Weight vs speed

peteypooldude

peteypooldude

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I have been taught that your break cue should b a little lighter than the playing cue,because u can generate more cue speed,My break cue weighs 18 ounces and I get good results with it,but i also hear players wanting heavier break cues.Whats your take on it
 
I have a 21oz break cue w/ a hard tip. But if your talking about 9ball I just break with my playing cue. I have more control with a softer tip and a 19oz cue. But for 8ball I break out the 21oz and wack the hell out of em:grin: IMO a couple ounces aren't gonna make a difference. The debate over speed vs weight has been beaten to death on here if you search for it. :rolleyes: I like the comparison with club head speed in golf...more club head speed means more distance.
 
peteypooldude said:
I have been taught that your break cue should b a little lighter than the playing cue,because u can generate more cue speed,My break cue weighs 18 ounces and I get good results with it,but i also hear players wanting heavier break cues.Whats your take on it
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The power of your break comes from a combination of stick weight and speed. A change in stick weight changes power linearly (if your playing cue weighs 19 oz, then dropping an ounce of weight reduces power by 1/19 - about 5%). However, a change in speed changes power by the square of the change (increasing speed by 5% increases power by 10.25%). So moving a lighter stick faster should increase your break's power.

But your arm has a natural speed limit (the fastest it can move without a stick), so you can't necessarily move your arm faster just because your stick is an ounce or two lighter. Maybe your arm can reach its "natural speed limit" with any stick up to, say, 20 ounces, so you'd only gain speed if you were reducing your stick weight from something over that. But if you can gain speed (and retain accuracy) by dropping some stick weight, then you'll probably increase your break power.

pj
chgo
 
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peteypooldude said:
I have been taught that your break cue should b a little lighter than the playing cue,because u can generate more cue speed,My break cue weighs 18 ounces and I get good results with it,but i also hear players wanting heavier break cues.Whats your take on it
Click to expand...

The advice I gave my patrons was to use a break cue that was the same weight as their player. The reasoning, of course, was that becoming accustomed to two different cue weights wasn't necessary.
 
PJ, post correction, is correct.

Accuracy being the unknown in the equation.

I play with an 18.5 oz and break with a 17.75 oz.

A friend uses a 16 oz Schmelke with a phenolic tip and I've tried it. I can smash the rack but lose control of the CB completely unless I back off a bit.

LWW
 
The physics of breaking is very complicated, and not well explained by simple momentum transfer equations--which are more appropriate than kinetic energy equations. I suspect, but haven't proven, that a change in cue weight of just a couple of ounces has very little effect on break speed because of biomechanical considerations. Changing from a leather tip to a phenolic isn't even that big a deal...suppose you gain about 10% speedwise, which is what Bob Jewett and David Alciatore's results seem to suggest--that means a 20 MPH break becomes a 22 MPH break. Not a very significant difference. Besides that, high break speeds, due to complications in ball spreading, may not be the best way to break.

Concentrate on technique, not speed:

http://www.billiardsdigest.com/instruction/breaking.php
 
For thought;

I know that the slower the backswing and stroke, the more accurate you can contact the CB. (Within reason of course). Thats why everyone backs off their max speed because they lose the CB. If I maintain my same speed for accuracy, I can get a better break with a heavier cue; or I can slow down my swing a little more and get a comperable break with better accuracy.

So, I would think, a slower hit with a heavier cue is better than a slightly faster hit with a light cue, because it should be more accurate. Guess its best to first define your own individual limits in speed and weight, then adjust from there.
 
Bob Callahan:
...a 20 MPH break becomes a 22 MPH break. Not a very significant difference.
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Given the squaring function of speed increase, that's a 21% increase in power. Not massive, but I think it's getting in the neighborhood of significant.

pj
chgo
 
Of course, if your accuracy and timing aren't correct, the weight of the cue you use won't mean very much.
 
Railbird said:
Of course, if your accuracy and timing aren't correct, the weight of the cue you use won't mean very much.
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Thru the years I have played, my break has matured...kinda like me.

My break starts at my feet and it's very much a timing thing. It's much like how a fighter gains his power starting at his feet and turning into the punch/kick.

When I'm playing, I'm motionless (or try to be....). But when I'm breaking, it can be considered a controlled rage.

If your simply arm breaking, those rules apply. If your power breaking, how much strain your rotator cuff can take, plays a bigger factor.
 
One of the best 9 ball breaks..

One of the better 9 ball breaks I've seen, in power, consistency and cb control, was a 70 year old guy who played a good shortstop speed in his younger days. He used a 15 oz. house cue.
I use a 20 oz. Heubler b/j cue from around the early 80s and dream of breaking like he did. Just out of curiosity I should have asked him to break with my cue to see if it made a difference.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Given the squaring function of speed increase, that's a 21% increase in power. Not massive, but I think it's getting in the neighborhood of significant.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

That's true for kinetic energy, but I think we should be discussing in terms of linear momentum transfer:

http://everything2.com/title/conservation+of+momentum

I should clarify a couple of things I said before with some links. My thoughts on biomechanics and a very small change in speed with weight changes are based on my own experiences and that of Lee Simon documented in Bob Byrne's fine book:

http://www.cwalrafen.de/docs/searching_for_the_perfect_break_cue.pdf

The Alciatore/Jewett preliminary results on leather v. phenolic are in this video:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-42.htm
 
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Bob Callahan said:
That's true for kinetic energy, but I think we should be discussing in terms of linear momentum transfer...

My thoughts on biomechanics and a very small change in speed with weight changes are based on my own experiences and that of Lee Simon documented in Bob Byrne's fine book:

http://www.cwalrafen.de/docs/searching_for_the_perfect_break_cue.pdf
Click to expand...

If you're that Bob Callahan then this is clearly your thread to do with as you wish :) . Can you explain the difference between kinetic energy and linear momentum transfer in lay English?

pj
chgo
 
Railbird said:
Of course, if your accuracy and timing aren't correct, the weight of the cue you use won't mean very much.
Click to expand...

This is absolutely correct. All of the equations operate on the assumption of an exactly equally square hit in their comparison.

I would guess that a 1 MM difference in contact point with the CB could negate a 2 MPH increase in velocity.

LWW
 
Patrick Johnson said:
If you're that Bob Callahan then this is clearly your thread to do with as you wish :) .
Click to expand...

It's very kind of you to say this, but considering the strides made in understanding pool in the seventeen years I took off from playing and thinking about the science of it, I feel pretty dumb.
 
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