Restructuring Pool on a National Level

S

Snooker's RI

House Pro
Silver Member
This is a continuation of the thread posted on the Tournament Board named Snookers Providence RI - 9-Ball - $5000.00 Guaranteed First Place

The last page on that thread is enough to catch up


OK, now the solution

No more handicap tournaments, only player class tournaments. The incentive to get better will be in what I call a “Kick Up” program to make prize money increase in the higher levels. This program will need a restructuring of the whole tournament process and an alliance between tours at all levels. Without getting into all the details the way it works is $1.00 per player is kicked up to each class above (Player classes: Pros; Open; A; B; and C). So the Pros Fund will receive $1.00 per player from every tournament held in the entire country. Open thru B Fund will receive $1.00 per player from each tournament below them for each region. Many more detail about the program need to be worked out but that is a quick explanation how it will work.

Now “C” players can play in their tournaments but the prize money will be cut because $4.00 per player is removed for each one of the classes above them. Want the higher prize money? Get better and move to the next class.
 
So you hold a 20.00 entry fee c class tourney and 20% gets cut from the prize fund for that tourney to be added to another tourney the c player isn't playing in?

I did not follow or read the other thread yet. Just looking to clarify this post.
 
As a former pool room owner and player, not only would I not do this, but I don't think my players would play in something like this. In the final analysis, you have to show every person in an analysis what is in it for them. I can see no reason that a C player would want someone to chop $4 from a pot for any reason. How does it benefit him? The theory that if you want to make more get better is ludicrous for many, many reasons.

You can't solve a "global" problem like this on a local level. Yes in theory it sounds wonderful. But in the end you overlook a couple of little things....power and greed. Just take a stroll down memory lane and all the goings on in the pro world over the last 20 years.

Bob
 
Ray once again the tournament you put on was great I just need to keep saying that.

BUT....

Open players have there tournaments, they have there big money added events. The money being added from the lower players basically the consumers of billiard products. The lower player out number the open and A players by a wide margin. We go to pool halls, eat the food, drink the beer, we buy the products and the cues and pay admission to events.

So the Open and A player are getting theres no ifs ands or buts about it. I dont see any big money added B tournaments, or C tournaments, or D tournaments. But you see every week a money added event won by a pro, open or A player.

So Handi Caps are what they are there not to make it so its slightly harder for an A or Open player to win. A TRUE handi cap tournament should be structured so anyone can win. I have seen tours say there Handi Capped and the same people win them week after week after week. That tells me its not handi capped correctly.

A TRUE handi capped tournament should have different winners almost every week. You shouldnt see the same players week in and week out winning it. Thats not a handi cap period.

I hate having these discussions hahaha becuase they make me sounds like I dont care or just want lower players to win.

The point is that everyone should have a chance to win. Not a slim chance not a one and twenty chance but and EVEN chance.

I dont have the time, money or resources to practice to be an A or Open player. I dont even know if I did have all of it that I have the talent to be in the class. I give great respect to players who have put in there time and have the talent to successed. BUT... not everyone does AND there are plenty of OPEN tournaments with LOTS of added money in them.

David
 
And why in gods green earth would I want to give money to the players above me and just exactly who are they anyway,

The lower players money ends up at the top anyway, how many c players win a turny, most of us guys in the b/c range know we win never win a turny offering lower level entries to us sometimes is the difference between playing or not

IMHO most b/c players will never reach A and pro level no matter how hard they practice, at the end of the day natural ability coupled with the practice is what separates the top 2 tiers

Just the fact we can rub elbows with pro players for a minimal cost is what the attraction is for the lower levels



onestroke
 
Dave in Boston said:
Ray once again the tournament you put on was great I just need to keep saying that.

BUT....(some snipage here....)

So the Open and A player are getting theres no ifs ands or buts about it. I dont see any big money added B tournaments, or C tournaments, or D tournaments. But you see every week a money added event won by a pro, open or A player.
Click to expand...
Dave in Boston said:
Just to add a little on this....if you did have a $10,000 added C tournament....how many A and B players would kill someone to play in it? Now all of a sudden they would suck.....

Bob
Click to expand...
 
I like the idea of no handicap but instead a tiered entrance fee. Players play even but b, c players basically get odds on the money.

Only as an example:
Open player pays 75
A pays 60
b 40
C 30
 
OK To start at the top with Jersey - We had $5000.00 First Place Tourny but you had to qualify to be entered - C players had to play C players in the qualifiers and had to finish either First, Second or Third to make it in, entry fee was $20.00 - The Main event was handicapped A's race to 8 , B's to 7, C's to 6 - The feedback on why we couldn't get more C's in the qualifiers was the handicap wasn't enough - 16th place in the Main Event paid $100.00
 
Tournament results were submitted yesterday - Don't know why it hasn't been posted but here they are

1st $5000.00 Stevie Roy
2nd $1000.00 Mhet Vergara
3rd $720.00 Billy Lanna
4th $400.00 Brent Boemmels
5th 6th $250.00 Ivaylo Petrov Choneyi Tenzin
7th 8th $200.00 Randy Labonte Joe Marrero
9th 12th $150.00 Jarrod Clowery Bob Busa Rich Senna Liz Taylor
13th 16th $100.00 Marcos Cesco Chris Leal Brian Chase Van Sy
 
Doitforthegame

Hi Bob,

Your question about what is in it for the C player doesn't reflect your AZ forum name.

