Are pool schools worth the money?

I'll also add that spending a couple hours playing pool with Blackjack, I also learned a lot! He gave me some of the best advice on pool strategy that I've ever received! My 14.1 and 9 ball games are MUCH better after meeting him!

Brian
 
I can't wait for you guys to leave! That'll make room for me to move in on your witless prey.. muahaha. :p

I gave up trying to listen to whathisface since he was only in it for the argument. Looked up some of his past posts and he didn't seem to offer up anything worth a damn, so no loss in ignoring him. :boring2:

For all of the times that people say things like, "I figured $5 to $20 a rack wasn't too bad a price for a lesson," I can't believe there are still people out there with that kind of attitude towards lessons. I've done alright for myself in 6 years and as little as I am interested in some of the more standard things being taught, I have no doubt whatsoever that my game would've been there in less time had I been getting lessons.

Remind me to call Jimmie Johnson next time my car is having problems. :rolleyes:
 
Neil said:
In the past, the pros played about the same speed as the pros do today. However, now with the advent of easily attainable instruction, whether through the internet, books, DVD's, or in person instructors, there are a LOT more high level players than there was 20-30 years ago.
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You know, I agree with that. But I think the phenomenon you describe is mostly happening in Europe and Asia, and it mostly involves beginning players, and encouragements toward constructive practice, etc. Put a bunch of young kids in a structured environment that appreciates pool and you're going to harvest a decent crop of good players--not necessarily because they got "instruction" so much as a supportive environment to try to play well.

The issue under discussion here is somewhat different: Can an experienced player find instruction to help with problems in his game? I don't think the answer to that question is so easy. I DO think that people like the idea of wizards, the idea that they can achieve things EASILY if only someone told them how, that money can buy them whatever they want.

But I don't see a lot of evidence for the existence of the wizards, and I don't think there's secret information for them to supply.

I'll give an example: I wonder how many of the people who seek instruction have videotaped themselves playing and given some consideration to where they might be going wrong. Videocams are ubiquitous--most cell phones have them. So if someone hasn't even gone THAT far in trying to solve their problems, I really have a doubt whether ANY instruction is really going to help them that much. Because.....

Playing well is a function of the DETERMINATION to play well. And if you are really dedicated enough you almost certainly WILL play well--and if you're not you almost certainly won't. And either of those will likely be true with or without instruction.

I think a great example of this is Keith McCready--somebody who obviously taught himself, which you can know because surely nobody in his right mind would TEACH somebody to hold a cue like a trained seal. According to Danny Diliberto's story about him he was making thousands when he was, what, 13 or so? He did so well on PURE determination--even with HORRENDOUS form. Imagine the MOTIVATION of a kid that age, with the idea that he could make that kind of money PURELY ON HIS OWN STEAM, for himself. He learned simply because he was determined to, and nobody would stop him. I think Efren Reyes probably has a similar story.

It's reasonable to infer from the above that learning to play well is WELL WITHIN REACH, physically, of most people; and that the motivation to make it happen is the real key element for doing it. That would make something like "instruction" just fluff (which is NOT to say that such people wouldn't soak up useful instruction like a sponge--they would). But the KEY element is personal determination--which is something that seems is less and less in evidence today. Today people want to BUY such things--look at plastic surgery: people want to BUY the ability to be beautiful!

....and it also turns out that where there are eager buyers....sellers just seem to pop up out of nowhere ;)

My Dad always used to say..."There's an ass for every seat."
 
GetMeThere said:
You know, I agree with that. But I think the phenomenon you describe is mostly happening in Europe and Asia, and it mostly involves beginning players, and encouragements toward constructive practice, etc. Put a bunch of young kids in a structured environment that appreciates pool and you're going to harvest a decent crop of good players--not necessarily because they got "instruction" so much as a supportive environment to try to play well.

The issue under discussion here is somewhat different: Can an experienced player find instruction to help with problems in his game? I don't think the answer to that question is so easy. I DO think that people like the idea of wizards, the idea that they can achieve things EASILY if only someone told them how, that money can buy them whatever they want.

But I don't see a lot of evidence for the existence of the wizards, and I don't think there's secret information for them to supply.

I'll give an example: I wonder how many of the people who seek instruction have videotaped themselves playing and given some consideration to where they might be going wrong. Videocams are ubiquitous--most cell phones have them. So if someone hasn't even gone THAT far in trying to solve their problems, I really have a doubt whether ANY instruction is really going to help them that much. Because.....

Playing well is a function of the DETERMINATION to play well. And if you are really dedicated enough you almost certainly WILL play well--and if you're not you almost certainly won't. And either of those will likely be true with or without instruction.

