PRO ONE DVD: Answering Questions
- Thread starter stan shuffett
- Start date
Nope, probably not the best choice, but that's not to say it isn't often done that way. Ignoring CTE for a second, I imagine tiny little tweaks to the stick line are made on a high percentage of shots after the player is down. If a large alteration is needed, sure -- stand up and start over. But is it even possible to "see" real fine tweaks needed while standing?
Right. That's why we're talking about it as one of several possible ways to introduce an adjustment or "feel" -- because it's outside the formal prescription.
That's correct if the point of the tip's initial offset with respect to the OB vertical axis is to help you get the 'V' onto the CB-GB line. That's certainly possible, and perhaps quite probable. But I don't much like it. I don't find it to be a very elegant solution to the problem, especially when there are perfectly good CTE and Edge-to-Whatever lines loafing about that really should be put to use before they run amok (idle end points and all that).
But, John, that is the prescription on how to get on the CB-GB line -- sight the visuals, move in perpendicular to the face of the CB from that vantage point with the half-tip offset and using the proper bridge length -- and voila, your "V" supposedly is on the CB-GB line. Then pivot and shoot.
Visuals are the CTE/Pro-1 Rosetta Stone, without it you are doomed.
You need to keep both the CTE line and the secondary aim line simultaniously in sight which is difficult for one with a dominant eye like me. Flicking my focus back and forth, left and right.
I have ordered the solution to my problem from Toshiba who has invented the stereoscopic monocular so that I can keep perfect simultanious visual feed back from both aim lines with my dominant eye.
Hallelujah!!!!
Can I get an Amen!!:thumbup:
You need to keep both the CTE line and the secondary aim line simultaniously in sight which is difficult for one with a dominant eye like me. Flicking my focus back and forth, left and right.
I have ordered the solution to my problem from Toshiba who has invented the stereoscopic monocular so that I can keep perfect simultanious visual feed back from both aim lines with my dominant eye.
Hallelujah!!!!
Can I get an Amen!!:thumbup:
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How does the phrase "it is a visual system" answer for you the question of how it works?
What do you mean by "visualizing these points"? What do you see that tells you your eyes are in the correct position for the shot? For instance, is it when you can sight directly along both lines without changing the position of your head?
pj
chgo
Visuals are the CTE/Pro-1 Rosetta Stone, without it you are doomed.
You need to keep both the CTE line and the secondary aim line simultaniously in sight which is difficult for one with a dominant eye like me. Flicking my focus back and forth, left and right.
I have ordered the solution to my problem from Toshiba who has invented the stereoscopic monocular so that I can keep perfect simultanious visual feed back from both aim lines with my dominant eye.
Hallelujah!!!!
Can I get an Amen!!:thumbup:
View attachment 176949
Amen, I say, Amen brother E. :thumbup: Nice! LOL
Best,
Mike
Mike,
This is what we need. Dialogue and asking the right questions. Peace, Cte brother. :grin:
Best,
Mike
It is the NaySayers Special Day.
Now that's just about the kind of thing you would expect a Naysayer to accept.
Visuals are the CTE/Pro-1 Rosetta Stone, without it you are doomed.
You need to keep both the CTE line and the secondary aim line simultaniously in sight which is difficult for one with a dominant eye like me. Flicking my focus back and forth, left and right.
I have ordered the solution to my problem from Toshiba who has invented the stereoscopic monocular so that I can keep perfect simultanious visual feed back from both aim lines with my dominant eye.
Hallelujah!!!!
Can I get an Amen!!:thumbup:
View attachment 176949
Now that's just about the kind of thing you would expect a Naysayer to accept.
ok brother, Stans seems to think you really understand the visuals of the system. I think you should post more about it.
Visuals are the CTE/Pro-1 Rosetta Stone, without it you are doomed.
You need to keep both the CTE line and the secondary aim line simultaniously in sight which is difficult for one with a dominant eye like me. Flicking my focus back and forth, left and right.
I have ordered the solution to my problem from Toshiba who has invented the stereoscopic monocular so that I can keep perfect simultanious visual feed back from both aim lines with my dominant eye.
Hallelujah!!!!
Can I get an Amen!!:thumbup:
View attachment 176949
No different than any other system, so good luck with that!!
