Ball hit with speed need to be over cut a bit more??

[enzo]

I disagree. The best way to see the effect is to hold a CB up against an OB and visualize a 1/2-ball hit (center-to-edge). Now slide the CB up on the OB, keeping the CB center in the CTE plane. You will clearly see that different cut angles result, which you can verify by tapping the OB with the CB at different positions.

Try it out,
Dave

PS: Your statement about this effect not affecting many jump shots might be true; because on many jump shots, the CB might not be airborne when it hits the OB.

respectfully, i did try it, just now and in the past. what is see as i slide the cb up is the contact plane moves forward on the ob, yet BACKWARD on the cb (necessarily backward an equal and opposite amount). truth is, i dont need to hold the balls up. since we are dealing with spheres i know that yes the cb will pass that point that would have been struck if it were sliding on the table, yet the cb will strike that spot further back on itself-- so it will exactly cancel out.

i think it would be good to just assume i'm right for a moment and rethink. otherwise we'll just go back and forth.

best, Enzo

 

[pt109]

a picture is worth a 1,000 words

respectfully, i did try it, just now and in the past. what is see as i slide the cb up is the contact plane moves forward on the ob, yet BACKWARD on the cb (necessarily backward an equal and opposite amount). truth is, i dont need to hold the balls up. since we are dealing with spheres i know that yes the cb will pass that point that would have been struck if it were sliding on the table, yet the cb will strike that spot further back on itself-- so it will exactly cancel out.

i think it would be good to just assume i'm right for a moment and rethink. otherwise we'll just go back and forth.

best, Enzo

Think of the cue ball as a ghost ball.As you slide the cue ball up the
object ball you see the cut change.The visual evidence is irrefutable.

 

[enzo]

Think of the cue ball as a ghost ball.As you slide the cue ball up the
object ball you see the cut change.The visual evidence is irrefutable.

i knew this would happen, i'm not gonna put up like 8 million posts about this... but you are right, the evidence is irrefutable!

as the cb slides up, the point of contact SEEMS to go forward (this is where the misconceptions of overcutting come from), yet the roundness of the cb (we ARE dealing with 2 spheres here) exactly counteracts that "forwardness" describes above by striking the cb further "back." what you guys are saying would only be true if the cb was struck on the same axis as would have with a sliding ball. but it doesn't, the cb is struck further back thus (exactly, and necessarily) counteracting the alleged "overcut effect."

again, this is complicated because at times, say on a thinner hit, the cb will actually jump over the true contact plane (toward the pocket). this can happen on thin hits, if the cb is exceptionally high, or a combo of both. but on many-- if not most-- jump shots, this will not happen.

i only ask people think and if im right maybe post it, if not great no biggie. i just dont like posting the same thing over and over. best!

 

[pt109]

i knew this would happen, i'm not gonna put up like 8 million posts about this... but you are right, the evidence is irrefutable!

as the cb slides up, the point of contact SEEMS to go forward (this is where the misconceptions of overcutting come from), yet the roundness of the cb (we ARE dealing with 2 spheres here) exactly counteracts that "forwardness" describes above by striking the cb further "back." what you guys are saying would only be true if the cb was struck on the same axis as would have with a sliding ball. but it doesn't, the cb is struck further back thus (exactly, and necessarily) counteracting the alleged "overcut effect."

again, this is complicated because at times, say on a thinner hit, the cb will actually jump over the true contact plane (toward the pocket). this can happen on thin hits, if the cb is exceptionally high, or a combo of both. but on many-- if not most-- jump shots, this will not happen.

i only ask people think and if im right maybe post it, if not great no biggie. i just dont like posting the same thing over and over. best!

I think you're in a Greek philosophy trap,like the turtle never getting
to it's destination by halving the distance.Down here on earth the ball
overcuts.
..I wonder what Jonnie Fulcher would think of this....

 

[Patrick Johnson]

enzo:
... the overcut effect we think exists upon impact by hitting the top of the ob will be counteracted by the curvature in the bottom of the cb.

The curvature of the bottom of the CB increases the overcut effect.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

This seems like a weird question, but it seems like when I have to force a ball into a pocket I automatically over cut it a bit. I don't even understand why I do this, but I do.

Does the object ball skid/slide more when it is struck harder? Is this the reason why you would have to over cut it a bit more than usual?

I find this is even more obvious with just a below centre hit. With a top spin stroke, with the same speed, it seems that I don't have to over cut it as much. What would be the reasons for this, if any.