I think a great example of this is Keith McCready--somebody who obviously taught himself, which you can know because surely nobody in his right mind would TEACH somebody to hold a cue like a trained seal. According to Danny Diliberto's story about him he was making thousands when he was, what, 13 or so? He did so well on PURE determination--even with HORRENDOUS form. Imagine the MOTIVATION of a kid that age, with the idea that he could make that kind of money PURELY ON HIS OWN STEAM, for himself. He learned simply because he was determined to, and nobody would stop him. I think Efren Reyes probably has a similar story.

It's reasonable to infer from the above that learning to play well is WELL WITHIN REACH, physically, of most people; and that the motivation to make it happen is the real key element for doing it. That would make something like "instruction" just fluff (which is NOT to say that such people wouldn't soak up useful instruction like a sponge--they would). But the KEY element is personal determination--which is something that seems is less and less in evidence today. Today people want to BUY such things--look at plastic surgery: people want to BUY the ability to be beautiful!

....and it also turns out that where there are eager buyers....sellers just seem to pop up out of nowhere ;)

My Dad always used to say..."There's an ass for every seat."
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Kieth McCready will always be a bad example in this type of thread, he was a pure natural pool player. Probably the only thing he learned from others had to do with strategy. Pool lessons for most people is a smart idea as long as your willing to work on the things that you were taught.
 
Hmmmm

GetMeThere said:
, I really have a doubt whether ANY instruction is really going to help them that much. Because.....

Playing well is a function of the DETERMINATION to play well. And if you are really dedicated enough you almost certainly WILL play well--and if you're not you almost certainly won't. And either of those will likely be true with or without instruction.
(really, all those career minor league baseball players who can't hit major league pitching.....how much more determined could they be playing baseball their whole lives and then play at the low minor league level for another decade just NOT to ever get to the bigs)

I think a great example of this is Keith McCready--somebody who obviously taught himself, which you can know because surely nobody in his right mind would TEACH somebody to hold a cue like a trained seal.

(Ummm, his father taught him to shoot,and his "seal" arm is because he was too short when playing and had no choice but too develop this habit)
According to Danny Diliberto's story about him he was making thousands when he was, what, 13 or so? He did so well on PURE determination--even with HORRENDOUS form. Imagine the MOTIVATION of a kid that age, with the idea that he could make that kind of money PURELY ON HIS OWN STEAM, for himself. He learned simply because he was determined to, and nobody would stop him. I think Efren Reyes probably has a similar story.

(not only did he get lessons from his father and learned from others on the road, but he was a phenom, no amount of determination turns you into a phenom at the tender at of 12)

It's reasonable to infer from the above that learning to play well is WELL WITHIN REACH, physically, of most people;

(No, hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it is NOT) Give the top players their due, but NOT everyone can be one,,,sorry.

Today people want to BUY such things--look at plastic surgery: people want to BUY the ability to be beautiful!
(this is just a plain silly comparison....geez !! )

So I guess Tiger Woods bought himself the legend of being one of the best golfers of all time....Thank God he never took a lesson or had a coach....oh, that's right, he did and he does !! I wanna see the guy that is so determined but had no instructon try and hit a major league slider !!!
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GetMeThere said:
I've gotten numerous responses in this vein. So I'll respond (only briefly, because it's not worth much time to address this issue).

NO. There are no requirements of ability for instructors. And the points I've tried to raise in this thread DOES NOT DEPEND ON THAT POSITION.

The important question is much more fundamental: What is the evidence that "instructors" can really supply something of value?

That is simply a question that is MUCH LESS WELL UNDERSTOOD than most people understand. Yes, for technical information, sure, there's a tremendous amount of information, and if someone can help you wade through all of it, because THEY HAVE ALREADY WADED THROUGH IT THEMSELVES, then they can easily be of help to someone learning.

But when it comes to HUMAN PERFORMANCE, IN FACT, all bets are off for most disciplines. For everything from music to pool, how well you play is based mostly on you personally, and the extent of your interest and desire to play well. Very little objective evidence has ever been compiled about HOW efficiently to instruct people to perform well.

....whereas there is always NO SHORTAGE OF PEOPLE who are willing to claim they can instruct people very efficiently.
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Instructors in all walks of life must be doing something right, there are new records being set everyday.
 
