Most of the millions who read their horoscopes are well satisfied, and consider the information very valuable--although perhaps not as valuable as the psychic hotline, to which people pay FAR more than the total charged for all pool lessons ever given.
Pausing at the cue ball vs pausing on the back stroke
- Thread starter cuetechasaurus
- Start date
Most of the millions who read their horoscopes are well satisfied, and consider the information very valuable--although perhaps not as valuable as the psychic hotline, to which people pay FAR more than the total charged for all pool lessons ever given.
Neil said, “In the meantime, I'm just going to save myself some worthless typing, and not respond to you anymore. Your quest is not to play better, but to find someone to argue with. That's not going to be me anymore. Have fun, and good luck.”
In the for what it is worth category I have found that when someone uses a concept I have intentionally presented and they obviously then look it up on Wikipedia to form a highly selective reply that is inappropriate, I am working with someone who is less than honest. I discovered this trick a few years ago and it has worked well for me over time. It is necessary to be a little subtle, but it is a tell and saves me from continuing a dialog with someone who has another agenda.
I think that Mike makes a good point and indeed there is much more going on in the SPF approach than the pause. The evaluation is certainly confounded (too many things mixed together) to form a conclusion. However, the evaluative results lead to the suggestion that there is something going on here, in so far as their students imply through a positive evaluation that their game has improved following the instruction.
While it could simply be the Hawthorne Effect or any of several other things there may be more to the issue and the pause may or may not be a part of it. (The Hawthorne Effect is the idea that the introduction of something new produces a positive result).
Given that most instructors teach the same basic things and that SPF, in my experience, seems to emphasize the pause, I am reaching and looking some useful difference. It may not be there and is only a place to start given the lack of data.
In the for what it is worth category I have found that when someone uses a concept I have intentionally presented and they obviously then look it up on Wikipedia to form a highly selective reply that is inappropriate, I am working with someone who is less than honest. I discovered this trick a few years ago and it has worked well for me over time. It is necessary to be a little subtle, but it is a tell and saves me from continuing a dialog with someone who has another agenda.
I think that Mike makes a good point and indeed there is much more going on in the SPF approach than the pause. The evaluation is certainly confounded (too many things mixed together) to form a conclusion. However, the evaluative results lead to the suggestion that there is something going on here, in so far as their students imply through a positive evaluation that their game has improved following the instruction.
While it could simply be the Hawthorne Effect or any of several other things there may be more to the issue and the pause may or may not be a part of it. (The Hawthorne Effect is the idea that the introduction of something new produces a positive result).
Given that most instructors teach the same basic things and that SPF, in my experience, seems to emphasize the pause, I am reaching and looking some useful difference. It may not be there and is only a place to start given the lack of data.
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What instructors have you seen emphasize the pause?
I have yet to see an instructor who emphasises the back pause.
My experience is this: If a student does a shoot-the-ball-into-a-pocket stroke drill, then if the student
A. has a very short or non existent set pause
-the instructor will use the ruler on the student's knuckles
B has a very short or non existent finish (freeze) pause
--the instructor will use the ruler on the student's knuckles
C. has a very short or nonexistent back pause (with otherwise smooth transition)
---the instructor will say nothing
But if an instructor sees a student rush the transition from the backstroke to the forward stroke (e.g., with a jerky motion, or because of a fast backstroke), the instructor might suggest a slower back swing and/or a "deliberate or distinct pause" at the end of the backstroke. And some players (e.g., Buddy Hall and Allison Fisher) might decide to keep the pause at the end of the backstroke because it might help prevent the jerky or rushed motion (e.g., when you are under pressure).
Right?
Regards,
Dave
Joe,
I agree that things are, as you say, 'confounded'.
I have come to the conclusion that it is dangerous (if tempting) to look at different aspects if the stroke in isolation. Different components of the stroke are connected with one another - and not always in an obvious manner.
As a result, players who differ in one aspect of their stroke / fundamentals can disagree about the efficacy of another aspect, without realising why. I suspect that this is at the root of a number of controversies.
Regarding the pause at the end of the backswing, an area that this might well be connected is the grip (although I find it difficult to come to any firm conclusions)
Where a player has a very light grip, it might well be susceptible to unwanted movement caused by the cue's inertial forces. A pause to allow the hand / fingers to settle before the cue's movement changes direction might help in this regard. An 'elliptical' technique might be equally effective.
Where a player's grip is firmer, or otherwise less susceptible to unwanted movement, perhaps the above techniques are less useful.
But for me, the problem with this conjecture is that you would expect some correlation between players with loose grips and those with a final pause or equivalent technique. I am not aware of any such correlation, but maybe others are?
I agree that things are, as you say, 'confounded'.
I have come to the conclusion that it is dangerous (if tempting) to look at different aspects if the stroke in isolation. Different components of the stroke are connected with one another - and not always in an obvious manner.
