera costing less than $150. I have never used the services of a professional photographer. I mention this since someone made a comment that professionally made photos sold cases.
These photos are just to show the standard "fit and finish" you can be assured of receiving with every Justis case.
Fit and Finish
Below are the rest of the photos.
Below are the rest of the photos.
I don't take anything as a direct threat to my case business Jack. As you know we are making cases from $3 sleeves to $2500 unique works of art. As I now have three year's worth of experience in China I am confident that no other case maker large or small can challenge our ability to deliver top quality in any price range. As I said though in my initial post when another case maker's work is touted as the best then I want to see why.
I do this from a purely competitive aspect as I desire to learn everything I can about case making and if someone is doing something that works better than what I am doing then I want to learn it and use it to make our cases better. And IF, as this particular situation proves, there are many flaws in the product, then I can KNOW this as well and be confident that the OPINION of those who tout it as a great and well made product are meritless.
You are however dead wrong about your comment that a mass or semi-mass produced item, or specifically a cue case, can never compare (as in be as good as or better than) a case made from start to finish by one person.
You know as well as I do that quality has nothing whatsoever to do with the number of people working on something. It is purely a question of what is allowed to go out of the shop. If the person responsible for the quality allows crap to go out then crap is what will be built. There are plenty of individual "craftsmen/women" around the world making crappy products because they either don't know better or don't care.
I don't know how many people worked on this case I am speaking of in this thread. It doesn't matter because the person whose name is on it is responsible for it and frankly it sucks. I am sure that you would agree were you to be able to inspect it.
As for photos, no one said anything about photos taken by professionals, my people simply said that "he takes good photos" in reference to this case. The idea being that no one can tell the poor quality from the pictures. As you aptly show us it doesn't take a professional nor professional gear to take good and flattering pictures of cue cases. But as you also know your pictures are still no substitute for having the case in your hands to inspect it nor do they show how well the case really protects the cues.
And this is really the big difference between the type of sales and reputaton that happens these days in the "information" age vs. how it was when people bought most things based on experiencing them. I have many customers who have not ever seen one of my cases in person and bought theirs based on my advertising, testimonials from others, seeing them hyped up by me and other customers, etc.... I am sure that you have some customers who have bought from you without ever having held a Justis in their hands. I am CERTAIN that many of Rusty Melton's customers and Jim Murnak's and Marc Turcasso's customers bought their cases based on pictures and testimonials on AZ.
And that's my point. When they do this they should have an expectation of getting a top quality made leather product.
But I am afraid that a lot of them don't even know what a top quality leather product is.
So when they get a cue case that is not top quality then they tout it as the greatest thing since sliced bread either because they genuinely don't know any better or because they know it sucks and don't want to be the first one to stand up and say so. Better to resell it and get as much as they can out of it and telling everyone how crappy it is would diminish the price they could get drastically.
What is it you said, something like everyone praises things that they want to sell?
Anyway, I know you know what I mean. Nice photos by the way. I really like to see it when you take the time to show close ups of your cases.
As I said in my videos and to you privately your cases are very well made. Even though you and I disagree about what level of protection a case should offer I feel that your exterior construction is very tight and well done. I have learned a lot by examining your case. Your case is definitely NOT the one I am speaking of in my initial post.
I spent $850 on this case that I got. That's how much money I would have gotten for the case I traded. Had I bought this case new from the maker I would have spent around 5 to 600.
All I am saying is that in my opinion, for $600 I should get top quality leather work and solid construction.
I do this from a purely competitive aspect as I desire to learn everything I can about case making and if someone is doing something that works better than what I am doing then I want to learn it and use it to make our cases better. And IF, as this particular situation proves, there are many flaws in the product, then I can KNOW this as well and be confident that the OPINION of those who tout it as a great and well made product are meritless.
You are however dead wrong about your comment that a mass or semi-mass produced item, or specifically a cue case, can never compare (as in be as good as or better than) a case made from start to finish by one person.
