Why CTE is silly

[dr_dave]

CTE is THE MOST DISCUSSED AIMING SYSTEM IN THE WORLD.

Joey,

CTE is certainly the most discussed aiming system on AZB, but I think very few pool players in the world have even heard of it. I have certainly never seen CTE in any published pool book or video, mainstream or otherwise.

Ghost-ball aiming (and other systems based on it) most certainly receives more attention and discussion. It is in practically every book every written about pool (although, it might be given different names). It is taught my many (probably most) instructors. And there are many (too many to count) aiming products on the market based on ghost-ball aiming.

The difference between CTE and ghost-ball aiming is that CTE has been discussed and debated for years and years, and it seems to become more and more "misunderstood" as time goes on. Ghost-ball aiming was perfectly clear the first time it was ever described and/or illustrated (probably many hundreds of years ago).

Regards, with respect,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

And how do you ghost ballers aim with english???

BHE, FHE, or a combination of the two, based on shot distance, speed, conditions, cue elevation, and draw/follow.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dorabelle]

For what its worth: I once got some great advice. It goes like this:
I took a lesson from a world beater once. He asked me how I aimed and I gave him some crazy mathematical explanation on how I aimed. Funny, I couldn't make a ball. He said forget all that. You know where to hit the object ball. focus on that spot and work on your alignment. Why clutter your brain so much. Its a simple game. So I got rid of all the clutter and my game improved a bunch. Hope this helps some people trying to aim. You know where to hit the ball. Keep it simple. This game is what you think it is.

 

[Cornerman]

Ghost-ball aiming was perfectly clear the first time it was ever described and/or illustrated (probably many hundreds of years ago).

Interestingly enough, although I show beginners Ghost Ball Aiming, I feel slightly at odds because I know if they do exactly what I tell them and they hit that Ghost Ball exactlly right, they'll miss many shots due to CIT. Then the fudging of the system begins. That's my view point, but I'm sure others see it as still a "real point" aim system.

And, again, then there's english.

Fred

 

[Cornerman]

BHE, FHE, or a combination of the two, based on shot distance, speed, conditions, cue elevation, and draw/follow.

Regards,
Dave

That might be what you do, but I doubt 5% of all pool players who aim at a Ghost Ball have a clue about BHE let alone FHE. They guess Dave (by experience). I think you'd agree.

Fred

 

[BRKNRUN]

Interestingly enough, although I show beginners Ghost Ball Aiming, I feel slightly at odds because I know if they do exactly what I tell them and they hit that Ghost Ball exactlly right, they'll miss many shots due to CIT. Then the fudging of the system begins. That's my view point, but I'm sure others see it as still a "real point" aim system.

And, again, then there's english.

Fred

So what aiming method automatically compensates for CIT?

 

[Tom In Cincy]

Top 10 Posters in this thread.

I sure hope everyone is getting their posting's worth

These 10 posters have contributed 889 posts out of 1422 (as of 430pm pst)


GetMeThere 195
Patrick Johnson 140
SpiderWebComm 102
dr_dave 87
JB Cases 71
Neil 62
cookie man 59
lfigueroa 53
stan shuffett 37
Mikjary 33

 

[dr_dave]

Interestingly enough, although I show beginners Ghost Ball Aiming, I feel slightly at odds because I know if they do exactly what tell them and they hit that Ghost Ball exactlly right, they'll miss many shots due to CIT. Then the fudging of the system begins. That's my view point, but I'm sure others see it as still a "real point" aim system.

By my definition, the true ghost-ball position is the position that takes throw (CIT or SIT) into consideration. That's why ghost-ball is great for beginners. You can start them out with the basic form (assuming no throw). Then you can introduce CIT and SIT, and show how the required ghost-ball position is actually slightly different for different types of shots.

Regardless of which "aiming system" you might teach, squirt, swerve, and throw must be dealt with. IMO, ghost-ball aiming offers a straightforward way to deal with throw, and BHE/FHE offers a straightforward way to deal with squerve (squirt + swerve). Both techniques require lots of practice, but the "information" is clear and understandable.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

That might be what you do, but I doubt 5% of all pool players who aim at a Ghost Ball have a clue about BHE let alone FHE. They guess Dave (by experience). I think you'd agree.

I do agree.

Hopefully, more will learn over time so they won't need to guess as much, and maybe even build "experience" faster.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Cornerman]

So what aiming method automatically compensates for CIT?

My feeling has always been that part of why so many shots can go in with the same ball-to-ball relation is because of the change in CIT throughout the range in cut angles. Maybe Dr. Dave has already mapped this out and done an "end result graph."

Regardless, since the whole idea of ball-to-ball relation aiming is "pick two points, pivot (or no pivot) and shoot," there is no "let me compensate for CIT." The compensation is inside the mystical black box and the users only concern themselves with inputs and outputs.

