English?

[3kushn]

Top and bottom spin does not change the Path of the CB on its way to the object ball. After contact with the OB the CB must take the tangent for some distance and that distance is determined by the speed of the CB.

With Pure Side Spin (contact on the equator) the CB may take a non linear path to the OB depending again on speed. After contact the CB still and must take the tangent for some distance before the Path changes.

I've always defined the tangent as the line perpendicular to the line determined by the contact point through the center of the 2 balls. I've just learned but still don't understand how to visualize this but the tangent is determined by the line of the Release Point.

High Low Side may be clearer terms but I think the effects described above is the reason English means Side spin and High or Low is not considered English.

 

[JoeyA]

I think that the pool term "English" should be abolished altogether but I know that will never happen. American pool players like to blame someone for their miscues.

We should start using the following terms:

FOLLOW

DRAW

LEFT SIDE SPIN

RIGHT SIDE SPIN

Don't forget to add in STUN and all of its variances.

 

[JB Cases]

Oh it's you, the stalker.



Are we going to go through another week with you on something?
Hu's statement was correct. Agree with it, or don't, but how about leaving the shit stirring out of it.

Why are you here again? Sorry but I am not the one who replied to the topic with a personal comment about the person who started the topic.

Why don't you apply your logic to Mr. Robin Hood the Hustler Hustler?

Again, I will defer to Victor Stein and Paul Rubino and what they write on page 257 of the Billiard Encyclopedia. Unless of course you can point to anyone on this forum who has studied the history of billiards more thoroughly than those two.

I certainly won't be accepting the word of an unknown person on a forum message board unless he can cite some other corroborating source that we all know and who also trumps Rubino and Stein.

 

[nathandumoulin]

I think that the pool term "English" should be abolished altogether but I know that will never happen. American pool players like to blame someone for their miscues.

We should start using the following terms:

FOLLOW

DRAW

LEFT SIDE SPIN

RIGHT SIDE SPIN

Don't forget to add in STUN and all of its variances.

Makes sense Joey.

I might add though, that I've actually always preferred the whole "inside/outside" terminology, as it puts the shot into a clear context. I mean, follow is always follow and draw is always draw, but left and right tend to mean different things depending on what direction the cut shot is.

 

[Masayoshi]

Makes sense Joey.

I might add though, that I've actually always preferred the whole "inside/outside" terminology, as it puts the shot into a clear context. I mean, follow is always follow and draw is always draw, but left and right tend to mean different things depending on what direction the cut shot is.

What if you're straight in?

 

[nathandumoulin]

What if you're straight in?

Then you'd have no reason whatsoever to put any side spin on the ball. If you're cheating the pocket to get an angle, then it's no longer straight

EDIT: There are cases where RIGHT/LEFT make more sense than INSIDE/OUTSIDE, but I'm just saying that I prefer the latter of the two in most cases.

 

[JB Cases]

I think that the pool term "English" should be abolished altogether but I know that will never happen. American pool players like to blame someone for their miscues.

We should start using the following terms:

FOLLOW

DRAW

LEFT SIDE SPIN

RIGHT SIDE SPIN

Don't forget to add in STUN and all of its variances.

I agree with you Joey. I think the term english being used for any spin is outdated.

I prefer high, low, left, right and combinations therof. That's what they are and is the simplest way to describe the hit on the ball. The actions produced are follow, draw, left spin, and right spin.

 

[ThePoliteSniper]

Efren Reyes also invented martian english.

 

[Thunderball]

What if you're straight in?

For me its follow or "top english". Leads to lots of racking,but damn its cool...like bunnies in the hole.

 

[JB Cases]

Top and bottom spin does not change the Path of the CB on its way to the object ball. After contact with the OB the CB must take the tangent for some distance and that distance is determined by the speed of the CB.

With Pure Side Spin (contact on the equator) the CB may take a non linear path to the OB depending again on speed. After contact the CB still and must take the tangent for some distance before the Path changes.

I've always defined the tangent as the line perpendicular to the line determined by the contact point through the center of the 2 balls. I've just learned but still don't understand how to visualize this but the tangent is determined by the line of the Release Point.

High Low Side may be clearer terms but I think the effects described above is the reason English means Side spin and High or Low is not considered English.

The instructor was not saying that the path to the object ball is changed. He was saying that the path away from the object ball does not change with 'english' and he was using english to mean only left or right.

In his video he says that he is dispelling the notion that English changes the path of the cueball. If a beginner, who is obviously the intended audience, has that idea then it's probably because they are thinking of "english" in the broad sense rather than the narrow sense.

To me english refers to any meaningful, lasting and visible spin, left, right, top, and bottom. If someone here can show me a video of themselves drawing the cueball 8-12 inches with an level cue and an unchalked tip then I will recant my position and agree that the term 'english' only applies to side spin. I might even recant it for 3-6inches.