You know as well as I do that quality has nothing whatsoever to do with the number of people working on something. It is purely a question of what is allowed to go out of the shop. If the person responsible for the quality allows crap to go out then crap is what will be built. There are plenty of individual "craftsmen/women" around the world making crappy products because they either don't know better or don't care.
I don't know how many people worked on this case I am speaking of in this thread. It doesn't matter because the person whose name is on it is responsible for it and frankly it sucks. I am sure that you would agree were you to be able to inspect it.
As for photos, no one said anything about photos taken by professionals, my people simply said that "he takes good photos" in reference to this case. The idea being that no one can tell the poor quality from the pictures. As you aptly show us it doesn't take a professional nor professional gear to take good and flattering pictures of cue cases. But as you also know your pictures are still no substitute for having the case in your hands to inspect it nor do they show how well the case really protects the cues.
And this is really the big difference between the type of sales and reputaton that happens these days in the "information" age vs. how it was when people bought most things based on experiencing them. I have many customers who have not ever seen one of my cases in person and bought theirs based on my advertising, testimonials from others, seeing them hyped up by me and other customers, etc.... I am sure that you have some customers who have bought from you without ever having held a Justis in their hands. I am CERTAIN that many of Rusty Melton's customers and Jim Murnak's and Marc Turcasso's customers bought their cases based on pictures and testimonials on AZ.
And that's my point. When they do this they should have an expectation of getting a top quality made leather product.
But I am afraid that a lot of them don't even know what a top quality leather product is.
So when they get a cue case that is not top quality then they tout it as the greatest thing since sliced bread either because they genuinely don't know any better or because they know it sucks and don't want to be the first one to stand up and say so. Better to resell it and get as much as they can out of it and telling everyone how crappy it is would diminish the price they could get drastically.
What is it you said, something like everyone praises things that they want to sell?
Anyway, I know you know what I mean. Nice photos by the way. I really like to see it when you take the time to show close ups of your cases.
As I said in my videos and to you privately your cases are very well made. Even though you and I disagree about what level of protection a case should offer I feel that your exterior construction is very tight and well done. I have learned a lot by examining your case. Your case is definitely NOT the one I am speaking of in my initial post.
I spent $850 on this case that I got. That's how much money I would have gotten for the case I traded. Had I bought this case new from the maker I would have spent around 5 to 600.
All I am saying is that in my opinion, for $600 I should get top quality leather work and solid construction.
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Hi Jack,
is this why I don't see any Justis East-cases on the market?
Best regards,
Detlev
Hi Detlev,
You will see them in the "wanted for sale" section and ebay sometime. Not 100% sure about your question.
JB Cases
John I got a case 1x2 hard case it looks like my old Fellini. I think it's great. Got it thru Indy Cues.I also have your Instroke Buffalo 2x4. Built like a tank. Love em both. Keeps my Mottey and Stinger snug and safe and did not break the bank. You really know your stuff. Keep up the GOOD work!
John I got a case 1x2 hard case it looks like my old Fellini. I think it's great. Got it thru Indy Cues.I also have your Instroke Buffalo 2x4. Built like a tank. Love em both. Keeps my Mottey and Stinger snug and safe and did not break the bank. You really know your stuff. Keep up the GOOD work!
I guess I have to confess that I really have no real idea what humidity does to cues in any way other than theoretical. Because to my knowledge no one has ever done any sort of comprehensive testing to find out how well a pool cue or better still how many different pool cues can withstand changes in humidity.
I once submerged one of my Instroke cases in the swimming pool in the back of our house to determine what it would take to get the water to go inside it. Dunking it rapidly and pulling it right out didn't do it. Dunking it for about 30 seconds allowed some water to get in and doing it for about a minutes allowed more water in. I didn't keep it under long enough (the water was cold) to let it fill up with water.
The cue came out fine. I dried it off and as I recall it didn't suffer at all.
I have read up on wood products and humidity.
Let me give a HUGE ROUND OF APPLAUSE to cue makers.
Because, as I have said many times, a cue is a precision instrument meant to be taken care of. Reading up on wood and humidity gives me even more appreciation for cue makers who build cues from wood. As you mentioned a cue is comprised of many wood parts joined by metal and plastic parts. It's clear that wood moves with humidity.
