English?
- Thread starter JB Cases
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Roger, If it was your post, then I suspect you posted some valid information, that someone either misunderstood, or was just being picky. The only think I can think is that, as this thread has pointed out, there are some who think of english as one thing, and the rest, who see it differently,.
Steve
Steve
Roger, we all do appreciate your professional contributions and
the contributions of other contributers and you deserve a greenie for them.
But, you gotta do something about your avatar. It looks like you
should have a pitchfork in your hand, an old farm wife beside you
and a farmhouse in the background. ( no disrespect intended):woot:
the contributions of other contributers and you deserve a greenie for them.
But, you gotta do something about your avatar. It looks like you
should have a pitchfork in your hand, an old farm wife beside you
and a farmhouse in the background. ( no disrespect intended):woot:
I love it (your post)! You're absolutely right. I've gotta do something about that goofy thing!
Zeb
Define what you mean by overspin and were you referring to what someone said here?
John..
At first I was in agreement with you. I thought any spin induced on the cue ball would fall under the definition of 'english'.
Which led me to my next question. What is the definition of 'english' as applied to billiards.
Here's what I've found.
Noun
english (uncountable)
(US) Spinning or rotary motion given to a ball around the vertical axis, as in billiards or bowling.
You can't hit it directly, but maybe if you give it some english.
5. also english
a. The spin given to a propelled ball by striking it on one side or releasing it with a sharp twist.
b. Bodily movement in an effort to influence the movement of a propelled object; body English.
☆ BILLIARDS, BOWLING, ETC. a spinning motion given to a ball, as by striking it on one side
4 : spin around the vertical axis deliberately imparted to a ball that is driven or rolled — compare draw, follow, body english
=============
There are four examples, where two seem to support your point of view, and two seem to support the view that spin around the vertical axis is the only thing that is termed 'english'.
I guess I can see it from both points of view, so I would have to first find out what someone else's definition was, prior to having a discussion with them. I'm really not at a point where I can say one definition is more correct than another, or that one is just plain incorrect.
Maybe I'm trying to please everyone...
At first I was in agreement with you. I thought any spin induced on the cue ball would fall under the definition of 'english'.
Which led me to my next question. What is the definition of 'english' as applied to billiards.
Here's what I've found.
Noun
english (uncountable)
(US) Spinning or rotary motion given to a ball around the vertical axis, as in billiards or bowling.
You can't hit it directly, but maybe if you give it some english.
5. also english
a. The spin given to a propelled ball by striking it on one side or releasing it with a sharp twist.
b. Bodily movement in an effort to influence the movement of a propelled object; body English.
☆ BILLIARDS, BOWLING, ETC. a spinning motion given to a ball, as by striking it on one side
4 : spin around the vertical axis deliberately imparted to a ball that is driven or rolled — compare draw, follow, body english
=============
There are four examples, where two seem to support your point of view, and two seem to support the view that spin around the vertical axis is the only thing that is termed 'english'.
I guess I can see it from both points of view, so I would have to first find out what someone else's definition was, prior to having a discussion with them. I'm really not at a point where I can say one definition is more correct than another, or that one is just plain incorrect.
Maybe I'm trying to please everyone...
Dave may have been referring to this thread, many posts by Dr. Dave, Mike Page, Bob Jewett and even PJ chimed in.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=151145&highlight=overspin
FYI, explanations and video demonstrations of "overspin" can be found here:
Here's the definition in my online glossary:
over-spin: topspin more than the natural roll amount, causing the cue ball to accelerate forward.
Regards,
Dave
FWIW, I agree with you. Whether or not the common usage among pool players has limited the word "english" to side spin, to me it's very obvious that the etymology of the word was pinned on the fact that the first people that Americans associated spin induced on the cue ball by the tip were English. There really isn't a logical reason why this would be limited to side spin.
My ears do not cringe if I hear "draw english" or "follow english." Similarly, if someone says "low, left-hand english," there's no issue. Clearly, we're talking about the spin around the center of the cueball.
Fred <~~~ would rather use the word "juice"
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I heard a pro golfer on tv the other day use the term putting "english" on the ball but for the life of me I could not find it it any golf terminology glossary.
Maybe he plays pool as well
Likewise, when Rajon Rondo tossed the high reverse layup against the glass in Game 5, the commentator said that he used the "right amount of english." Any European basketball player who doesn't shoot pool must have been a bit corn fused.
Fred
For that matter, whats wrong with just calling it plain ol "spin"?
Eric >left spin, right spin, reverse follow spin....
After reading about 3 pages of this thread:
1) I do agree with this instructor about referring to left/right only as english.
2) I do not agree with him as far as english not effecting the path of the cue ball, in some cases.
There are many instructors who teach people about english. Some refer to it as strictly hitting left/right of the center. Some instructors call draw or follow, using english. It's just up to the particular instructor.
There are also books that refer to the use of english on the cue ball. Some refer to draw and follow as using english, some say that just sidespin, left/right, is true english.