Because it is my belief based on the reading I have done that it only became possible to execute major spin shots with tips that had lots of friction which chalk provided. Such shots did not become well known and practiced until Carr traveled about doing the shots for money and selling the chalk.

I can certainly see that a lot of you don't refer to it that way and so I can see where a BCA instructor would use the term to refer to only sidespin in his video.

However, I still contend that this is only telling half the tale. I find that a BCA instructor who makes a video should first explain what the tangent line is, THEN explain how the cue ball follows it and how the cue ball deviates from it. The video I watched is not at all how I would explain this concept to a beginner.

Said instructor has publicly chastised other people for teaching things that in his opinion might confuse beginners and yet in my opinion he goes out of his way to confuse beginners by introducing concepts in a half-assed manner.

I am sure though that this instructor did it with good intentions.

Another billiard scholar writes this in his online glossary of billiard terms:

English: term usually used to refer to sidespin applied to the cue ball, but can also be used to refer to any type of spin applied to the cue ball (e.g., with draw and follow shots). - Dr. Dave Alciatore

 

[Masayoshi]

Then you'd have no reason whatsoever to put any side spin on the ball. If you're cheating the pocket to get an angle, then it's no longer straight

EDIT: There are cases where RIGHT/LEFT make more sense than INSIDE/OUTSIDE, but I'm just saying that I prefer the latter of the two in most cases.

I was thinking more along the lines of being straight in and drawing back to a rail with left or right. It comes up fairly often in 9 ball.

 

[lfigueroa]

Again, I will defer to Victor Stein and Paul Rubino and what they write on page 257 of the Billiard Encyclopedia. Unless of course you can point to anyone on this forum who has studied the history of billiards more thoroughly than those two.

I certainly won't be accepting the word of an unknown person on a forum message board unless he can cite some other corroborating source that we all know and who also trumps Rubino and Stein.

Well, much of the original legwork on this subject was done by William (Bill/Professor) Hendricks, a St. Louis local, who published "William Hendricks' Official Standard History of Pool" in 1974.

Anywhos, in it he credits the imprisoned French infantry captain, saying, "Apparently Mingaud deduced that a leather tip on the cue would give it the additional gripping power needed to achieve the kind of spin he wanted." This would all have been about 1807.

In the essay by Cees Sprangers (included in TBE), we learn, among other things, that Mingaud's first name was Francois. And, we also learn from his obituary that Mingaud got the idea for the leather tip while he was injured, went into a tavern and playfully struck a billiard ball with one of his crutches -- which had a small piece of elastic clay at its tip.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Mike in MN]

I think you go reread the post he made. It starts out with telling me I am wrong to question an instructor's instruction and ask AZ's opinion. Then of course he calls into question my ability to discern the situation and quote properly.

Then he gets around to discussing the topic.

Does Hu NEED to be here in the thread I started? Could it survive and the topic, which is "what is english and does it affect the cue ball's path?", be discussed without his participation and comment's about me personally?

No he doesn't need to be here. He chose to post and chose to be antagonistic. As he said before, "that's the way I roll" in reference to his intention to be rude and harassing at ever increasing levels.

But as you can see I came back with a reference to "top english" as well as further references gleaned from the Billiard Encyclopedia.

Sorry I don't sit around and make up stories about my "playing days". I can name names and get within a month or so for all my stories. I don't make up vague references to busting hustlers and wax forth as if I have been the greatest undercover player the world has known. Hu does that. I don't normally care, when I start reading one of those stories I just skip it because I feel it's likely untrue and is boring anyway. I skip ahead to the moral just like I do with fairy tales.

If he wants to discuss things without getting personal then by all means. But if he wants to stalk me through the forum with personal attacks just as he did here in this thread then I will call a spade a spade.

My mom didn't teach me to not say anything if I didn't have anything nice to say. She taught me too stand up for myself. I won't be bullied or insulted by Hu without rebuttal. If that offends you then I'd suggest you stop reading when you see his name and mine in the same thread because you might see me going off if he decides to be obnoxious.

You can clearly see that I don't hold a grudge as I have posted in at least one other thread along with him and not said a word TO HIM or ABOUT HIM.

I'm not offended at all, John. It just looked like, from where I was sitting, that Hu was trying to needle you a little and get under your skin just for the sake of doing it. I thought his post was unnecessary at best.

 

[mullyman]

Hi John,

In addition, I believe that left & right spin can alter the path of the cueball also. Not changing the path from the actual contact point, that does not change, but because that contact point would be different than a center ball hit to make the same shot. The side spin throws the object ball slightly so you can hit it fuller or thinner than with center ball. Plus the path of the cueball is slightly different because of swerve or whatever you want to call it.

I hope some of this makes sense...it's late for me.

