9 Ball vs 10 Ball

[KoolKat9Lives]

call shot slop return vs call shot miss & return

It only is that way if you pocket the called ball in an unintended pocket, or if you slop in another ball.

I gues there is some confusion about that rule.

Chris

Yes, there is. The SBE rules were the most "stringent" and allowed a missed called shot to be returned. This is the 2 way killer IMO.

I did not watch the HardTimes tourney, was this call shot? And in event of a slop make, the incomer can return it? I like this rule.

 

[Pushout]

Joe Tucker has been saying 10 Ball should replace 9 Ball for years now. I like what I've heard about 10 Ball and the rule changes over 9 Ball. It changes how much the break affects the game more than anything else, I would say. I haven't played it with the suggested rules yet but have a sneaking feeling I would prefer the SBE rules as opposed to the standard WPA rules.

 

[TATE]

I did not watch the HardTimes tourney, was this call shot? And in event of a slop make, the incomer can return it? I like this rule.

Yes, that's the way it was played. I would not like the other way.

There still could be some tweaking of the rules.

For example, I think they should state at the beginning of the tournament that every combination, bank, or carom must be called. My friend got ruled against on this one - he shot an obvious game winning 10 ball combo. When his opponent objected because he didn't call it, and the officials ruled against him - he ended up losing the match by 1 game. In my opinion, a game winning combination is as obvious a shot as you can get.

Chris

 

[peteypooldude]

pattern racking in 9b is much more effective,people like Corey and Mills just about perfected 9b,in 10b its harder to control the outcome after the break

 

[skip]

Not trying to change the though an I am not selling the magic rack or do I own one. But being a super fan of 9 an 10 ball this rack seem to speed up the game an gives each person an equal opportunity at the match. An as a watcher of the game on stream it sure speeds things up. Love all these great players but when it takes 3 to 5 minutes to rack if forces me the go watch HBO. I feel this racking system should be used in any televised event to keep viewership up. But the people at magic would have to come forward with financial support of course to make this happen. Again sometimes my mind just wonders. Skip

 

[hang-the-9]

Yes, that's the way it was played. I would not like the other way.

There still could be some tweaking of the rules.

For example, I think they should state at the beginning of the tournament that every combination, bank, or carom must be called. My friend got ruled against on this one - he shot an obvious game winning 10 ball combo. When his opponent objected because he didn't call it, and the officials ruled against him - he ended up losing the match by 1 game. In my opinion, a game winning combination is as obvious a shot as you can get.

Chris

I think technically your friend, if he did not call the pocket, was wrong. 90% of the players when playing called shot say nothing if the shot is obvious, but some can (and are correct to do so within the rules) insist that you call *any* shot. You may have an arguement about this if the player has not asked any other shot to be called and then complained about this one, but even then, if the other shots were striaght-in, the combo should have been called.

The way to avoid this is to just agree before the match that anything easy is assumed, any combos or banks are called. Now that I think about it, I play in an 8-ball league, and even though it's technically called shot, the only shot I really point out is the game winner, even if it's an inch from a pocket.

 

[sfleinen]

Rules clarification

Yes, that's the way it was played. I would not like the other way.

There still could be some tweaking of the rules.

For example, I think they should state at the beginning of the tournament that every combination, bank, or carom must be called. My friend got ruled against on this one - he shot an obvious game winning 10 ball combo. When his opponent objected because he didn't call it, and the officials ruled against him - he ended up losing the match by 1 game. In my opinion, a game winning combination is as obvious a shot as you can get.

Chris

Guys:

Let's clear a couple things up:

1. Purpose of "missed called shot gives incoming player the option" rule: to not reward the player that just shot / punish the incoming player by allowing an unintentional safety. This rule forces you to COMMIT to one or the other. "If you decide to take the slice of cake off the shelf in the buffet and taste it, you must commit to putting it on your tray and buying it. Don't put it back on the shelf for the poor sop behind you to 'inherit' it."

