Better, topic (Veneers)

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Michael Webb

Michael Webb

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I hear this term all the time and usually from non Cue makers.
Mitered veneers are better, and When I ask why, they have no answer.

Anyone who does mitered veneers can admit, everytime you glue them together, you don't know exactly what they look like til the product is in a cue. Maybe the angle is off a bit, maybe a piece of dirt or dust got in the channel. Maybe whatever?????????????????

The would be opinions also say that overlapped veneers are out dated, When I ask why? They just say mitered is better, Cop out answers don't really work for me.
So I say, color by color, row by row, insuring that each color is flush cut and prepped to get ready for the next row or color, That just sounds terrible, If you follow each step and don't skip, you know exactly what you will get.
Then when they are speechless and can't give a logical, mature answer, They say, WHATEVER.

I do both above methods and can honestly ask the question?

Is there really better, or Better for the individual. If it's clean and looks, and plays good, WHAT'S THE PROBLEM. If you reply to this thread, Please do not use time as a factor, I don't care about what time it is to build a quality product. I don't work on an assembly line and get paid extra for piece work.
 
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Michael Webb said:
I hear this term all the time and usually from non Cue makers.
Mitered veneers are better, and When I ask why, they have no answer.

Anyone who does mitered veneers can admit, everytime you glue them together, you don't know exactly what they look like til the product is in a cue. Maybe the angle is off a bit, maybe a piece of dirt or dust got in the channel. Maybe whatever?????????????????

The would be opinions also say that overlapped veneers are out dated, When I ask why? They just say mitered is better, Cop out answers don't really work for me.
So I say, color by color, row by row, insuring that each color is flush cut and prepped to get ready for the next row or color, That just sounds terrible, If you follow each step and don't skip, you know exactly what you will get.
Then when they are speachless and can't give a logical, mature answer, They say, WHATEVER.

I do both above methods and can honestly ask the question?

Is there really better, or Better for the individual. If it's clean and looks, and plays good, WHAT'S THE PROBLEM.
Click to expand...

What you say is 100% true Mike. In fact if we were speaking strictly from a strength perspective the overlapped or sometimes called "boxed" veneers would have to be at least a little bit stronger than the mitered ones, not that it would make the slightest difference in the hit of the cue. The main factor is what the buyer wants to see and that would be the mitered ones in most cases. This is only because people have been educated on what good miters look like and have gotten to the point that they demand good miters for the big bucks. Another reason why people don't appreciate the overlapped veneers is because Prather does it this way. Again, nothing at all wrong with Prather's workmanship or the techniques, it's just that people buying a custom cue want the cue made wholly by the cuemaker and tend to look down on cuemakers using pre-made parts. That in my mind is the only problems with them. I've done them both ways and even used some Prather forearms when I was first learning cuemaking. Dan Prather actually showed me how to make the forearms using his overlapping method and I made several cues using this method myself.
 
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cuesmith said:
What you say is 100% true Mike. In fact if we were speaking strictly from a strength perspective the overlapped or sometimes called "boxed" veneers would have to be at least a little bit stronger than the mitered ones, not that it would make the slightest difference in the hit of the cue. The main factor is what the buyer wants to see and that would be the mitered ones in most cases, only because people have been educated on what good miters look like and have gotten to the point that they demand good miters for the big bucks. Another reason why people don't appreciate the overlapped veneers is because Prather does it this way. Again, nothing at all wrong with Prather's workmanship or the techniques, it's just that people buying a custom cue want the cue made wholly by the cuemaker and tend to look down on cuemakers using pre-made parts. That in my mind is the only problems with them.
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All true Sherm:

overlapped
IMG_1006.jpg

image11.jpg


Mitered but I still never know what the final product is:
image12.jpg

CC02.jpg
 
Just an observation from the peanut gallery, but if the workmanship is such that there are visible glue lines, a mitered veneer will look symetrical while an overlapped veneer will not.

Dave
 
How about the thickness of the veneers added to the equation. What role does it play if any? Can the thickness play a visible role in the final product is all techniques were done equal?
 
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DaveK said:
Just an observation from the peanut gallery, but if the workmanship is such that there are visible glue lines, a mitered veneer will look symetrical while an overlapped veneer will not.

Dave
Click to expand...

Does symetry really matter as long as you can make it look good?
 
I personally prefer the overlapped veneers. If symmetry is an issue, they can be alternated side to side like a weave to acheive symmetry. But for strength & assurance reasons already posted, I prefer overlapped. And by golly i'm a veneer expert......lol
 
Michael Webb said:
How about the thickness of the veneers added to the equation. What role does it play if any?
Click to expand...

I don't think thickness matters as long as you give the customer what they want. but I know, to my experience, it doesn't matter ....... the hardest things is to make sure that the glue line doesn't show as much...... such as prathers blank as long as the over lapping veneers are installed the same on all points...isn't that semitri also? I guess people just relate that to prather..... so if someone does overlapping most people will think prathers work not yours....

