Just my observations. They may be a little old, though. None of the strong players I've ever known has had lessons. As I talked about in an earlier post, the phenomenon of "lessons for everything" is a relatively new one. Thirty or more years ago "pool lessons" were virtually unknown as a business. Before the internet, few people would know where to even LOOK for such a thing.
Are pool schools worth the money?
- Thread starter cwilmeth
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Just my observations. They may be a little old, though. None of the strong players I've ever known has had lessons. As I talked about in an earlier post, the phenomenon of "lessons for everything" is a relatively new one. Thirty or more years ago "pool lessons" were virtually unknown as a business. Before the internet, few people would know where to even LOOK for such a thing.
Still, I believe there were people getting paid to give lessons 30 years ago. I'd be completely surprised if that were not the case. I know I paid for golf lessons thirty years ago. No, there was no internet, and you wouldn't find it adverstised in the yellow pages. But every golf course could and would hook you up with someone for instruction. Again, I expect there were pool players getting paid to give training back then, even if it weren't a formal "pool school".
I called you on the cold hard facts issue, because you won't believe that instruction is beneficial without some quantifiable cold hard factoid or other. Yet you will easily make broad assumptions on the numbers of players who have theoretically never had formal instruction, and proclaim that as a reason to doubt the effectiveness of said instruction.
You can't have it both ways. You want "cold hard facts", you must use them yourself when making such bold and provactive arguments. No assumptions, please. "Just the facts, 'mam." Else you remain no different than the rest of us in these arguments.
Not at all. The question is whether pool school can help a player improve, moreso than just doing it solo. My answer remains yes. I'm sure Randy will tell you that what he has learned from all those instructors has helpd his game improve.
I can definitely tell you that 3 days in pool school for me, after 30 years of trying to do it on my own, led me to huge improvements in my own game.
Many of my students come to me saying they feel they have hit a wall, and aren't getting better on their own, Those same students will tell you that what they learned in class helped them toward continued improvement.
Now, let's get down to the original question...Is pool school worth the money. My gut response would be that for you...no, it probably isn't, For most players...yes, it is absolutely worth it...if they really want to improve, have an open mind, and the willingness to apply what they learn in class after they leave.
Steve
Golf, as we all know, is a completely different level. But sure, I'm not saying that NOBODY ever paid ANYBODY for pool lessons thirty years ago. But it was not common. It was not a "standard part" of pool. Thirty years ago if you wanted to play the violin you took violin lessons; if you wanted to play pool you picked up a cue and started playing.
I don't refuse to believe that instruction can be beneficial. I believe:
1) "Instruction for everything" is the new fad, and in many areas it turns out with the blind leading the blind.
2) There are not a huge number of "secrets" necessary to learn in pool--or things discovered that are on offer only under special circumstances. Regular guys have become great pool players on their own. That's NOT true for, say, figure skating, where there's much more involved physically, or being a concert violinist, where physical techniques reachable by only 0.01% of the population are needed JUST TO BEGIN.
Not true. Reasonable assumptions can be part of a reasoned position. The danger is making UNreasoned assumptions (such as: an "instructor" knows how to instruct) or worse yet being oblivious to the assumptions one is making without thinking.
I BE WILLING TO BET GETMETHERE VOTED FOR OBAMA!!!!:thumbup:
DO YOU GET ALONG WITH ANYONE ON HERE? I MEAN THE ONLY POSTS I HAVE SEEN OF YOURS ARE NEGATIVE ONES.
DO YOU JUST NEED A HUG????
DO YOU GET ALONG WITH ANYONE ON HERE? I MEAN THE ONLY POSTS I HAVE SEEN OF YOURS ARE NEGATIVE ONES.
DO YOU JUST NEED A HUG????
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You probably should have actually done some research before you posted that statement,
Check with Stevie Moore and ask him how he enjoyed Stan's class.
Ask Allison if she learned the game all on her own, or if she had instructors throughout her career.
Ask Karen if she ever went to an instructor.
Get back to me after you talk with those three, and I will give you some more to talk to.
Steve
I don't completely disagree with that. Afterall, there are probably lots of people who would pay the fee just to have someone pay attention to them for a few hours! So, for them, it's surely worth it.
My overall problem is with some general, widespread cultural ideas that seem to be on the upswing:
1) You can BUY whatever you want--even ability.
2) The best source of ANY AND ALL information is "experts."
IMO those two cultural tendencies produce people who are reluctant to WORK to achieve things and to THINK and LEARN to come to know things.
It's quite ridiculous, you know, to believe that you can only learn FROM OTHERS. Who did "the others" learn from then? Who "learned first?" At the bottom there always had to be somebody who actually learned directly from experience and thinking and effort.
Anyone who has done anything well has been doing some THINKING, LEARNING, and WORKING on their own steam. That is a fact of life that I have learned over a long road. Anything that subverts that knowledge or practice from people is not something good.
I am sure you did not make the assessment that PoolSchool would not
benefit GMT based on his skill level. I am assuming it was based on his unwillingness to listen and learn
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Hey! Didn't you see his post that we aren't supposed to do name calling here?!?!?!?!?!?
Old school mindset - Lee Trevino when asked why he never had a swing coach - "never found one that could beat me". BTW, Lee was a lot like Yogi Berra when it came to quotes, but this one always stood out to me.