2. Purpose of the "called safety results in a pocketed ball gives the incoming player the option" rule: to prevent those situations where the shooter just wants to get rid of an easy ball (get it completely off the table) because he/she doesn't want to deal with the position of the rest of the balls (e.g. clusters, what-not). "I'll just call safety, shoot this duck off the table, and let my opponent deal with the rest of the nastiness." Giving the opponent the option gets rid of this silliness. It forces you to shoot, or play a better safety than a simple stop-shot pocketed ball (which gets rid of that easy ball) that instantly results in a snooker for the opponent because of the position of the rest of the balls.

3. Purpose of calling *every* bank, carom, or combination shot, no matter how "obvious": because these are the written rules, and as stated in the written rules, "no bank, carom, or combination shot is unquestionably obvious." See WPA General Rule 1.6 and 10-ball rule 9.5:

http://wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_tournament#1.6
http://wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_10ball#9.5

"For a called shot to count, the referee must be satisfied that the intended shot was made, so if there is any chance of confusion, e.g. with bank, combination and similar shots, the shooter should indicate the ball and pocket. If the referee or opponent is unsure of the shot to be played, he may ask for a call."

Is it really that inconvenient to say, "10-ball, corner pocket"? Or, if you don't like your speaking voice in public, to simply point to the object ball you intend to go into the pocket, and then move your cue over and point to the pocket? (Efren, as an example, does this when playing call shot games.)

And, not to you personally, Chris, but rather a general notice to the public reading this:

Speaking of controversy with call-shot rules in 10-ball, let's recall that 10-ball, as a game, was sifted from the ashes of time (10-ball is a very OLD game) as an alternative to 9-ball as it's played today, precisely BECAUSE of folks getting sick of the way 9-ball is played with Texas Express rules.

If you don't like call-shot rules, then don't play 10-ball. Play 9-ball instead. It's that simple. Why "must" you play 10-ball, "and" play with Texas Express rules? What's the point in that? What "benefit" is playing 10-ball like that doing for you? What, let me guess, "that one extra ball makes the game s-o-o-o much more challenging?" Gimme a break. For those that think 10-ball played with Texas Express rules is "proper," I ask why?? Because 10-ball is a rotation game? And rotation means that Texas Express is bolted to its hip?

I believe that there should be a *choice* of rotation games, with separate defined rules of how that particular rotation game is played. The player should have a choice -- play 9-ball (Texas Express), or play 10-ball (call shot). The game determines the rules, by virtue of the world-standard recognized rules. Not this "well, you shoot the balls in rotation, so that 'automatically means' that Texas Express rules apply" crap.

And concerning tournaments and "desire to appeal to the crowd" (which methinks Mark Griffin and Jay Helfert described a need for). It's easy -- just run a 9-ball tournament. We're not going to try to resuscitate the game of straight pool by applying Texas Express rules to it, right? Leave the game alone. Instead, if there's a need to televise the event, just play the game that is "conducive" to being televised. No need to make the house fit the door.

EDIT: by the way, I think some of the call-shot detractors will be surprised at how the general public might perceive watching a call-shot game. The uneducated general public is familiar with call-shot by virtue of 8-ball. Explain to them (via the commentators -- that's their job) that the game of 10-ball is a rotation game, that rotation means the balls are shot at in rotation (sequentially), and that the intended pocketed ball must be called. When I explained to my rank-beginner-pool-playing girlfriend the differences between 9-ball and 10-ball (being careful not to "jade" her with my personal preferences for call-shot), I was surprised when she remarked how 10-ball, to her, seemed like a more professional game -- that she expected to see the pros playing this game on TV. Coming from a rank beginner, mind you!

Respectfully,
-Sean

 

[Ratta]

Guys:

Let's clear a couple things up:

1. Purpose of "missed called shot gives incoming player the option" rule: to not reward the player that just shot / punish the incoming player by allowing an unintentional safety. This rule forces you to COMMIT to one or the other. "If you decide to take the slice of cake off the shelf in the buffet and taste it, you must commit to putting it on your tray and buying it. Don't put it back on the shelf for the poor sop behind you to 'inherit' it."