And I guess that's what people want....everything being your work..... that's what they pay for..... but then again how about titlist blanks.......those aren't yours even if the final product is..... why is that accepted more than prathers ? and there are titlist blanks that have gaps on the cuts but still accepted.... weird....
 
Veneers

I have done both. Collectors drove me to mitered. I think overlap is easier to do, at least more predictable. One of the first things I look at when viewing another cue makers work, is the veneer line. If he can pull off light colored veneers with a seamless mitre veneer. Then I consider his veneer work first class. Is one better than the other, I don't think so. Is one harder than the other, I would have to say yes.
 
I'll also add that well executed overlap veneers do not show the line, just as well executed miters have no line. So long as it's done well, I don't think it matters how it was acheived.
 
Michael Webb said:
How about the thickness of the veneers added to the equation. What role does it play if any?
Click to expand...

I was just reading these comments and that was going to be my comment and then I came upon this last post. May I start off with a question, being: what's the argument over V cut points and flat bottomed, inlaid points. Some just like the looks of one more than the other. The same with mitered. With the use of thin veneers it is harder to discern if the veneers are mitered or lapped. With thicker veneers the method is more visible. I, myself like mitered veneers as I feel they look much more concentric with what ever glue line there happens to be, running straight up the middle. Sometimes lapped veneers have to be used such as when only one veneer is used as an accent. I used to worry how the veneer stacks would look like after completion as they were buried until the final pass but there are techniques that can be used that alleviates these fears. I know what my final veneers will look like before they are ever installed.

DSC_0002-12.jpg


Dick
 
Piercyexclusive said:
I don't think thickness matters as long as you give the customer what they want. but I know, to my experience, it doesn't matter ....... the hardest things is to make sure that the glue line doesn't show as much...... such as prathers blank as long as the over lapping veneers are installed the same on all points...isn't that semitri also? I guess people just relate that to prather..... so if someone does overlapping most people will think prathers work not yours....

And I guess that's what people want....everything being your work..... that's what they pay for..... but then again how about titlist blanks.......those aren't yours even if the final product is..... why is that accepted more than prathers ? and there are titlist blanks that have gaps on the cuts but still accepted.... weird....
Click to expand...

Hi Marshall
Thank you, Size does in fact play a role though, Thinner veneers don't show glue lines as much just because they are thinner. Most people buying and converting old Titlist, do it more for the History than anything else.
 
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qbilder said:
I personally prefer the overlapped veneers. If symmetry is an issue, they can be alternated side to side like a weave to acheive symmetry. But for strength & assurance reasons already posted, I prefer overlapped. And by golly i'm a veneer expert......lol
Click to expand...


Your the best. :grin:
 
cutter said:
I have done both. Collectors drove me to mitered. I think overlap is easier to do, at least more predictable. One of the first things I look at when viewing another cue makers work, is the veneer line. If he can pull off light colored veneers with a seamless mitre veneer. Then I consider his veneer work first class. Is one better than the other, I don't think so. Is one harder than the other, I would have to say yes.
Click to expand...

Thank you Steve
 
rhncue said:
I was just reading these comments and that was going to be my comment and then I came upon this last post. May I start off with a question, being: what's the argument over V cut points and flat bottomed, inlaid points. Some just like the looks of one more than the other. The same with mitered. With the use of thin veneers it is harder to discern if the veneers are mitered or lapped. With thicker veneers the method is more visible. I, myself like mitered veneers as I feel they look much more concentric with what ever glue line there happens to be, running straight up the middle. Sometimes lapped veneers have to be used such as when only one veneer is used as an accent. I used to worry how the veneer stacks would look like after completion as they were buried until the final pass but there are techniques that can be used that alleviates these fears. I know what my final veneers will look like before they are ever installed.

DSC_0002-12.jpg


Dick
Click to expand...

Thank you Dick
 
After reading these posts, more than once for many of them and after some thought, I have another question. What would be the reasons that some builders seem to feel that the overlapped technique is a stronger method than the mitered method?

Dick
 
rhncue said:
After reading these posts, more than once for many of them and after some thought, I have another question. What would be the reasons that some builders seem to feel that the overlapped technique is a stronger method than the mitered method?

Dick
Click to expand...

Only that I would think there would be slightly more gluing surfaces with the overlap method. The difference would be like raising the ocean level by pissing into it, very insignificant and the mitered, when done right do look better.
 
rhncue said:
After reading these posts, more than once for many of them and after some thought, I have another question. What would be the reasons that some builders seem to feel that the overlapped technique is a stronger method than the mitered method?

Dick
Click to expand...

I consider them both to have their own disciplines and respect them equally.
 
I've been taught to admire a cue from arm's length, as you would with a painting/art. There are some people that look at the Mona Lisa and complain about seeing brush strokes. Same with stacked veneers

I believe mitered veneers are traditional and add another degree of difficulty. Tradition being the most important factor. If Spain or Gus would have stacked veneers, we'd all look down on mitered ones.
 
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