Dave

Actually no, the tangent line doesn't change one bit no matter where the two balls collide. The tanget line refers to the 90 degree line from the point of contact. If the contact point changes the cue ball still follows that particular tangent line from wherever it hit the object ball. If there's follow or draw on the cue ball it will still follow the tangent line. Where it decides to diverge from that line depends on how much or how little top or bottom is on it.
MULLY

 

[elvicash]

Apparently I will have to re-post this every 6-months or so in order for the question to be general knowledge.


It's never that simple.Here's the truth. The Swedish had a traditional dish of fermented fish called ," Ingglisch." It was eaten as a side dish to the entree.
For right- handed diners it was placed on the right side of the main plate
and for left- handed diners it was placed on the left side. Thus it became commonly referred to as right Ingglisch or left Ingglisch.

Swedish pool players picked this up and, as a joke at first, started calling their side spin either right Ingglisch or left Ingglisch. When Swedish pool players traveled to England for tournaments the English players heard this reference and, being as arrogant as they were, thought that the Swedes were saying ,"English."

Thereafter and to this day we now refer to sidespin as English. :

So you see, there can be no top Ingglisch or bottom Ingglisch.

I think the matter is now settled.

Winner - Right Here

 

[Dave Nelson]

I read somewhere that it is very difficult to impart overspin to the cue ball and that what little bit you do impart is rapidly dissapated by the friction between the cloth and the ball. This makes perfect sense to me.

Dave Nelson

 

[lfigueroa]

Good post Steve. :thumbup:

I'd always heard english references only side spin. The English used it, the Americans learned of it and subsequently coined the phrase.

When people say they put top or bottom english on the CB, which isn't uncommon, I just dismiss it as them not knowing.

Just thinking out loud now: according to Hendricks' HoP, referring to 1820, he says, "This early in the century, Phelan said, Americans used the mace almost exclusively. In England the cue has clearly superseded the mace."

A bit further on he says of 1830, "Mingaud demonstrates the marvels of 'English' in London..." I don't know if the conclusion is drawn elsewhere, but there could be a connection in that all the crazy spin Mingaud was demonstrating came from the cue vs mace thing, started in England 10 years before.

Lou Figueroa

 

[12squared]

Actually no, the tangent line doesn't change one bit no matter where the two balls collide. The tanget line refers to the 90 degree line from the point of contact. If the contact point changes the cue ball still follows that particular tangent line from wherever it hit the object ball. If there's follow or draw on the cue ball it will still follow the tangent line. Where it decides to diverge from that line depends on how much or how little top or bottom is on it.
MULLY

No argument here, I tried to say that in this way "Not changing the path from the actual contact point, that does not change" (meaning the tangent line is always the tangent line), just pointing out that the contact point would be different using side spin vs center ball because of the slight throw effect you get on the object ball when using left/right spin and the actual path is changed because of the swerve, changing what would be the 30 degree rule path. So the actual contact point is different and you can alter the path of the cueball slightly, not change the physics. This is used frequently in 1-pocket when you have to navigate around pockets and traffic that would naturally come into play. I use it very often.

But you are right, the tangent line is the tangent line, that's just not what I was talking about. So functionally, using side spin of various degrees and speed, you can alter the path of the cue ball by hitting a different spot on the object ball to get the same direction. I'm not very good at symantics, I like to keep things simple and discuss results whenever possible. That's what I tried to do.

Thanks for pointing out my lack of ability to clearly communicating a thought .

Dave

 

[elvicash]

The english is any spin vs left or right is a very old argument. I take the side that english is side spin.

On a more serious note we might need to get Dr. Dave and his wonder cam to answer the following question. Question : If we hit an object ball fairly thick and the CB has outside spin does the cue ball leave the OB on a 90 deg line from the point of contact and the throw only affects the line the OB takes moving away from the original point of collision.

This is what I think happens the CB has no option but to move off the OB at a true 90 deg tangent at least for a moment in time or more. Then the direction of the CB moves or is changed by the draw or follow english on the CB. However the line of the OB after the collision will be more than 90 deg from the collision point. The CB follows the tangent the OB line is manipulated. The angle between the exit collision CB tangent line and the OB path is going to be 90 deg with no side, > 90 deg with outside, it is very tough to throw the CB with inside but low spped and very thick angles this is possible as well.

After ther CB exits the collision there is another change in direction which is accomplished as an ellipitcal curve, as this curve occurs it takes power or spin rate out of the CB and when the spin is gone the CB will roll straight. The curve rate is directly porportioanl to the velocity of the linear motion vs the spin rate of the CB. Another key part of this is the humidity level in the environment, the drier the equipment the longer the spin can slide, the wetter or "DIRTIER" the cloth the quicker the spin takes effect. Dirty CB will also give up spin faster.

Side spin or english will primarily effect the path of the post collision CB when it hits a rail. Also side can add to ext velocitiy as a ball hits other balls, side spin can be converted to forward velcity as a ball hits either a ball or a rail.

 

[vasilios]

when english is used will the ball be potted or pocketed.I think just spinning the nine in is just wrong.

bill