The main goal here is to improve the game of pool not to help the player that sits on the couch all week playing WII and then beats a hard working pool player on the weekend because of a crazy spot. If the lower ranked player doesn't win give them a bigger spot.

The players that will benefit the most by this would be the Pros. The Pros are trying to reorganized themselves right now. I talked to Mika, Shane, Rodney and a few others about what they are doing and proposed the idea. It was a brief conversation and they are just working on themselves right now but they did listen. They would have to go to Billiard Clubs to get them on board. In doing so they offer something like exhibitions for free on a consistent basis. Helps the room owner that usually pays $1000+ for the show. It would give the lower ranked players a chance to get to know the Pros up close on a regular basis and add some enthusiasm to their game. Now the $4.00 that they "Kick Up" doesn't sound so bad.

What about the $40.00 membership fees players are paying to tour promoters, that equals 10 tournament "Kick Up" fees

Does the idea sound any better?
 
The original idea is completely unenforceable. Every tournament in the country?? No way.

But keep thinking.
 
One Stroke

C Players would only play players in their own class so they will win tournaments - Would you pay $4.00 to hang out with whatever touring pro came to town - Maybe learn a little more about the game or just feel like you are part of something bigger in the game.

I don't know what area you are from but most regional tours make you pay a membership fee to play in the events.

How about the room owners waive the greens fees if Shane Van Boening or any other to ranked player came in for a night
 
Snooker's RI said:
Doitforthegame

Hi Bob,

Your question about what is in it for the C player doesn't reflect your AZ forum name.

The main goal here is to improve the game of pool not to help the player that sits on the couch all week playing WII and then beats a hard working pool player on the weekend because of a crazy spot. If the lower ranked player doesn't win give them a bigger spot.

The players that will benefit the most by this would be the Pros. The Pros are trying to reorganized themselves right now. I talked to Mika, Shane, Rodney and a few others about what they are doing and proposed the idea. It was a brief conversation and they are just working on themselves right now but they did listen. They would have to go to Billiard Clubs to get them on board. In doing so they offer something like exhibitions for free on a consistent basis. Helps the room owner that usually pays $1000+ for the show. It would give the lower ranked players a chance to get to know the Pros up close on a regular basis and add some enthusiasm to their game. Now the $4.00 that they "Kick Up" doesn't sound so bad.

What about the $40.00 membership fees players are paying to tour promoters, that equals 10 tournament "Kick Up" fees

Does the idea sound any better?
Click to expand...

Hi Ray-

HA-ha! I agree- I'm old and crotchety now. My unfinished book is "Do It For The Money"!

I'm entering your next tournament. (that will send fear down the spines of all those players you had!) Frankly, I could care less about some national "pro". They can solve their own problems. What I do care about is a room like Snookers that is putting itself out there and doing something new. If we want the "good old days", particularly like we had it in the 90's, we need to get people playing events again. Then when people see how the tourneys are doing, maybe it will get people invest in new rooms. Then maybe we can grow pool again.

I think the idea of a sliding scale for entries is the way to go. Let the people with the best chance to win pay the most. Like an earlier post said, I would play in an event like this for the chance to play you, or Joe, or Zuglan, or the like. I would enter it and "do if for the game".

Sometimes I think we didn't do anyone any favors when we had the AAP Tour- Open-B-C and D Divisions. Maybe we would have been better off stepping the entry fee and having everyone play in one big tournament.

One final thing, I do not have any problem with any promoter's making money off of a pool tournament. After all, that is what makes the world go around!

Bob
 
Correct, not every tournament in the country - It can be started region by region - Maybe Corporate America would notice a more nationally organized pool community with every level of player added to the mix - They haven't noticed the Pro Player base alone but with every level under them added to one organization they may
 
One last thing before I sign off for awhile - The handicap entry idea has been shot down too many times here because the lower ranked player still has no chance to win or so they say. The days of playing just to have a chance to play a good player are gone (some minimal exceptions)

If pool could start over and the only tournaments to play in were where you paid an entry fee, played even and tried to improve if you lost we would lose a lot of players but we would be going in a better direction than the direction we are going now
 
Snooker's RI said:
One Stroke

C Players would only play players in their own class so they will win tournaments - Would you pay $4.00 to hang out with whatever touring pro came to town - Maybe learn a little more about the game or just feel like you are part of something bigger in the game.

I don't know what area you are from but most regional tours make you pay a membership fee to play in the events.

How about the room owners waive the greens fees if Shane Van Boening or any other to ranked player came in for a night
Click to expand...