2. Purpose of the "called safety results in a pocketed ball gives the incoming player the option" rule: to prevent those situations where the shooter just wants to get rid of an easy ball (get it completely off the table) because he/she doesn't want to deal with the position of the rest of the balls (e.g. clusters, what-not). "I'll just call safety, shoot this duck off the table, and let my opponent deal with the rest of the nastiness." Giving the opponent the option gets rid of this silliness. It forces you to shoot, or play a better safety than a simple stop-shot pocketed ball (which gets rid of that easy ball) that instantly results in a snooker for the opponent because of the position of the rest of the balls.

3. Purpose of calling *every* bank, carom, or combination shot, no matter how "obvious": because these are the written rules, and as stated in the written rules, "no bank, carom, or combination shot is unquestionably obvious." See WPA General Rule 1.6 and 10-ball rule 9.5:

http://wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_tournament#1.6
http://wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_10ball#9.5

"For a called shot to count, the referee must be satisfied that the intended shot was made, so if there is any chance of confusion, e.g. with bank, combination and similar shots, the shooter should indicate the ball and pocket. If the referee or opponent is unsure of the shot to be played, he may ask for a call."

Is it really that inconvenient to say, "10-ball, corner pocket"? Or, if you don't like your speaking voice in public, to simply point to the object ball you intend to go into the pocket, and then move your cue over and point to the pocket? (Efren, as an example, does this when playing call shot games.)

And, not to you personally, Chris, but rather a general notice to the public reading this:

Speaking of controversy with call-shot rules in 10-ball, let's recall that 10-ball, as a game, was sifted from the ashes of time (10-ball is a very OLD game) as an alternative to 9-ball as it's played today, precisely BECAUSE of folks getting sick of the way 9-ball is played with Texas Express rules.

If you don't like call-shot rules, then don't play 10-ball. Play 9-ball instead. It's that simple. Why "must" you play 10-ball, "and" play with Texas Express rules? What's the point in that? What "benefit" is playing 10-ball like that doing for you? What, let me guess, "that one extra ball makes the game s-o-o-o much more challenging?" Gimme a break. For those that think 10-ball played with Texas Express rules is "proper," I ask why?? Because 10-ball is a rotation game? And rotation means that Texas Express is bolted to its hip?

I believe that there should be a *choice* of rotation games, with separate defined rules of how that particular rotation game is played. The player should have a choice -- play 9-ball (Texas Express), or play 10-ball (call shot). The game determines the rules, by virtue of the world-standard recognized rules. Not this "well, you shoot the balls in rotation, so that 'automatically means' that Texas Express rules apply" crap.

And concerning tournaments and "desire to appeal to the crowd" (which methinks Mark Griffin and Jay Helfert described a need for). It's easy -- just run a 9-ball tournament. We're not going to try to resuscitate the game of straight pool by applying Texas Express rules to it, right? Leave the game alone. Instead, if there's a need to televise the event, just play the game that is "conducive" to being televised. No need to make the house fit the door.

EDIT: by the way, I think some of the call-shot detractors will be surprised at how the general public might perceive watching a call-shot game. The uneducated general public is familiar with call-shot by virtue of 8-ball. Explain to them (via the commentators -- that's their job) that the game of 10-ball is a rotation game, that rotation means the balls are shot at in rotation (sequentially), and that the intended pocketed ball must be called. When I explained to my rank-beginner-pool-playing girlfriend the differences between 9-ball and 10-ball (being careful not to "jade" her with my personal preferences for call-shot), I was surprised when she remarked how 10-ball, to her, seemed like a more professional game -- that she expected to see the pros playing this game on TV. Coming from a rank beginner, mind you!

Respectfully,
-Sean

Agree

And, without knowing your *baby* -greets to her...she seems to be an intelligent woman^^, lol!

lg
Ingo

 

[TATE]

Guys:

Let's clear a couple things up:

1. Purpose of "missed called shot gives incoming player the option" rule: to not reward the player that just shot / punish the incoming player by allowing an unintentional safety. This rule forces you to COMMIT to one or the other. "If you decide to take the slice of cake off the shelf in the buffet and taste it, you must commit to putting it on your tray and buying it. Don't put it back on the shelf for the poor sop behind you to 'inherit' it."