Fred

 

[dr_dave]

My feeling has always been that part of why so many shots can go in with the same ball-to-ball relation is because of the change in CIT throughout the range in cut angles. Maybe Dr. Dave has already mapped this out and done an "end result graph."

I could do that fairly easily, but I don't think the results would be very useful. Throw varies with angle, speed (at certain angles), follow/draw/stun amount, English type and amount, and conditions. For more info, and supporting resources, see items 15-25 in the list of effects here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#English_effects​

Regards,
Dave

 

[Cornerman]

I could do that fairly easily, but I don't think the results would be very useful. Throw varies with angle, speed (at certain angles), follow/draw/stun amount, English type and amount, and conditions. For more info, and supporting resources, see items 15-25 in the list of effects here:

This sort of sequés to other edge aiming ideas. For example, the 1/2 ball bank. If every bank that you see as nearly the 1/2 ball hit, aim the 1/2 ball hit (Center to Edge). I think the best theory is that this eliminates one variable, gives a visually exact aim point, and allows them to blend speed as necessary. And players will blend that speed.

Could this be related to all ball-to-ball aiming? Maybe for a range of shots.

Fred

 

[dr_dave]

This sort of sequés to other edge aiming ideas. For example, the 1/2 ball bank. If every bank that you see as nearly the 1/2 ball hit, aim the 1/2 ball hit (Center to Edge). I think the best theory is that this eliminates one variable, gives a visually exact aim point, and allows them to blend speed as necessary. And players will blend that speed.

Could this be related to all ball-to-ball aiming? Maybe for a range of shots.

I'm not sure what you mean by "ball-to-ball aiming." Is it another name for one of the systems listed here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html​

If not, please explain.

Thanks,
Dave

 

[BRKNRUN]

Here is the silliest thing about this whole thread.

Hal came up with this method of aiming (and many others)...Hal himself said that differnt methods work better than others. some people need this type of method...some people need that type of method....CTE is only one method that Hal has.

Hal teaches/taught these methods for "FREE"....Now we have a thread here with claims that this is the most discussed aiming system......(and now hints of claims of most top pros use a form of CTE)........REALLY!!!!!

I never did like seeing someone getting something for free from CraigsList and then a week later they have it for sale.

I don't know why I feel this way...but I get the feeling this thread is like one of those day trader stock forums....where a group of guys buys a cheap stock and then promptly jumps on the forums making posts of how great the stock is....and how it is the next best thing since sliced bread......then when the stock goes up a couple ticks.....to the dump they go!!!!

Nothing important about CTE ever gets answered.

How do you make shots to other places than the corner pocket?

How (keeping both balls in the exact same spots) do you send the OB in two different directions?

How (if you can't determine a straight in shot) can you determing a half ball hit?

If you can't align straight away from center CB to 1/4 OB or center CB to center OB...How can you make an "air pivot" to determin the contact point (somewhere in between) and then be able to set up to that alingment?

How on earth does CTE compensate for CIT?

Why (once I have made my parallell shift from center to edge) would I need to look back up at the OB....should'nt I just be able to pivot to center and shoot center CB?

How do I determin what center CB actually is when I execute this pivot?
Is it base center from "initial center alignment" or is it the "new center" viewed from the paralell shift? (because remember....just as the "edge" changes as your perspective changes...so does the center)

 

[Cornerman]

I'm not sure what you mean by "ball-to-ball aiming." Is it another name for one of the systems listed here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html​

If not, please explain.

Thanks,
Dave

Ball-to-ball aiming or ball relation aiming is the group of aiming systems that have the player aiming one part of the cueball to another part of the object ball. This differs from Ghost ball aiming where you aim the cue ball to a point in space, not on the ball.

Hal Houle's version of the quarter ball aiming method is a ball-to-ball aiming system. So are Center-to-Edge and Small Ball aiming. Joe Tucker's aiming system I consider a ball-to-ball aiming system and is probably one that most "geometrically correct" stalwarts would agree is an aiming system that fits their preferred model.

And then there's stick aiming like The Ultimate Aiming System, Shish Kebob (my personal favorite), and some of the fractional stick systems Hal teaches (9/16ths or something like that). Other than the UAS, most of the other stick aiming systems start with a ball-to-ball relation (center to edge, quarter to center, etc.). Hal separates his stick aiming from his ball-to-ball systems. True students of Hal's should realize that "ball-to- ball" and "stick systems" are how he grouped his systems.

Fred

 

[eezbank]

I think many top players already use it. I talked in length to a very good player who was sharing his particular aiming method on certain shots and it was remarkably similar to CTE as I know it right now. For the moment, I don't care to get in these discussions and when I know more I will contribute.

For the time being, I'll just listen to what others have to say.

