The inevitable result of "excessive skill" in a handicapped league

I like the APA format. It made me play harder. If I am a better player than someone else then I have to win 6 games to their 3 or 4 or whatever the match up is.
In the other league formats where you play one game against another, the better player will win most of the time in a one game race.
It’s not that fun or challenging to beat a less skilled player in a 1 game race. Granted anything can happen in a 1 game race, but most of the time the better player wins.

To me the APA handicap is set up as organize gambling. Rather than arguing about a spot and who gets what, the APA has it set up for you. A better player usually spots another player when playing for $$$$. So what’s wrong with that in league?
I’ve found it more challenging that I have to win more games in order to win. Who cares if there is so called “sandbagging”. I’ve found that most of the people who talk about sandbagging really aren’t as good as they claim. And I have no problem playing someone who claims to be a sandbagger; because in my opinion, if you have to sandbag to win then you are a looser anyway. If you are really that good, prove it.

As I’ve always said, league pool is supposed to be for fun and some competition and if you are in it for the money, then you need to get better paying job.
 
Not sure what a "looser" is but the baggers are out there. The last two weeks we played in our 9ball leage our opponents had a 3 against whom we had noone who could stand a chance. We had to throw our 3 out there to get slaughtered. The first playoff week we were down 30-10 after two matches. We then played 8-7-1 and won the match only because their 3 who played our 1 puked all over himself. If he hadn't choked we were doomed. Last night I got raised to an 8, so our team was no longer competetive. I will NOT start a new team to get our LO more money so my apa 9ball run is finished. Noone on our team is under handicapped even one number so we stand no chance and are purely donating our money to the LO. Sorry for resurrecting this thread that needs to die along with the apa. I needed to vent.
 
Excuse my spelling/ typing error. I guess you are perfect and never make an error. All you sound like is a person with sour grapes attitude.
Good for you on leaving APA, they'll be better off without your bad arritude.
 
JolietJames said:
Not sure what a "looser" is but the baggers are out there. The last two weeks we played in our 9ball leage our opponents had a 3 against whom we had noone who could stand a chance. We had to throw our 3 out there to get slaughtered. The first playoff week we were down 30-10 after two matches. We then played 8-7-1 and won the match only because their 3 who played our 1 puked all over himself. If he hadn't choked we were doomed. Last night I got raised to an 8, so our team was no longer competetive. I will NOT start a new team to get our LO more money so my apa 9ball run is finished. Noone on our team is under handicapped even one number so we stand no chance and are purely donating our money to the LO. Sorry for resurrecting this thread that needs to die along with the apa. I needed to vent.
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Sounds like that 3 is going to be moving up at some point. The big question to ask is, how many matches has that 3 played? It's pretty tough to properly handicap someone who has played maybe 4 matches, especially if they put up strong players against them. Or, maybe that person is very streaky.

My wife has been called a sand bagger many times. The fact is, some nights she plays 9-Ball like a 4, other nights she plays like a 1. Her last 9-Ball SL was a 2. In 8-Ball she's a 3. Some nights she plays like a really good 4 and can beat most 4's. Other nights she can't make a ball and loses 2-0 to an SL2. That is why she is a 3! Her winning percentage is around 50%.

Also, this is the beginning of the APA session. If you are "properly" sandbagging you won't be killing people at the beginning of a session. You would be barely winning against people of the same or one higher rank.

And since pool is such a mental game, I've had people play my team and play better against us than anyone else. They really want to win when they play us for some unknown reason and you see their best come out. I've seen 4's play like 6's against us and I've watched them play other weeks and they play just like a 4. One team in particular last session we played them 4 times. They won 16-4 (5-0, 4-1, 4-1, 3-2) across the 4 matches. They did NOT win the division nor the playoffs. So far this session we have played them twice, and it's 5-5 (2-3,3-2).