We could probably debate this until the end of time, I feel that as long as you understand what the instructor or book is trying to teach, then you are good to go.
My thoughts: I don't refer to top/bottom as english. I also don't think top should be called follow or bottom should be called draw. For example: your shot is a little of angle to the far corner pocket. The object ball is about 6 ft. from the cue ball. Your next shot is a ball on the end rail so you don't want the cue ball to travel far after making the first ball. This table has been known to roll off on slow rolling shots. By hitting the cue ball below center you can hit the cue ball a little faster so it does not roll off, the backspin will turn into a slight skid just before contact allowing you to make the ball and still hold up the cue ball for position. So, in this shot you hit below center, some people call it draw, but you did not actually draw the cue ball, it was more of a stun.
Just my .02
So, I call left/right of center, english. I call low and high, just top/bottom.
Good thoughts, Chris, but I think it's time I clarified something for everyone since I am pretty sure it is my video that is being "reviewed" in this thread.
Without going back and examining the video again I think I can safely say that my message was that english (in my own preferred usage) refers only to side spin on a ball (doesn't have to be the cue ball), and that side spin is not used to change the path that the spinning ball takes as it comes off of another ball, but is primarily used to change the angle that it comes off of a cushion.
The reason for this is because there is not enough friction between two round, smooth objects such as pool balls to appreciably affect their angle of departure after colliding (divergence off of the tangent line). But that becomes a different story when a side spinning ball contacts a cushion because there is a greater friction factor when cloth is brought into the act.
I also believe that side spin on a ball does not have an appreciable effect on the path that it takes prior to hitting another ball or a cushion, unless said ball is also skidding or back spinning at the same time. If the ball is in a natural roll, any side spin it has on it has practically no effect on its direction of travel.
Thank you for your input. :smile:
Roger
Striking the cueball left and right of center are English. Low is draw (initially). High is follow. Side spin DOES effect the tangent line, but only on some shots and only by a couple of degrees. That's not really enough to notice until your ability is such that you don't have to ask advice on this forum. When the cue ball strikes an object ball a glancing blow it follows the tangent line (approximately 90 degrees from the object balls path). It will follow this tangent line until any forward or rearward rotation (follow or draw) causes it to diverge from the tangent line. Regardless of speed, it will initially start following the tangent line. That path may change quicker than you can see, but said BCA instructor is correct.
So it's another word for follow?
Over-spin occurs during a follow shot, but only soon after the CB hits the OB. As soon as roll develops (which occurs sooner with slower follow shots), there is no longer any over-spin.
Regards,
Dave
why the thread starter was garbage to begin with
Roger,
Often when giving instruction as you did in your videos the first thing we have to do is clarify how a term is used in the niche we are discussing or what we mean by a term. You did that according to John's own thread starter.
Now you have defined "english" for your purposes to mean side spin. It doesn't matter at this point if the watcher normally uses "english" to refer to a miscue or the powder he puts on his hands, you have defined "english" to mean side spin in your videos.
I'm in the camp that splits hairs a little and says that sidespin can affect the path slightly. I'm thinking about the dull colored balls sometimes found on bar tables and when the balls are dirty and wet as an extreme case. However the accepted pool "truth" is that side spin doesn't affect the path of the cue ball off of the object ball and those of us that disagree I think do all agree that the effect is rarely significant. This doesn't really matter because John agrees with you later in the same post:
John's contention is that draw and follow have to be english also because they require chalk:
Continuing with John's logic jump shots and masse shots are also english because they require chalk to execute properly also. Of course in John's final post he acknowledges he is wrong about the proper usage of english but maintains that he should be right anyway!
John admits his attack was unwarranted as was plain in his first post when he admitted he knew how the video was using the word "english." Not that he needed it but Roger or whomever was attacked is vindicated.
Hu
Roger,
Often when giving instruction as you did in your videos the first thing we have to do is clarify how a term is used in the niche we are discussing or what we mean by a term. You did that according to John's own thread starter.
Now you have defined "english" for your purposes to mean side spin. It doesn't matter at this point if the watcher normally uses "english" to refer to a miscue or the powder he puts on his hands, you have defined "english" to mean side spin in your videos.
I'm in the camp that splits hairs a little and says that sidespin can affect the path slightly. I'm thinking about the dull colored balls sometimes found on bar tables and when the balls are dirty and wet as an extreme case. However the accepted pool "truth" is that side spin doesn't affect the path of the cue ball off of the object ball and those of us that disagree I think do all agree that the effect is rarely significant. This doesn't really matter because John agrees with you later in the same post:
John's contention is that draw and follow have to be english also because they require chalk:
Continuing with John's logic jump shots and masse shots are also english because they require chalk to execute properly also. Of course in John's final post he acknowledges he is wrong about the proper usage of english but maintains that he should be right anyway!
John admits his attack was unwarranted as was plain in his first post when he admitted he knew how the video was using the word "english." Not that he needed it but Roger or whomever was attacked is vindicated.
Hu
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