2. Purpose of the "called safety results in a pocketed ball gives the incoming player the option" rule: to prevent those situations where the shooter just wants to get rid of an easy ball (get it completely off the table) because he/she doesn't want to deal with the position of the rest of the balls (e.g. clusters, what-not). "I'll just call safety, shoot this duck off the table, and let my opponent deal with the rest of the nastiness." Giving the opponent the option gets rid of this silliness. It forces you to shoot, or play a better safety than a simple stop-shot pocketed ball (which gets rid of that easy ball) that instantly results in a snooker for the opponent because of the position of the rest of the balls.

3. Purpose of calling *every* bank, carom, or combination shot, no matter how "obvious": because these are the written rules, and as stated in the written rules, "no bank, carom, or combination shot is unquestionably obvious." See WPA General Rule 1.6 and 10-ball rule 9.5:

http://wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_tournament#1.6
http://wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_10ball#9.5

"For a called shot to count, the referee must be satisfied that the intended shot was made, so if there is any chance of confusion, e.g. with bank, combination and similar shots, the shooter should indicate the ball and pocket. If the referee or opponent is unsure of the shot to be played, he may ask for a call."

Is it really that inconvenient to say, "10-ball, corner pocket"? Or, if you don't like your speaking voice in public, to simply point to the object ball you intend to go into the pocket, and then move your cue over and point to the pocket? (Efren, as an example, does this when playing call shot games.)

And, not to you personally, Chris, but rather a general notice to the public reading this:

Speaking of controversy with call-shot rules in 10-ball, let's recall that 10-ball, as a game, was sifted from the ashes of time (10-ball is a very OLD game) as an alternative to 9-ball as it's played today, precisely BECAUSE of folks getting sick of the way 9-ball is played with Texas Express rules.

If you don't like call-shot rules, then don't play 10-ball. Play 9-ball instead. It's that simple. Why "must" you play 10-ball, "and" play with Texas Express rules? What's the point in that? What "benefit" is playing 10-ball like that doing for you? What, let me guess, "that one extra ball makes the game s-o-o-o much more challenging?" Gimme a break. For those that think 10-ball played with Texas Express rules is "proper," I ask why?? Because 10-ball is a rotation game? And rotation means that Texas Express is bolted to its hip?

I believe that there should be a *choice* of rotation games, with separate defined rules of how that particular rotation game is played. The player should have a choice -- play 9-ball (Texas Express), or play 10-ball (call shot). The game determines the rules, by virtue of the world-standard recognized rules. Not this "well, you shoot the balls in rotation, so that 'automatically means' that Texas Express rules apply" crap.

And concerning tournaments and "desire to appeal to the crowd" (which methinks Mark Griffin and Jay Helfert described a need for). It's easy -- just run a 9-ball tournament. We're not going to try to resuscitate the game of straight pool by applying Texas Express rules to it, right? Leave the game alone. Instead, if there's a need to televise the event, just play the game that is "conducive" to being televised. No need to make the house fit the door.

EDIT: by the way, I think some of the call-shot detractors will be surprised at how the general public might perceive watching a call-shot game. The uneducated general public is familiar with call-shot by virtue of 8-ball. Explain to them (via the commentators -- that's their job) that the game of 10-ball is a rotation game, that rotation means the balls are shot at in rotation (sequentially), and that the intended pocketed ball must be called. When I explained to my rank-beginner-pool-playing girlfriend the differences between 9-ball and 10-ball (being careful not to "jade" her with my personal preferences for call-shot), I was surprised when she remarked how 10-ball, to her, seemed like a more professional game -- that she expected to see the pros playing this game on TV. Coming from a rank beginner, mind you!

Respectfully,
-Sean

I liked the rules they used in the Mezz, it's just that they need to be made a little clearer at the start because they are "kind of" the WPA rules but not exact. Hopefully we will have a standardized version at some point, like we used to with Texas Express 9 ball.