Just my ranting about someones rant :)

Brian
 
JolietJames said:
Not sure what a "looser" is but the baggers are out there. The last two weeks we played in our 9ball leage our opponents had a 3 against whom we had noone who could stand a chance. We had to throw our 3 out there to get slaughtered. The first playoff week we were down 30-10 after two matches. We then played 8-7-1 and won the match only because their 3 who played our 1 puked all over himself. If he hadn't choked we were doomed. Last night I got raised to an 8, so our team was no longer competetive. I will NOT start a new team to get our LO more money so my apa 9ball run is finished. Noone on our team is under handicapped even one number so we stand no chance and are purely donating our money to the LO. Sorry for resurrecting this thread that needs to die along with the apa. I needed to vent.
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"Noone on our team is under handicapped even one number so we stand no chance" - and you played two playoff rounds? There's something contradictory in that.
 
APA Operator said:
You do, unless your last name is really "stroke"...
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no I don't and that is my point , if however I was a representative of such organization I would have no problem with that,

However at the risk of players moving up mysteriously I would with hold that info if I were a league player



1
 
Yes APA, we played two playoff rounds. We tied for fourth in the session. In the first playoff round we were hill hill and the other team's 3 choked and puked all over himself against our 1, who ended up winning in about 30 innings. Perhaps I should define what I call competetive. A team with a reasonable chance to win the division. If a team stays in the middle of the pack every session and misses playoffs -which will happen finishing in the middle, they are not competetive. Our team has been together for 5 sessions but this session three of us got raised.
As far as the 3s being baggers goes I call them that by watching them play. Sure I have seen them miss balls but when I see a 3 using inside english, playing the CB 3 rails for shape on the next ball or drawing nearly the length of the table, their ABILITY is above that of a sl3 player. I know they get their losses in during the session so they can let it out at the end. No team gets to vegas without doing that -Chicago is a tough area. In my mind 3s shouldn't know what inside english is, let alone use it to run out a rack. Parhaps my opinion is incorrect. I'm judging by the 3s I've had on all my previous teams.
Sorry about the looser comment Over, I was mad and lashing out at innocent victims yesterday. My apologies, I can be a jerk.
 
JolietJames said:
As far as the 3s being baggers goes I call them that by watching them play. Sure I have seen them miss balls but when I see a 3 using inside english, playing the CB 3 rails for shape on the next ball or drawing nearly the length of the table, their ABILITY is above that of a sl3 player.
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JJ,

I can do you one BETTER! My 9-ball team has got two women on it that are SL2's. The are both in their 50's, fairly new to pool, and would be lucky to make three balls in a row if you gave them ball-in-hand. True SL2's to say the least. In fact, not that long ago they were BOTH SL1's.

One night we were the visiting team against a team that had two young men that were also SL2's (I think you know where this is going). When I put both of my SL2's up that night, they countered with their "SL2's". It was a total massacre. This one young man (early to mid 20's) was banking, shot a carom shot w/o a timeout, drawing length of table, played two and three rail position, and shot and made at least three combination shots. He won his match 19-1 (after he purposely dogged a few shots to run his inning count up. Funny how they can "miss" a shot without leaving ANYTHING for my SL2 to shoot at isn't it?) Anyway it was way too obvious that this kid should have been at least a SL5, maybe even a 6, he was that good of a player. After the nights matches were over, myself and two of my teammates were finishing our drinks and watching him play 8-ball against his team captain (a SL6). He broke-and-ran the first rack and won the next game in two innings :mad:. Now I don't care what ANYONE says, ain't no SL2 anywhere has any business running out a rack of 8-ball and doing it as deftly as this kid did it.

This kid was not new to the APA. He had already played 11 matches in the session (I don't know if it was his first ever session or not). I DID mark dogged shots as defensive. I did report him to the LO. Guess what? He got raised to a rip-roaring SL3 the next week. Whoopity-Doo. He's still gonna wipe the floor against anyone he plays in APA (if he chooses to on any particular night).

Btw, their OTHER SL2 (a man about in his mid to late 20's) wasn't no slouch either. He shot like a strong 4/weak 5. Won his match 20-0 :(.

Not trying to rant here, just trying to 1-up JolietJames :grin:!! But you can see why I cannot take the APA too seriously and why some people just get totally fed-up with it and get out. It p*sses me off that people have to be such d*ckheads about manipulating the system, but it ain't gonna change anytime soon (if ever). I just let it roll off my back like rainwater and go on and socialize, telling my teammates to just have fun and do the very best that you can.