Hit more full (undercut) when:
- hitting harder
- using outside spin
- using follow or draw

Hit less full (overcut) when:
- hitting softer
- using inside spin or no sidespin
- using stun (no follow or draw)

pj
chgo

 

[enzo]

The curvature of the bottom of the CB increases the overcut effect.

pj
chgo

well, there is no overcut effect, and parts of my explanations may get hazy because i have to refer to those things that dont exist so people may be able to understand-- like points of reference. unless the cb gets to a certain height (one in which i have no way to tell you how high as it depends on thickness of the cut), the cut angle will be the same weather the cb is in the air or on the felt.

first, you guys aren't understanding. i'm pointing out that on a lot of shots, the one in the above video included, that the ob will be overcut as that cueball is so high that it could not get a chance to hit it's true contact point. maybe to see it better, what do you guys think would happen in that video if the cueball happen to come down sooner? i'll tell you right now the ball would have been undercut at that same angle.

depending largely on the thickness of the hit, i would say that in general if the bottom of the cb is at a level above the center of the ob, you guys are right, all bets are off and you'd have to undercut somehow. but on a thicker hit, and with the bottom of the cb NOT above the center of the object ball, the theoretical cut angle will remain the same (see my previous posts as to why). so there is some weird equation incorporating thickness of hit and cb height to see if the ob will be overcut, but i would think on MANY MANY jump shots the criteria will not be met and the cut angle will remain the same with an airbirne cb.

and anyway, let's just assume you guys are right for the sake of argument. "you have to undercut the ob on a jump"??? by how much?? do you have to undercut more oh a higher jump, if so how much more?? etc? so even if you guys are right it's all dubious assertions at best.

 

[randyg]

on the other hand, if you don't shoot that hard, that the cueball hops thinner to cut it in. Try to hold the cue very lightly even on hard shots to reduce the throw effect or compensate by aiming thinner or applying the right amount of english.

"and you tighten your grip on your stroke you will enlarge the throw effect" HUH????? SPF=randyg

 

[jtompilot]

I agree Randy.

Who is the UBC. Is that a billiard school

 

[Patrick Johnson]

unless the cb gets to a certain height (one in which i have no way to tell you how high as it depends on thickness of the cut), the cut angle will be the same weather the cb is in the air or on the felt.

This simply is not true.

...on a lot of shots, the one in the above video included, that the ob will be overcut as that cueball is so high that it could not get a chance to hit it's true contact point.

What's a "true contact point"?

I'm not sure what you're saying for most of your post, so I'll just put this another way:

If you aim two cut shots exactly the same way (it doesn't matter what the cut angle is), but hit one of the shots so the CB is on the cloth when it hits the OB and hit the other shot so the CB is airborne when it hits the OB, the cut angle will be greater for the airborne shot.

...let's just assume you guys are right for the sake of argument. "you have to undercut the ob on a jump"??? by how much?? do you have to undercut more oh a higher jump, if so how much more?? etc? so even if you guys are right it's all dubious assertions at best.

No, it's not. The fact that a jumped CB creates a greater cut angle is a fact whether or not we know exactly how to aim it.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

enzo:
...the cb will pass that point that would have been struck if it were sliding on the table, yet the cb will strike that spot further back on itself-- so it will exactly cancel out.

Maybe this will help you visualize:

No matter where the CB contacts the OB (on the equator or above it), the point where they make contact will be on the line between their centers (anything else is impossible), and the cut angle will be the line through their centers at that moment (ignoring throw). If you agree that an airborne CB travels farther before hitting the OB, then you must agree that the line through the CB/OB centers changes and therefore the cut angle changes.

pj
chgo

P.S. You're correct that the CB will strike the OB "farther back on itself", but only half the distance that the CB's center has moved forward, not the entire distance as you imagine. You see this when you shoot any cut shot - at the moment of contact the CB's center is twice as far to the side of the OB's center as the contact point is (this is the basis of the "double offset" aiming system).

 

[Patrick Johnson]

you tighten your grip on your stroke you will enlarge the throw effect

Sorry, the "Beard effect" is an urban legend.

pj
chgo

 

[randyg]

I agree Randy.

Who is the UBC. Is that a billiard school

I'm not sure. I tried to google the title, no luck. Hope not...SPF=randyg

 

[dr_dave]

No matter where the CB contacts the OB (on the equator or above it), the point where they make contact will be on the line between their centers (anything else is impossible), and the cut angle will be the line through their centers at that moment (ignoring throw). If you agree that an airborne CB travels farther before hitting the OB, then you must agree that the line through the CB/OB centers changes and therefore the cut angle changes.

Excellent explanation!

Regards,
Dave