GetMeThere said:
1) Most (I'd say virtually all) strong players have NOT had pool instruction.
2) Performance instruction for the public at large is generally a NEW IDEA--which is the reason it's easy to say that most strong players never had professional lessons: they simply weren't widely available even twenty or thirty years ago.
3) There's no correlation anyone can point to between the increase in "pool instruction" and any widespread increase in pool playing ability (if there is one).
Y
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1) Most have had instruction one way or another. Do you know what a strong player is?
2) Even 20 or 30 years ago, they were getting lessons. Maybe you should have.
3) Ever been to valley forge?
 
ChicagoRJ said:
GetMeThere said:

(really, all those career minor league baseball players who can't hit major league pitching.....how much more determined could they be
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Most of your post is about other sports. I'm specifically talking only about pool. I've seen ALL SORTS of people play pool really amazingly well--even old, fat, and badly out of shape people. The physical requirements of pool are not great.

Regarding McCready: his father "teaching him" is (probably) something much different from the experience of "instruction" as it's being sold nowadays. I don't suppose you're now going to tell me that his father was a "certified SPF instructor" are you? From the Diliberto story I read, McCready was actually SLEEPING at the pool hall--which doesn't suggest much about his father being a good and supportive influence on him.

And, as I've tried to suggest in other threads, I'm not a big buyer of the "phenom" tale/myth in pool. Sure, some people take to it quicker than others, but, unlike some other sports or talents (math and chess, for example) there's not much good evidence I've seen for pool being a "prodigy" class of activity. Pool is a relatively simple game which kids can get quite good at quite quickly IF they happen to be really interested in it.

The evidence I've seen suggests that, at least up nearing the pro level, the key determining factor for how well someone plays is their motivation and determination to play well--including an abiding interest that keeps them at the table for long hours.

Although it's clear to me that some players (Earl, and Ronnie O'Sullivan come to mind) have some special sauce that others don't. But those players have been and continue to be beaten when their special sauce doesn't happen to be working that day.
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.......................................... no need for this post.
 
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I've been fortunate enough to get lessons from many instructors. Although I've never officially been to "Pool School," I have had the pleasure of spending time with RandyG twice: at the BCA expo and recently in Frederick. If there's one thing I can say about Randy, he has a GIFT for teaching. He has a certain charisma that makes you want to learn from him.

I think lessons are always worth the money.

I've found that each instructor I've worked with (Ron Vitello, Hal Houle, Stan Shuffett, Joe Tucker, Allen Hopkins, Mike Sigel, Tom Simpson, Blackjack, and RandyG) each have their own content and skill set. Furthermore, each person had their own niche of information that was exquisite (for a lack of a better word). Each is a piece to a puzzle, imo.

I think it's good policy to see as many top instructors as you can afford. Get all the information you can --- even if you have to travel. Once your game gets to the point where small improvements are hard to come by, it's probably best you settle in with a "coach," or someone who knows your game intimately well.

Dave
 
Scott Lee said:
Brian...You're right, and that's what GetMeThere apparently doesn't get. To become 'the best' requires many things (natural talent among them). Most important is giving up having a normal life to completely dedicate yourself to nothing but pool. Sadly, the majority of the people who have gone that route, that have ended up great players, in most cases, have nothing to show for it, other than great skill. Unfortunately, right or wrong, that alone doesn't guarantee you a living in this sport.

As several others have said, lessons are only worth it if you're willing to do the work afterwards. If you are willing, there is much to ge gained. Even champions have come through pool school, and learned new things.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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One of my personal quotes and a favorite.... "You can glean a little from anyone in life"

Jay Siegel
NYC
 
btoneill said:
I'll also add that spending a couple hours playing pool with Blackjack, I also learned a lot! He gave me some of the best advice on pool strategy that I've ever received! My 14.1 and 9 ball games are MUCH better after meeting him!

Brian
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I learned more from Blackjack than almost anyone on azb. His 14.1 posts are the best. His mental game lecture is really, really good too. He's another guy that is a gifted teacher.

Another amazing teacher I forgot to mention is CJ Wiley. He and I had an EMAIL conversation and at the end of the email thread, I now see pool differently. How good is THAT?

Dave
 
SpiderWebComm said:
He and I had an EMAIL conversation and at the end of the email thread, I now see pool differently. How good is THAT?
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I don't know. How good is it?

I wonder if people are confused about my posts and believe that I'm trying to convey that one should learn to play pool as a hermit.

On the contrary, any normal person will learn whatever they can from whomever they can. My argument is against a rather new cultural phenomenon of "teachers for everything," and what seems like, all of a sudden, people being ready to see themselves as helpless and in need on constant guidance and hand-holding from every neighborhood "consultant" who wants to put his name in the yellow pages.