Maniac
 
I can appreciate your frustration. If there's a 3 using spin to get shape like you mention, you should contact you Operator and provide details on this player. Is this player fairly new to APA? I would have also checked their ID to make sure that player was the 3 they claimed to be playing. Years ago, I caught a guy who was playing as another person. It was their 5 claiming to be their 3. When I saw him playing, I was like - no way. It turned out he wasn't their 3, but actually a 5. Since we didn't really know them that well we check their ID. This team got kicked out of the league.
But if a 3 is using English to get shape, team captains should be reporting this to their operator. Input from players about players to the person running any league can help get handicaps to appropriate levels.
 
Yeah, I've seen the switch made before too. No, these 3s are who they say they are. What's really bad is those two 3s played one another a few weeks ago. The guy who plays 3 rail shape and uses inside english whenever I would (sl8) wiped the walls with the girl who could be a VERY strong 4. To me, that makes him a strong 5 at least. If he plays as a 5, I feel I have a reasonable chance to outrun the spot. As a 3, noone in that division has a chance to even keep it to a 12-8 loss. That would be a win in my book. Hey, that was me fifteen years ago in 8ball -an unbeatable 5. Then I was on a team that wanted to go places and we all played our hearts out all the way through citywide where I got raised to a 6 -which was fine really. I retired from 8ball that session because I will never form a new team to stay under the 23 rule (we had a 7 too). Thanks for sharing your story Maniac, I knew I had company, but I feel better anyway.
 
Reading some of these stories, I got to thinking about what i might do in such a situation.

Just a silly thought, but I'm betting that in my home room I could set up a camera somewhat innocuously. I would think that a tape (tape, jeeze, how old am I :eek: a recording, heh) of one of these guys playing would be quite damning, to say the least. If the LO wouldn't do anything about it, you would then have a case to send to St.Louis. That would, of course, not endear you to your LO. But it would be an option. And if your LO thought that was a possibility (perhaps without coming out and saying it in so many words, of course) that might get you some results.

More I think about it, it might be fun to put the camera up and in the open, and see what they do then. If you're one that enjoys conflict. :grin:
 
JolietJames said:
Yes APA, we played two playoff rounds. We tied for fourth in the session. In the first playoff round we were hill hill and the other team's 3 choked and puked all over himself against our 1, who ended up winning in about 30 innings. Perhaps I should define what I call competetive. A team with a reasonable chance to win the division. If a team stays in the middle of the pack every session and misses playoffs -which will happen finishing in the middle, they are not competetive. Our team has been together for 5 sessions but this session three of us got raised.
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In those 5 sessions, how many times did your team miss the playoffs?

I'm struggling to understand what you're saying. You just seem to be contradicting yourself. Your first playoff opponent had a 3 that was unbeatable, so you "sacrifice" your 3 instead of your 1, who later beats the other 3 on that team, but only because that 3 choked. I wouldn't find it unusual for a 3 to choke. You say you have to have cheaters in Chicago to get to nationals, but if your league operator raises players he's "making it his mission to raise everyone high enough that they can no longer play on teams with their friends. This is done in hopes that those players will now get more people involved in pool and create their own teams thus generating more income for the LOs." That comes from post #14 in this thread.

Maybe the LO is just trying to get skill levels up where they belong, so you don't HAVE to have cheaters on your team to make it to nationals. Perhaps the LO is raising the wrong people, and this is what has you frustrated. Have you spoken to the LO about this? Have you pointed out the sandbaggers to him?
 
There is a slight misunderstanding I believe. Yes, there are a couple sandbaggers in our league -as in all others. By saying our team will no longer be competetive, I was stating we no longer have anyone who is very strong at their number. We have a 1 who misses ball in hand more than she makes it, and 5 who cannot win. The LO told us the poor guy was one loss away from going back to a 4, but he has since lost three of his last four and is still a 5. He's regressed and I have my doubts he will win much even as a 4 these days. That combined with now having two 8s on the team makes it extremely difficult to finish better than in the middle where we won't get anywhere. We were making the playoffs 50% of the time prior to handicap raises. With the players at their current numbers we will not make it. It's no big deal I guess. ACS has moved in and we can all form teams with our friends in that league.
 