I do know that CTE is one of the most interesting and talked about aiming systems I have ever heard of and it is almost funny with all of the gesturing and posturing over what is known or thought to be known about CTE. Maybe posturing is too strong of a word because I don't think anyone is intentionally trying to deceive anyone.

More information will come out over the next several months and it may be turn out to be a bit of what many think it is.

Whatever it turns out to be, CTE IS THE MOST TALKED ABOUT AIMING SYSTEM IN THE WORLD. Even PERFECT AIM from the great player Gene Albrecht doesn't compare with interest or volume of discussion.

I get a kick out of people making such a fuss over something that some deem, "silly". It makes my day to see all of this discussion just as long as the discussion doesn't deteriorate into mockery of posters, petty name calling, mudslinging or ridicule of another's religious beliefs.

Stan Shuffett's video will probably confirm for both camps some of what they already want to believe and you know what, that may be a good thing too. We'll all just have to wait and see what Stan's video is able to share.

No matter what you call it, no matter who you are, you can't deny that CTE is THE MOST DISCUSSED AIMING SYSTEM IN THE WORLD.

JoeyA

I think a lot of the problem with the CTE info that is out there is that those of us that have tried to explain what we are doing haven't been able to put into words or pictures what is really happening in the process.

When the video does come out it will be first hand information on the PRO-1 system. It will be done by someone that teaches pool for a living. Not by someone (myself included) that is trying to translate what we think is happening.

I apologize Stan for any info I have put out there that was incomplete or inaccurate. It was my intention to try to help the people that wanted to learn basic CTE. I realize by posting incomplete info I created somewhat of a mess. I also apologize to anyone that used this info and wasted their time. I ask that you all please dismiss what you think you know about CTE and allow Stan to present this info, then give that info a fair debate.

 

[Cornerman]

Here is the silliest thing about this whole thread.

Hal came up with this method of aiming (and many others)...Hal himself said that differnt methods work better than others. some people need this type of method...some people need that type of method....CTE is only one method that Hal has.

I hope you don't mind that I'll just give answers to a few of the questions, based on my personal knowledge and nobody else's. Of the 10 or more systems that Hal told me about, I use two or three. Some shots, they naturally fall to one of his systems. Other shots, they just look better with other systems. Personally, I like that idea. More ways to look at the same type of shots.

Hal teaches/taught these methods for "FREE"....Now we have a thread here with claims that this is the most discussed aiming system......(and now hints of claims of most top pros use a form of CTE)........REALLY!!!!!

I think Hal might cringe at some of the misrepresentation of his systems.

Nothing important about CTE ever gets answered.

As an engineer, I also questioned HAL's systems, drew diagrams, etc. Then I simply tried and I liked. The only question that needed to be answered for me was "is this making you a better shotmaker." And that's it. I scratched my head like crazy wondering why a shot and method that couldn't possibly work was working. It can't possibly work. End of story. Except, I've won tournaments at some very tough pocketed-tables that some posters on this board have seen me win. That's anectodal, but that's all I've got.

How do you make shots to other places than the corner pocket?

The very start of Hal's teaching to anyone is shots to the side pocket. I'm not sure where this question is coming from, but again, it could be that there is misrepresentation.

Fred

 

[BRKNRUN]

I realize by posting incomplete info I created somewhat of a mess. I also apologize to anyone that used this info and wasted their time. I ask that you all please dismiss what you think you know about CTE and allow Stan to present this info, then give that info a fair debate.

I don't think Stan is presenting anything...I think he is "selling" it.

So in other words...."If I confused you...sorry about your luck.....pay the man"

I would rather pay an instructor money that teaches proper mechanics....Grip, Stance, Posture, Alignment (meaning feet,body,head,eyes)....I will figure out how to aim based on those mechanics. :smile:

 

[BRKNRUN]

The very start of Hal's teaching to anyone is shots to the side pocket. I'm not sure where this question is coming from, but again, it could be that there is misrepresentation.

Fred

Every video...every description is shooting the ball into a corner pocket.....The way the system is being described is that it "defaults" the ball in the pocket...(without even looking at the pocket in some cases)

So...this spurs the question....what do you do (useing CTE) to make the ball go toward the side pocket instead of the corner....or instead of going into the corner go the say the first diamond on the end rail next to the corner.

I know how to do this with other systems...but not CTE.

 

[Cornerman]

Every video...every description is shooting the ball into a corner pocket.....The way the system is being described is that it "defaults" the ball in the pocket...(without even looking at the pocket in some cases)

Maybe the CTE advocates need to make another
video for side pockets.

So...this spurs the question....what do you do (useing CTE) to make the ball go toward the side pocket instead of the corner....

I know how to do this with other systems...but not CTE.

Good question. I also would be using a different system.

Fred