I live in the DC area have played tours like planet pool , Blaze, and Viking state championships and such, I played Mike Davis 7-6 once so I am not a complete hack, and a good finish for me would be 17-25

I know I will never win a event at that level but if I lose a match 9-5 or something like that against a good player I feel good about that, with that said I dont mind paying full entry fee and no spot, I could care less about my chances of winning
If I beat some one I want it mono on mono no other way would satisfy me

The problem with pro pool is it has no TV audience to pull sponsorship money in,
Espn is who they should be talking too if they travel room to room they might get that room for free in turn for the exposure and audience add in some play in turnys giving the locals a shot say 10 open spots and seed the pro's and you might have something going there,

oh and open those pockets back up viewers want to see rack running every sport in America has gone to more scoring pool needs a wow factor long safe games does not meet that criteria

just my little spin on things


onestroke
 
Are you looking to have a structured pool & billiards organization or a tournament?

I would not put any current player in charge of the organization, rather an independent party with a good background in business management. It's not a slight toward any of the players either; I would value their input I just wouldn't put them in command, so-to-speak. And unfortunately I also wouldn't like to see a single sponsor in charge of the entire tour either as the entire organization is then susceptible to their whims.

An entity like the BCA would be best (although I would also stay away from a single country as it's head, maybe Professional Pool & Billiards Association), with individual tournaments sponsored by large companies. Instead of having 7 or 8 different versions of the "world champion" a points system would be a lot easier to figure out who's who based on their performance.

The idea of giving every Tom, Dick and Harry a chance to be the current week's World Champion because he had a crazy spot is why pool is so fractured. I can't play golf to save my life but even with an amazing handicap you just won't see me playing in the Master's. Pool should be the same.

You can play at Billy-Bob's weekend pool tourney all you like, but that has nothing to do with the US Open 9-ball. If you want to play in the Ford Motor Company Delaware Invitational you need a tour card. And the only way to get a tour card is play in one of the sponsored tours, like the Viking Tour and then make it high enough in the rankings to be invited.

I'd also like to see the Mosconi Cup be country versus country, not just America vs Europe. An annual olympics of pool in a manner of speaking.

I might be crazy though, the idea of an independent body (PGA) with sponsored events (The Barclay's) would just be insane, right?

... oh yeah, you know what else is weird ... Golf is pretty slow. And they always play the same game. It's not 9-hole this morning and 10-hole in the afternoon. On Mondays they don't play straight-golf, and I haven't seen a course with only 1 hole yet. And still, it's really successful... That's so un-pool-like! It's almost as ludicrous as that 10,000GBP for highest break in snooker, or 147,000GBP prize for a perfect game. But snooker is weird too, it's slow, and they always play by the same rules. And yet ... those crazy players make a living out of it... that's so unpoolish...
 
Ghosst said:
Are you looking to have a structured pool & billiards organization or a tournament?

I would not put any current player in charge of the organization, rather an independent party with a good background in business management. It's not a slight toward any of the players either; I would value their input I just wouldn't put them in command, so-to-speak. And unfortunately I also wouldn't like to see a single sponsor in charge of the entire tour either as the entire organization is then susceptible to their whims.

An entity like the BCA would be best (although I would also stay away from a single country as it's head, maybe Professional Pool & Billiards Association), with individual tournaments sponsored by large companies. Instead of having 7 or 8 different versions of the "world champion" a points system would be a lot easier to figure out who's who based on their performance.

The idea of giving every Tom, Dick and Harry a chance to be the current week's World Champion because he had a crazy spot is why pool is so fractured. I can't play golf to save my life but even with an amazing handicap you just won't see me playing in the Master's. Pool should be the same.

You can play at Billy-Bob's weekend pool tourney all you like, but that has nothing to do with the US Open 9-ball. If you want to play in the Ford Motor Company Delaware Invitational you need a tour card. And the only way to get a tour card is play in one of the sponsored tours, like the Viking Tour and then make it high enough in the rankings to be invited.

I'd also like to see the Mosconi Cup be country versus country, not just America vs Europe. An annual olympics of pool in a manner of speaking.

I might be crazy though, the idea of an independent body (PGA) with sponsored events (The Barclay's) would just be insane, right?

... oh yeah, you know what else is weird ... Golf is pretty slow. And they always play the same game. It's not 9-hole this morning and 10-hole in the afternoon. On Mondays they don't play straight-golf, and I haven't seen a course with only 1 hole yet. And still, it's really successful... That's so un-pool-like! It's almost as ludicrous as that 10,000GBP for highest break in snooker, or 147,000GBP prize for a perfect game. But snooker is weird too, it's slow, and they always play by the same rules. And yet ... those crazy players make a living out of it... that's so unpoolish...
Click to expand...

The USA is alot differant then counties where snooker is played, pool rooms used to be a place where u would not tell ur mother u went there , I would say that started makeing a turn for the better in the early 80s and continued to grow untill the resession hit now a lot of rooms are closing it just has never been what pool is in other countries,

when rocket ronnie O is not laying down for a bet running a maximum is a thing of beauty:grin:

I believe all four golf majors have amatures in them

onestroke
 
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