Here's the WPA rule on called shots in 10 Ball:

9.5 Call Shots & Pocketing Balls
Whenever the shooter is attempting to pocket a ball (except the break) he is required to call shots, the intended ball and pocket must be indicated for each shot if they are not obvious. Details of the shot, such as cushions struck or other balls contacted or pocketed are irrelevant.

For a called shot to count, the referee must be satisfied that the intended shot was made, so if there is any chance of confusion, e.g. with bank, combination and similar shots, the shooter should indicate the ball and pocket. If the referee or opponent is unsure of the shot to be played, he may ask for a call.

The bottom sentence, I read as "if there is any chance of confusion" and "should". Assuming all players are reasonable, a straight in combo on the money ball is as obvious as it gets. In my opinion, the opponent was unreasonable and the referees should have allowed it as obvious.

Chris

 

[sfleinen]

Purpose of "pocketed ball during called safety results in option to incoming player"

The differences are subtle, but I like it a lot better. It takes a lot of the preventable rolls out of the game.

- 10 ball is a call shot game, just the ball and the pocket (doesn't matter how it gets there).

- If your opponent misses a called shot, but makes a legal hit and slops something in, you can make them shoot again.

- The 10 on the break doesn't count as a win. 10 spots up if slopped in.

- A power break is pretty much essential.

- Generally, it's easier to rack it tight with a decent rack.

- The extra ball on the table and generally fewer balls pocketed on the break make running out more difficult.

The one rule I would change in 10 ball is the called safety rule. The rule played in the tournament was, if you call a safety and pocket an unintended ball, your opponent can make you shoot again. To me that makes no sense at all.

I hope it eventually replaces 9 ball all together.
Chris

Chris:

Good list, but I wanted to address the item bolded above. I play on Tony Robles' Predator Open 10-ball Tour, and this is where the additions to the stock/standard WPA rules are coming from, mainly from the enthusiasm of the players that play in the Tony Robles' Predator event. In fact, the reason why these rule additions were embraced in this past SBE Open 10-ball Players Championship was precisely because of the success of these rules on the Tony Robles' Predator tour.

The purpose of the "pocketed ball on a called safety gives option to the incoming player" is to get rid of that silliness where the player wants to "get rid of a duck" but doesn't want to deal with the rest of the table for whatever reason (e.g. clusters, layout of the table, or even where the next object ball is located). So he/she just calls "safety" and pockets an easy duck with a stop-shot, leaving the opponent to deal with the rest of the table (perhaps that opponent now even having to deal with an instant lock-up safety that resulted from that stop-shot on that duck). This rule gets rid of that silliness, and encourages the player to either *deal* with the table layout (i.e. shoot to pocket that ball and get position), or else come up with a better safety that doesn't pocket a ball. It forces them to deal with the table. Now, an obvious outcome of that (desirable or undesirable, depending on what side of the fence you're on) is if you do call safety and *do* plan to hide both the object ball and the cue ball, but one of those balls ricochets around and knocks a ball into a pocket, yes, the opponent can make you shoot again -- just by virtue that a ball was unintentionally pocketed. Rationale: be more careful when you send balls ricocheting around the table during a called safety.

Hope this helps explain it,
-Sean

 

[TSW]

1. Purpose of "missed called shot gives incoming player the option" rule: to not reward the player that just shot / punish the incoming player by allowing an unintentional safety. This rule forces you to COMMIT to one or the other. "If you decide to take the slice of cake off the shelf in the buffet and taste it, you must commit to putting it on your tray and buying it. Don't put it back on the shelf for the poor sop behind you to 'inherit' it."

This is the "two-way shot" situation I was referring to (as opposed to calling two object balls, for example). I've seen 10-ball played with or without this rule, and I don't like giving the option to the incoming player. Sometimes the safety is unintentional, but oftentimes the shooter is playing to leave a hard shot if he misses. That's where a lot of the creativity of rotation games comes into play and it would be a shame to remove it.

Here's an example of an intentional "two-way shot." If the shooter calls the 10-ball and misses it, do you think the incoming player should have the option?