Yet nowadays, EVERY top player has a swing coach!! Can those swing coaches beat the players? NOT A CHANCE. What they can do is recognize little flaws and inconsistencies in a players game or swing. Even the Merry Mex (Lee Trevino) himself has offered to fix Tiger's driver troubles....c'mon Lee, you saying you can beat Tiger? lol
Will instruction in any sport or game help? IMHO - absolutely; with the caveat that the instructor really knows what to look for, knows how to correct problems, and is a good "teacher" (can illustrate and effectively work with the "student" when fixing flaws).
PS. Around my neck of the woods we have - http://www.cuesportcollege.com/
Give them a try, Fred IS a very good instructor!
Yet nowadays, EVERY top player has a swing coach!! Can those swing coaches beat the players? NOT A CHANCE. What they can do is recognize little flaws and inconsistencies in a players game or swing. Even the Merry Mex (Lee Trevino) himself has offered to fix Tiger's driver troubles....c'mon Lee, you saying you can beat Tiger? lol
Will instruction in any sport or game help? IMHO - absolutely; with the caveat that the instructor really knows what to look for, knows how to correct problems, and is a good "teacher" (can illustrate and effectively work with the "student" when fixing flaws).
PS. Around my neck of the woods we have - http://www.cuesportcollege.com/
Give them a try, Fred IS a very good instructor!
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I was under the impression that Stevie Moore was already a pro when he met Stan. Am I wrong?
As for Allison Fisher (or other women), I agree: women like to seek out instruction--and it's often to their benefit. I also think the rise of Asian players is due to early instruction. Instructions to RAW BEGINNERS is unquestionably useful. But that sort of instruction can be simple, easy, and cheap.
Still:
1) A few exceptions doesn't make the argument. I'll still stand by my original observation that most strong players did NOT arrive there via instruction.
2) One STILL must ask the question: How would those same people play if they HADN'T received the instruction? THAT is the only way to know if the INSTRUCTION was an important component....and we already DO KNOW, beyond any doubt whatsoever, that many people have come to play extremely well without instruction.
I hope you never get into any legal trouble, but if you do, I hope you hire a lawyer who went to an accredited Law School to learn how to do his job.
And should you ever need a surgeon, let's hope he had good instructors when he was in medical school.
Of course, pool isn't important, so the DIY method is probably just fine for you.
Steve
The answer is....... That most pros are older than 20 and the schools were not as assessable as they are now . IMO
What??????????? A PRO who went to an INSTRUCTOR?????????
OMG! I didn't think the best players needed instructors!
You don't suppose he went to Stan in order to try and get better, do you?
Steve
I guess you didn't read my post where I referred to "technical learning" as benefiting from teachers. It would be more interesting to discuss these things if you actually bothered to read and understand what I posted in response to your posts (which I did read).
That's exactly correct. So one thing we CAN KNOW then (amongst a subject where it's difficult to really know ANYTHING with certainty), is that it's possible to learn to play very well without receiving instruction. I think it's VERY IMPORTANT for people to at least THINK ABOUT that fact for awhile.
Of course, the easy answer that people give themselves is "well, he has natural talent." But is that really true in pool? Personally, I'm not so sure. Have you never played a shot, or even an entire rack, as well as a pro? Center pocket and excellent position?
I'd be willing to bet you never played even a bar of music as well as Jascha Heifetz, and in that case I would be willing to ascribe the difference to "natural talent." Pool? Not so much.
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Quite seriously, when you learned to play pool, you did it all on your own? No one showed you the right way to hold the cue, how to make a proper bridge, how and when to apply english? No one EVER taught you any of these parts of the game, or anything that helped you with these parts of the game? You seriously learned it all on your own?
Really?
Pool is that easy? Or are you a phenom? Why aren't you beating the world-beaters?
Wow.
I'm still relatively new to the game, and I find that there are soooo many nuances of the game that are FAR more easily learned with someone showing you in person, than trying to learn from a book or DVD. From the basics, on up. It is simply atounding to me that you cannot see the benefits of instruction. Another pair of eyes, seeing what you are doing. Things you cannot see for yourself.
Does that minimize the need for individual practice and drilling, no. Working things out for yourself can be extremely rewarding, when it works. But you can also find yourself doing something the wrong way enough to make it habit, when a proper instructor could have saved you all the time and effort of that particular technique you were doing incorrectly for all that time.
Once again, we find that you engage in this because you like to argue, and we are feeding right into your need. So I'll disengage at this point. Don't worry, someone will start another CTE thread soon enough, and you can find plenty of willing participants to sate your online debating "need".
And did he "get better?" And was his improvement actually due to the instruction?
If you (or Stevie himself) think you know the answers to those questions it's only because you confuse fact with opinion, and are inexperienced in discerning between the two. That's the point I've been trying to make, and the one you apparently can't even begin to understand.
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Yeah. I learned in a pool hall. Whaddya think, somebody folded their arms around me and showed me how to stroke
I didn't say instruction has to be bad.
I'm trying to say that people are becoming "instruction crazy" and think it can easily solve all their problems. And I'm saying that just because somebody calls themselves an "instructor" is no guarantee that they CAN actually offer you something truly useful and of value.
....and I'm saying that there's not much of a clear way to definitively and objectively determine whether the instruction someone wishes to offer is worthy or worthless.
Instruction is excellent in THEORY. In practice....it's a minefield. Furthermore, in pool, experience shows that it has been possible for many to learn to play very well without instruction.