Cue makers therefore have to get the wood to the point that it's very stable when exposed to various levels of humidity. They have to account for a cue traveling from Las Vegas to South Florida and back just in the USA, not to mention all the places around the world that cues travel to.
This is an excert from this luthier's website, a luthier makes stringed instruments. http://www.ukuleles.com/Technology/humidmath.html
"In properly constructed furniture, the various parts of the piece are so constructed as to be able to move freely with changes in relative humidity. In contrast, the top of a musical instrument is constrained by being glued to the sides. The top of an instrument built at high relative humidity will be in tension at low relative humidity; conversely, the top of an instrument built at low humidity will be compressed at high relative humidity."
Here are two other webpages dedicated to wood and water: http://www.garyweeks.com/wood_moisture.htm http://www.woodfloorsonline.com/techtalk/woodwater1.html
And much more can be found online.
So it seems that the best case scenario is a case which keeps the cue at it's balanced moisture level.
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Let's do a hypothetical - again bearing in mind that I have ZERO actual data to add to this theoretical rambling and no idea how MUCH movement occurs and whether it's measurable, can be felt or not.
In our experiment the user lives in South Florida where the outside humidity is at around 80%. Indoors in the hyper-air conditioned buildings the humidity is at around 8%.
Ok. So in situation number one you have a cue that stays on the wall. The owner takes it out and using no case puts it in his car and drives one hour to the pool room. In that hour the cue was briefly subjected to 80% humidty twice for a few minutes and the rest of the time subjected to something between 80% and 8% in the air conditioned car. So during that hour it is absorbing moisture and swelling up.
BUT HOW MUCH and AT WHAT RATE?
Can it be felt? Is the cue actually heavier at the pool room than at the home? Does it get lighter if the humidity at the pool room is the same as home?
Now, in situation #2 the owner places the cue in a case that is forms a decent seal, say a 36" long Tupperware container. So the cue is sitting at 8% humidity. Now during the hour long drive to the pool room the cue stays at about 8% humidity because the case does not allow any more moisture in or out.
I think that we can surmise then that the cue stays in the same state that it was in at the house, not taking on any moisture.
I feel that this would be a fairly accurate representation of what would happen.
So I think that you are right. More moisture barriers are better. The best would be a fully sealed case that keeps the cue at the same moisture level as when it is indoors in the same humidity level as it was built under.
I think that this plays a big part when cues are stored in locations where the humidity changes. Using that Florida home as an example if the owner regularly opens all the windows and doors and turns off the air then the humidity level rises considerably inside. Thus a sealed case would ignore the ambient humidity and keep the cue safely at the same humidity level it was at when the cue was placed inside it.
BUT
Again we have no reliable data to tell us at what rate how finished pool cues on average respond to changes in humidity, be they gradual or sudden.
In other words we know that wood swells and gets heavier when it takes on water and gets lighter and shrinks when it sheds water.
BUT can this effect be felt with short exposures to different humidity levels?
I don't think so. But it may well be that this phenomena affects the "hit" of the cue, perhaps it is a little "heavier".
In any event I think that we can certainly all agree that the more a case slows down the exposure to varying degrees of moisture the better.
This case that started this rant actually seems to do a fairly decent job at forming a decent barrier to moisture. I give it a 5 out of 10 for that.
Infomerical: GTF Cases form a VERY GOOD seal against moisture. Not a 100% seal but certainly much better than most cases out there.
Here is an experiment we are doing with sealing the cases:
The idea here is similar to the cork in a bottle. We have used the laser to cut EVA foam precisely to fit inside the tube. The tube is lined with foam rubber backed fabric and when the lid presses in the denser EVA foam presses the fabric against the wall of the tube and forms a good seal. When it's opened it makes a satisfying -pop-.
Doing this would add length to the case as the plug takes up some room. I am sure that we can make it shorter and still have the same effect.