CueTable Help

 

[sfleinen]

This is the "two-way shot" situation I was referring to (as opposed to calling two object balls, for example). I've seen 10-ball played with or without this rule, and I don't like giving the option to the incoming player. Sometimes the safety is unintentional, but oftentimes the shooter is playing to leave a hard shot if he misses. That's where a lot of the creativity of rotation games comes into play and it would be a shame to remove it.

Here's an example of an intentional "two-way shot." If the shooter calls the 10-ball and misses it, do you think the incoming player should have the option?

CueTable Help

tsw_521:

Very nice example, but yes, I do believe the incoming player should have the option. Reason/rationale: if the rule is established ahead of time of the tournament, for the specific purpose of the incoming player not having to suffer the consequences of the previous shooter's mistake in not pocketing the ball, the shooter should have this in mind before even considering this shot. Know that you're going to get this shot back if you miss. So this really is an "all or nothing" scenario. Either commit to the safety, or commit to the shot to make it. "If you take the slice of cake off the shelf and you put your finger in the icing to taste it, you put the slice of cake on your buffet tray because you just bought it."

Yes, two-way shots can be beautiful. But the intent of the rule is 1.) not have the incoming player "pay" or suffer the consequences of the previous player's mistake, and 2.) to get players to commit to one or the other -- either make the shot, or make the safety. You can't have both -- and that's the rule's intent. In this case, bear down and make sure you pocket that ball. If it's too "iffy" -- don't even attempt it. Look for something else. This is a case of knowing the rules of the game before you engage. It is *very* unfortunate that it wasn't clear to your friend, and a heck of way to pay the price for not knowing the rule. I empathize with him.

-Sean

 

[TATE]

Chris:

Good list, but I wanted to address the item bolded above. I play on Tony Robles' Predator Open 10-ball Tour, and this is where the additions to the stock/standard WPA rules are coming from, mainly from the enthusiasm of the players that play in the Tony Robles' Predator event. In fact, the reason why these rule additions were embraced in this past SBE Open 10-ball Players Championship was precisely because of the success of these rules on the Tony Robles' Predator tour.

The purpose of the "pocketed ball on a called safety gives option to the incoming player" is to get rid of that silliness where the player wants to "get rid of a duck" but doesn't want to deal with the rest of the table for whatever reason (e.g. clusters, layout of the table, or even where the next object ball is located). So he/she just calls "safety" and pockets an easy duck with a stop-shot, leaving the opponent to deal with the rest of the table (perhaps that opponent now even having to deal with an instant lock-up safety that resulted from that stop-shot on that duck). This rule gets rid of that silliness, and encourages the player to either *deal* with the table layout (i.e. shoot to pocket that ball and get position), or else come up with a better safety that doesn't pocket a ball. It forces them to deal with the table. Now, an obvious outcome of that (desirable or undesirable, depending on what side of the fence you're on) is if you do call safety and *do* plan to hide both the object ball and the cue ball, but one of those balls ricochets around and knocks a ball into a pocket, yes, the opponent can make you shoot again -- just by virtue that a ball was unintentionally pocketed. Rationale: be more careful when you send balls ricocheting around the table during a called safety.

Hope this helps explain it,
-Sean

Oh, now I get it. OK - good rule.

Chris

 

[TATE]

This is the "two-way shot" situation I was referring to (as opposed to calling two object balls, for example). I've seen 10-ball played with or without this rule, and I don't like giving the option to the incoming player. Sometimes the safety is unintentional, but oftentimes the shooter is playing to leave a hard shot if he misses. That's where a lot of the creativity of rotation games comes into play and it would be a shame to remove it.

Here's an example of an intentional "two-way shot." If the shooter calls the 10-ball and misses it, do you think the incoming player should have the option?

CueTable Help

Under the rules we were playing at the Mezz, you would call the 10 ball and if you missed, your opponent would have to shoot from there (no option).

That's a good rule. You can't get rid of every roll - but we can minimize them and the rolls are just a part of the game.

Chris

 

[NewStroke]

Regarding missing. If your opponent gets BIH when they miss, is that the same rule as Sudden Death 7 Ball?