JolietJames said:
ACS has moved in and we can all form teams with our friends in that league.
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ACS used to be big in Minneapolis, now it's basically dead here. It isn't helping things that ACS has scheduled their 2011 Nationals to overlap with the BCAPL Nationals...

Brian
 
JolietJames said:
. By saying our team will no longer be competetive, I was stating we no longer have anyone who is very strong at their number.
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This is the very reason that our 8-ball team will never finish anywhere but the middle of the pack or further down. In APA, you have that SL4 that can be a "true" SL4 or a "weak" 4 (one who is probably close to dropping a skill level), or a "strong" 4 (one who is close to being raised a skill level). We have no players that shoot above (or wa-a-a-ay above :wink:) their skill level. We have a team full of "true" and "weak" skill leveled players. In a handicapped league, I have the opinion that you need a least two members (the more the merrier :grin:) of your team to shoot above your level on any given night to have a successful night as far as winning goes. We don't have that kind of team. We seem to shoot at about our level or slightly under. We have that "every-once-in-a-while" great match from a player sometimes, but not often enough. My 9-ball team is beginning to reach the same plateau too as we have had two of our players raised in the last session and another that is probably close to moving up also. It is what it is, so I have no complaints. Just play, have a couple mixed drinks, and have some fun with my friends!!!

Maniac
 
i understand your frustration with the handicap system joliet james. i have played pool for 35 years. never joined a league until 6 years ago. i was a 7 in bca and a 6 in tap. quit playing for 2 years. had an injury where i have no feeling in half my hand an part of my arm.last summer i decided to get back into the game i love even though i cant shoot like i used too. now its apa here. i entered as a 3 as a new player. we play dj. thats 8 and 9 ball. at end of 1st session i am a 4 in both. 3 weeks into 2nd session i am raised to a 5 in 9 ball. i lost every match the rest of the season. that is 10 games in a row. i am still a 4 in 8 ball even tho i have a record of 8 wins and 3 losses. i just cant seem to get past the extra points i have to give up. i talked to my lo during our 8 ball top gun tourney ( that i won by the way ) about my 9 ball handicap. he said it was based on my overall record . i dont buy that. i think it was based on the 1st 2 matches last season where i beat a 2 that only 6 points off me and a 3 got 10 points. looking back i shoulda sandbagged those 2 games. just kidding there. i am going to play my best game every match whether i face a 1 or an 8. i just started my 3rd session last sunday. i won 8 ball an lost the 9 ball again ! played the same guy in both. he is a 4 in both and i am still a 4 in 8 and a 5 in 9 ball. i only lost by 2 points in 9 ball so its looking better. dont know if i can ever play as good as i did before the injury but i am having fun playing again. the best to you joliet james whether you join acs or stay in apa. just have fun playing.
 
JolietJames said:
There is a slight misunderstanding I believe. Yes, there are a couple sandbaggers in our league -as in all others. By saying our team will no longer be competetive, I was stating we no longer have anyone who is very strong at their number. We have a 1 who misses ball in hand more than she makes it, and 5 who cannot win. The LO told us the poor guy was one loss away from going back to a 4, but he has since lost three of his last four and is still a 5. He's regressed and I have my doubts he will win much even as a 4 these days. That combined with now having two 8s on the team makes it extremely difficult to finish better than in the middle where we won't get anywhere. We were making the playoffs 50% of the time prior to handicap raises. With the players at their current numbers we will not make it. It's no big deal I guess. ACS has moved in and we can all form teams with our friends in that league.
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Ok, I got it now. For the record, I don't think the LO is raising players to try to force splits. I think he's working on that "Chicago is tough" thing. I don't think he should be telling anyone how close they are to going up/down, though. In the wrong hands, information like that can be used to manipulate (by no means am I saying your team does anything like that, I don't know you at all), so it's best not to give that info out to anyone. Besides, there's no way the LO could know that a player will go down on a loss, given that the player could actually shoot very well and still lose. For example, and this is an exaggeration, a 5 could win the lag and run off 37 points, then never get back to the table. That 5 isn't going down on that loss.

Good luck playing with your friends in the ACS league. Your friends must all be pretty good, huh?
 
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