As a result, players who differ in one aspect of their stroke / fundamentals can disagree about the efficacy of another aspect, without realising why. I suspect that this is at the root of a number of controversies.
Regarding the pause at the end of the backswing, an area that this might well be connected is the grip (although I find it difficult to come to any firm conclusions)
Where a player has a very light grip, it might well be susceptible to unwanted movement caused by the cue's inertial forces. A pause to allow the hand / fingers to settle before the cue's movement changes direction might help in this regard. An 'elliptical' technique might be equally effective.
Where a player's grip is firmer, or otherwise less susceptible to unwanted movement, perhaps the above techniques are less useful.
But for me, the problem with this conjecture is that you would expect some correlation between players with loose grips and those with a final pause or equivalent technique. I am not aware of any such correlation, but maybe others are?
Hi Joe. How's Florida today? Just a note to keep things clear.
Only Certified SPF Instructors teach SET-PAUSE-FINISH.
We emphasize the "PAUSE" to those who have a poor back stroke.
"Given that most instructors teach the same basic things and that SPF, in my experience, seems to emphasize the pause, I am reaching and looking some useful difference. It may not be there and is only a place to start given the lack of data."
agreed.
I don't know about the because part, but yes Buddy and Allison have clear backstroke pauses. Allison switches focus from the cueball to the object ball at the backstroke pause, right? It is much more common to switch focus at the set position or during the backstroke. When does Buddy change his gaze?
If I am under pressure or have the yips, then it is hard for me to pull the trigger. I can't imagine adding another pause of indeterminate length later in the stroke would help me under pressure.
Everything from the set position is mechanical with no judgment involved and no decisions to make. You should be on the right line with the tip at the right spot. Form here it's just the pendulum stroke.
If I then pause again in the backstroke, that adds another spot where I have to ask myself whether I feel comfortable, whether all systems are go, whether now is the time to pull the trigger...
If the problem is a rushed jerky backstroke/transition, then adding a backstroke pause seems to me like an indirect way to fix it.
At the same time, I recognize it's a perfectly good and effective way to go about playing this game....
I think we spend too much time on the issue. If we diverted some of that time to getting players to more fully respect the SET position the world would be a better place ... (from the point of view of the pool gods that is)
Agreed.
Agreed. For for someone that has a tendancy to rush the backstroke and/or the transition, a pause might be helpful if it somehow forces or encourages the person to pull back slowly and accelerate forward smoothly. But I also see your point that a "distinct pause" might not be the best approach for all people (e.g., you).
Agreed ... more people could probably improve more if they focus more and spend more time in the set position. SPF is definitely a strong, powerful, and effective religion, even though I'm not certified to say so. :wink:
Regards,
Dave
OK, Guess I was / am a "back stroke rusher." It has been quite helpful to me. That is the best I can say.
I very much agree with the set premise and have an addition that may or may not be mine. Unfortunately, I only discovered it recently and it has been of very real benefit. As I remember, and we have already seen that my memory is at times suspect, the set is based on that specific distance needed. I have added to it as THE place to aim the cue ball.
In the past I would enter set, check the stick, etc and then proceed to two warm up strokes. However, this is a time when the stick is still and, for me, the best time to check the aim lines, hit, etc. It was a revelation to realize that I could not aim a rifle while moving it and probably should not establish the primary cue stick aim line while moving.
For me, stroking is now about keeping the stick on the pre-established aim line. This has worked so well that nearly all of my study time is now spent on cue ball control as I now feel that I "know" where the aim line is on nearly every shot.
I think that Set / Aim is the foundation for pocketing.
Things are great in Florida Randy. If you are over this way stop in. Not much here in the way of students (too old and cheap) but some nice people.
I very much agree with the set premise and have an addition that may or may not be mine. Unfortunately, I only discovered it recently and it has been of very real benefit. As I remember, and we have already seen that my memory is at times suspect, the set is based on that specific distance needed. I have added to it as THE place to aim the cue ball.
In the past I would enter set, check the stick, etc and then proceed to two warm up strokes. However, this is a time when the stick is still and, for me, the best time to check the aim lines, hit, etc. It was a revelation to realize that I could not aim a rifle while moving it and probably should not establish the primary cue stick aim line while moving.
For me, stroking is now about keeping the stick on the pre-established aim line. This has worked so well that nearly all of my study time is now spent on cue ball control as I now feel that I "know" where the aim line is on nearly every shot.
I think that Set / Aim is the foundation for pocketing.
Things are great in Florida Randy. If you are over this way stop in. Not much here in the way of students (too old and cheap) but some nice people.
Perhaps the Set is the more important aspect of the pool stoke. However, observing my own behavior I continue to think the pause can serve a useful function.
The time to re-set the neurological machinery for the forward stroke could be quite useful. It may be that back stroke rushers, like me, also need the time to allow the neuronal machinery to check the aim line.