Few seem to realize that there's NO HISTORICAL PRECEDENT for this. It's like a new fad. Masters of old (in almost any discipline) spent years of hard work achieving mastery (and indeed, if they did "work under a master" it was usually sweeping floors!). Now people expect to be able to buy mastery--and from just any schmuck who claims to offer it for sale.

The surest route to playing well in pool is motivated and intelligent practice--the more the better. If it COULD be bought we'd probably all buy it....and then stick it in the attic when we got tired of it.
 
Well the reason I asked was this: I feel like I've learned all I can on my own. I ran around with Charlie Bryant for awhile I love him to death but he is boring. He taught me how to break. Jump shots, kicking methods ( which I simplified) all those numbers he through at me made my head hurt.
Learned a little from Jeff Melton. Not much. He's pretty stingy. And I have the privilege of watching good players almost every weekend. Chip, Joey Gray etc. They never went to "pool School" but they learned early and had a good mentor (James Walden)
I'm a 7 in Apa 8 ball and fluctuate between 8-9 in 9-ball.
I realize that my mental game is terrible and my cue ball control needs fine tuned. Ive never done drills. Just rack balls, break and try to run out. I've made a lot of money playing pool but from carnies and just you avg. Barflys.
Now I live in Lawton OK. They area Apa flooded and there's absolutely no gamble here at all. I even opened my own poolroom just so I'd have a decent place to play. Started a tour so I could watch good pool and try my damndest to promote this sport I love so much.
Well I'll hush. Hope everyone has a Merry Christmas and a safe and happy new year
 
GetMeThere said:
I don't know. How good is it?

I wonder if people are confused about my posts and believe that I'm trying to convey that one should learn to play pool as a hermit.

On the contrary, any normal person will learn whatever they can from whomever they can. My argument is against a rather new cultural phenomenon of "teachers for everything," and what seems like, all of a sudden, people being ready to see themselves as helpless and in need on constant guidance and hand-holding from every neighborhood "consultant" who wants to put his name in the yellow pages.

Few seem to realize that there's NO HISTORICAL PRECEDENT for this. It's like a new fad. Masters of old (in almost any discipline) spent years of hard work achieving mastery (and indeed, if they did "work under a master" it was usually sweeping floors!). Now people expect to be able to buy mastery--and from just any schmuck who claims to offer it for sale.

The surest route to playing well in pool is motivated and intelligent practice--the more the better. If it COULD be bought we'd probably all buy it....and then stick it in the attic when we got tired of it.
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It's hard to believe you would suggest getting a lesson from a good qualified instructor is a "fad."

Motivated practice, as you suggest, will get you nowhere unless you know what the hell you're practicing. You act like pool lessons are NEW; pool lessons from instructors are as old as pool itself.

No one is saying you shouldn't apprentice underneath a master player if given the opportunity. For the rest of the 99% of us, getting a qualified lesson is worth more than watching a good player.
 
Long way from where you started

GetMeThere said:
I wonder if people are confused about my posts and believe that I'm trying to convey that one should learn to play pool as a hermit.

On the contrary, any normal person will learn whatever they can from whomever they can. My argument is against a rather new cultural phenomenon of "teachers for everything," and what seems like, all of a sudden, people being ready to see themselves as helpless and in need on constant guidance and hand-holding from every neighborhood "consultant" who wants to put his name in the yellow pages.

And your point is...? You really have a poor outlook on life if you believe that to be the majority of people. Of course I have no empirical evidence but neither do you. Certainly there are some people in that situation and I don't believe that this has happened all of a sudden. It is simply called specialization, no matter the endeavor. As the knowledge base increases so does the specialization.

Few seem to realize that there's NO HISTORICAL PRECEDENT for this. It's like a new fad. Masters of old (in almost any discipline) spent years of hard work achieving mastery (and indeed, if they did "work under a master" it was usually sweeping floors!). Now people expect to be able to buy mastery--and from just any schmuck who claims to offer it for sale.

Once again you generalize that people expect to buy mastery. I think completely opposite, or at least I will say that most people when hiring an instructor or specialist is for the knowledge they have. I won't disagree with you that there are certainly some poor instructors in any field, usually not because they don't have the knowledge base, but because they don't know how to teach that knowledge. BTW, those instructors are usually not in the business long. Certainly, you have to agree that any pool instructor that has been teaching successfully for any number of years must be imparting knowledge to the student.
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Let me sum this up for everyone and bring this thread to a close. In any endeavor, Instructors are for gaining knowledge, Mastery of that knowledge is up to the student.

GMT - you get the last word and I am gone from this thread.
 
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