But I hope that this shows you that we are thinking about it and doing what we can to protect against moisture. I have thought about this a lot over the years and although I still believe that it's mostly up to the cue's construction how well it handles moisture I do agree that a case can help to protect the cue against the effects of moisture if it's built with that in mind.
cues
Most cues are sealed over the largest portion of their surface, maybe 95% or more. A careful cue maker may have it fully sealed. The parts that aren't sealed in some cues are carefully fitted and probably less likely to pass humidity than a case. For example a weight bolt and the bumper over it may be into raw wood that isn't sealed. Obviously there still isn't much actual exposure to open air.
Considering how long it will take humidity and temperature to stabilize in the outside air and in a cue case is worthwhile but isn't the primary thing that should control moisture in a cue. If a cue isn't sealed to begin with it will be moving around every time it is played with and the least of it's woes will be the brief time it is subjected to different conditions inside a case.
Hu
Most cues are sealed over the largest portion of their surface, maybe 95% or more. A careful cue maker may have it fully sealed. The parts that aren't sealed in some cues are carefully fitted and probably less likely to pass humidity than a case. For example a weight bolt and the bumper over it may be into raw wood that isn't sealed. Obviously there still isn't much actual exposure to open air.
Considering how long it will take humidity and temperature to stabilize in the outside air and in a cue case is worthwhile but isn't the primary thing that should control moisture in a cue. If a cue isn't sealed to begin with it will be moving around every time it is played with and the least of it's woes will be the brief time it is subjected to different conditions inside a case.
Hu
!! Good post !! Especially about the snob value!
Very interesting. Almost a reverse of the GFT lid, the GTF has a friction fit lid over the outside of the tube. This lid has the "cork" type friction on the inside of the tube.
Seems like if used the large lid sized tube the GTF is used to build the body of the case, and then used the smaller size tube of a GTF body to build the cap, you add the farbric that causes the friction to the cap in the section where it slides into the case. Thus creating the seal with the same principle but with the lid fitting into the case tube instead of over the outside.
It looks like in that picture you almost did just reverse the tubes used for a GTF and did just this. Is that a tube normally used for the body section of the GTF that is used for the lid and the tube used for the normal GTF lid as the body of the case?
<edit> NM, I read the rest of the post, turns out you did not do this.
You might want to try this, attempt to build a case out of the lid sized tube, and build the lid out of a small section of the case sized tube. Put the fabric that creates the friction on the outside of the lid section so that it slips into the larger case tube, probably fold it over and into the inside of the lid section and secrure it with glue or the like, much like the felt type of stuff folds back into the GTF. They should fit perfectly, in fact the GTF is almost a model of this if you simply imagine a GTF case as a really big lid, and a GTF lid as a really small case. put the lid on the ground opening facing up and the huge "lid" slides right into the small "case".
If the cap is in fact built out of a small diameter tube that fits inside of the case tude you simply have to add a cap to one end. Build up the outside area of an upper portion of the cap that becomes a rim that butts up flush against the case when the cap is fully inserted. And for the inside section of the tube that makes up the cap cut a section of memory foam just smaller then the inside section of the cap, cover one end and the sides with soft fabric like that which is used on the interior of the cases, and then slide it into the lid with glue to secure it to the cap at the top of the lid. Now the lid has a soft rebound center in the lid that mitigates shocks if the case is dropped, the pins would hit a soft memory foam area if the case was dropped on it's lid, although your interior itself would help make sure that the pins would hit with minimal force to begin with.
Done right this could be an amazing combination of the true air tight qualities of the GTF and the larger look and feel of the other types of cases.
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Thanks for the information. John tried some material in a drop test. Found some 1/4 soft rubber that worked better than thick leather. No damage to rubber, or block used for lid, or bottom. Thanks for all your free information.
The cork type cap is made from EVA foam that we cut with the laser. This method works for all tube sizes. We can do the same with wood.
What I think I want to do is develop a lid that seals but at the same time preserves the capacity inside the case.
When I get home I will be doing more development on this.
@ Schlosser - thanks for the thanks. Now return the favor and share with us what you found so the rest of us can benefit from it.
What i used was FDA grade white silicone 1/4 " thick. I think a 1/4 silicone would do fine but have not tested it. Good luck hope to read more post from you and Jack!!!