In my experience, this pause has come to feel natural. It is the archer analogy that fits here as one way of expressing what it feels like. There is not so much an intentional pause as a natural pause before execution. There is no equivocating; it is more like a natural process and part of the stroking phase. I think it takes awhile, and some effort to get to this place.
If I were still at the university I would design a study in which the utility of the pause could be tested. I suspect there really is something to it as an enhancement to a player’s ability.
There may be some studies in the experimental literature about the use of intentional pauses in human factors research that could be of use. I will see what I can find. The US Air Force is often interested in this type of research so there may be some studies along these lines. More later.
The time to re-set the neurological machinery for the forward stroke could be quite useful. It may be that back stroke rushers, like me, also need the time to allow the neuronal machinery to check the aim line.
In my experience, this pause has come to feel natural. It is the archer analogy that fits here as one way of expressing what it feels like. There is not so much an intentional pause as a natural pause before execution. There is no equivocating; it is more like a natural process and part of the stroking phase. I think it takes awhile, and some effort to get to this place.
If I were still at the university I would design a study in which the utility of the pause could be tested. I suspect there really is something to it as an enhancement to a player’s ability.
There may be some studies in the experimental literature about the use of intentional pauses in human factors research that could be of use. I will see what I can find. The US Air Force is often interested in this type of research so there may be some studies along these lines. More later.
I endeavor (I think successfully) to us Randy's SPF process. When I'm shooting well I don't notice if I'm doing it but pretty sure I am. When I'm playing poorly generally I notice I'm not doing it and I make a conscious effort to use it and it helps me get back on track. Therefore I guess I'd have to agree with Randy and say I "pause" at three places the "Set" (cueball), the "Pause" (backstroke), and the "Finish" (post follow through). Except for the "Finish" my pause are pretty short lived, but they are definitely there on purpose and I believe allow my mind to become "still" and to focus better
Steve.
Steve.
Well yes, I get that part. I was just relating my personal experience: that pausing, no matter how I slice it on these shots, makes me miss.
Which is really what a lot of this is all about: there are many different techniques out there that work differently for different folks. I don't think you can say: do SPF if you want to be a better player. And I certainly don't think you should be saying a player should do SPF if they want to be the best player they can be. Because that could very easily be wrong and sentence a player to a lifetime of perdition.
Lou Figueroa
GetMeThere...At least Neil knows what he's talking about.That's why he has fans and followers (including myself).
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
You've been watching too many episodes of Glee.
Lou Figueroa
Right, we all transinate (?) But the issue at hand is the pause, or link if you prefer, between back stroke and forward stroke.
Are you saying/teaching this pause needs to be deliberate and prolonged, if even for just a fraction of second?
Lou Figueroa
Here is an interesting thought from research in human factors as it relates to nuclear plants and the personnel who work in these facilities.
One of the reasons for errors at nuclear plants is based in the idea that as long as workers ignore alarm signals (and do not pause) there will be mistakes.
This leads to the idea that the pause allows time for one to detect stroking errors. Now there is an idea to consider.
I think there may a difference between a natural pause and an intentional pause. The former takes as long as it takes depending on table conditions.
I now think of it as learning a new dance step. Once learned it is natural and follows with one's natural rhythm
One of the reasons for errors at nuclear plants is based in the idea that as long as workers ignore alarm signals (and do not pause) there will be mistakes.
This leads to the idea that the pause allows time for one to detect stroking errors. Now there is an idea to consider.
I think there may a difference between a natural pause and an intentional pause. The former takes as long as it takes depending on table conditions.
I now think of it as learning a new dance step. Once learned it is natural and follows with one's natural rhythm
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Let's not stray too far off base here guys. SPF are just diagnostic tools to evaluate and grade the three stops of your stroke.
Knowing SPF won't make you a better player. Understanding & correcting the faults of your stroke could.
SPF are just guidelines to judge your personal stroke with.....SPF=randyg
Knowing SPF won't make you a better player. Understanding & correcting the faults of your stroke could.
SPF are just guidelines to judge your personal stroke with.....SPF=randyg
I just got back from Q-sharks, where I spent four hours watching players and looking for backstroke pauses.
I watched...
Brandon Shuff
Warren Kiamco
Stevie Moore
Beau Runningen
Karl Boyes
Rodney Morris
Rory Hendrickson
Darren Appleton
Dennis Orcullo
and others
Plenty of set and finish pauses, but no backstroke pauses --with the possible exception of Appleton, who may have had a slight one...
I also watched Stevie Moore pretty carefully for a couple hours looking for any evidence he does any kind of pivot-to-aim method. Negative.
The conscious pause at the end of the final backstroke is a technique that has been employed by enough major players that players who are developing their game owe it to themselves to give it a serious try. If, after a serious try, it doesn't work then discard it the same as one might try and discard the slip stroke... or the technique of letting go of the cue during the forward stroke.