 

[TSW]

tsw_521:

Very nice example, but yes, I do believe the incoming player should have the option. Reason/rationale: if the rule is established ahead of time of the tournament, for the specific purpose of the incoming player not having to suffer the consequences of the previous shooter's mistake in not pocketing the ball, the shooter should have this in mind before even considering this shot. Know that you're going to get this shot back if you miss. So this really is an "all or nothing" scenario. Either commit to the safety, or commit to the shot to make it. "If you take the slice of cake off the shelf and you put your finger in the icing to taste it, you put the slice of cake on your buffet tray because you just bought it."

Yes, two-way shots can be beautiful. But the intent of the rule is 1.) not have the incoming player "pay" or suffer the consequences of the previous player's mistake, and 2.) to get players to commit to one or the other -- either make the shot, or make the safety. You can't have both -- and that's the rule's intent. In this case, bear down and make sure you pocket that ball. If it's too "iffy" -- don't even attempt it. Look for something else. This is a case of knowing the rules of the game before you engage. It is *very* unfortunate that it wasn't clear to your friend, and a heck of way to pay the price for not knowing the rule. I empathize with him.

-Sean

Sean,

I agree that if the rule is established in advance, the players should/would act accordingly with regard to shot selection. I think we would lose more than we would gain from such a rule, but others may disagree.

I think it's not a big issue because luck in these situations is uncommon. At the pro level, how often do you see:

1) the shooter miss an offensive shot, AND
2) leave a safety, AND
3) do so without considering that the cue ball/object ball could wind up in approximately that position if he missed?

I believe that all three of those things must occur for this shot to be considered "luck." At the pro level, these sorts of lucky shots do happen but they are unusual. There's much more luck involved in the break shot in 10-ball than you will ever see from miss/safe shots. And you're losing the creativity and beauty of intentional two-way shots if you ban them.

If you want to reduce luck, modify the break shot first. I think it's inconsistent to worry about this sort of luck while the break is still out there.

PS - it wasn't my friend who lost on the 10-ball combo; it was another poster's. On that rule I think we are in agreement. An "obvious shot" standard is not objective; I would prefer the rule that anything except a straight-in shot must be called. Everyone can agree ex ante on what is "straight-in" and what isn't.

 

[TSW]

Under the rules we were playing at the Mezz, you would call the 10 ball and if you missed, your opponent would have to shoot from there (no option).

That's a good rule. You can't get rid of every roll - but we can minimize them and the rolls are just a part of the game.

Chris

I prefer this rule. Glad to hear they were doing it this way at the Mezz.

 

[sfleinen]

Regarding missing. If your opponent gets BIH when they miss, is that the same rule as Sudden Death 7 Ball?

NewStroke:

When you say "miss" -- are you referring to "missing the object ball entirely" (i.e. scratch)? If so, yes, the opponent gets BIH -- pretty much a death sentence if the table has no problem areas / clusters and you're playing a good player.

If by "miss" you mean that the player made legal contact but just plain didn't pocket the intended object into the intended pocket, there's no BIH -- the incoming player looks at the table, and if he/she likes it, he/she takes over the table and shoots. If he/she doesn't like it, they motion to the previous shooter to shoot again.

-Sean

 

[NewStroke]

NewStroke:

When you say "miss" -- are you referring to "missing the object ball entirely" (i.e. scratch)? If so, yes, the opponent gets BIH -- pretty much a death sentence if the table has no problem areas / clusters and you're playing a good player.

If by "miss" you mean that the player made legal contact but just plain didn't pocket the intended object into the intended pocket, there's no BIH -- the incoming player looks at the table, and if he/she likes it, he/she takes over the table and shoots. If he/she doesn't like it, they motion to the previous shooter to shoot again.

-Sean

Got it, thanks.

 

[paksat]

What's the rule called where your opponent is shooting, and he misses his ball yet leaves you hanging stuck behind some balls... and you're allowed to make him shoot again.

Name?

I think this is essential, as it, with the rest of the rules in 10 ball, virtually eliminate most of the luck in pool.