I am actually looking for people like you that can use the system well to tell me what you see. Each of us uses our eyes differently. There is no same place where the A or C reference point changes to a B reference point for all shooters. Why?
For example, Spidey said you can pivot from any direction to pocket balls. Stan told me this also. I think you said you pivoted from only one direction before Pro One. I pivot from only one direction with 90/90. How are these visual alignments different from traditional Cte alignments?
I have also figured out a big part of the stick aiming (Ultimate Aiming) visuals that employ aiming at a contact point. Why do I mention this? Well, isn't aiming at a contact point a version of ghost ball? That's how you get the contact point, after all. And we are trying to tie in the exactness of Cte. Linking it to ghost ball aiming would do this.
I have found similarities in the way the Cte visuals share common points with the stick aiming methods. I posted the findings a couple of weeks ago on another thread and heard crickets. This what I have been trying to get help with, but I have had to take a roundabout approach with all the resistance.
Anyways, Champ, greenie for your kind words.
Best,
Mike
I don't mind answering these questions, thus far Patrick has been polite towards me at least. I'm just trying to explore this along with several others here, and had I not tried it and had success I'd potentially be nodding my head in agreement with the other side of the camp...
For me, my initial playing with these concepts a few years ago yielded success with only a small range of shots, and for anything else it was easier for me just to aim my old way. That was probably a combination of me not knowing enough about the systems or adjustments and not putting enough time in. This time around, armed with more information and graphical examples from the DVD and here on the forum, I guess I just got it.
I'm still sort of new at this, but I'll try to be descriptive of what I do or see. I'm pretty good now at quickly knowing which point to aim at and which pivot to use. So the first thing I do is get in position, offset to the CTE line in my normal shooting stance but upright, so that once I lock in to the line I can bend over and pivot without moving my head around or having to shuffle my feet.
I sight down the CTE line, and then I shift slightly as needed to pick up the secondary line as well, whether that is A/C or B. I'd have to verify this at the table, been sick and haven't shot for a week, but I believe for some shots I instantly feel like I can lock in to both lines, for others I feel like I have to shift slightly to pick up the secondary aim line or to be able to see both lines. For me at least, if anything I use the CTE line as a starting point and tend to lock in more on the secondary line, I'm not always that focused on the CTE line once I initially find it, maybe I should be.
In my opinion, the CTE line gets me pretty close to where I need to be, the reference or secondary aim line gets me more locked in and sort of fine tunes everything, and unless I'm wrong I can typically still see the CTE line once I get the secondary aim line established. I believe you could just find the secondary line and be fine, but I think without the consistent approach of starting from the CTE line it might be more difficult to accurately align your body and bridge correctly. Maybe this is where the other CTE'ers can correct me if I'm wrong in my thinking or execution, but it's been working for me.
Once I feel locked in on that visual, I can literally look down at the cue ball from that point forward in the process and never look up at the object ball or pocket again. Now in practice I do, just to visually verify the line etc., but it's not necessary. I pivot into place (either manually or Pro One style) and my resulting alignment just automagically is on the ghost ball line, I take a few practice strokes and shoot.
So yes, I guess once I feel locked in on the visual, my head and body are set and all I do is bend over into the shot along that same line or plane and pivot and shoot. And for me, this seems to work on a wide range of shots, and the same CTE line and secondary line and pivot do seem to align me correctly for a range of shots, not just 5 or 10 specific cut angles. I haven't proven to myself if this is a visual trick of some sort or if there is some sort of geometry at play, I'm still frankly struggling with that but not giving it as much thought as I thought I would.
I tried showing this to my playing partner of a few years, he plays about my speed. He did not understand it, and clearly didn't want to discuss it, even after I was firing in shots from all over. His comment was why would you want to aim away from the shot and pivot to get to where you just need to be in the first place? Trust me, same thing I thought as well. For me, the consistency of starting from the CTE line, the increased focus on aiming, and the results I'm seeing has boosted my shot making confidence. I don't think it's a fluke, and I also get why it's difficult to understand or describe sometimes. Still exploring it and practicing with it and looking for information or confirmation here on the forum as well.
Sorry for the long post, but hope I answered your question.
Scott
I don't mind answering these questions, thus far Patrick has been polite towards me at least. I'm just trying to explore this along with several others here, and had I not tried it and had success I'd potentially be nodding my head in agreement with the other side of the camp...
For me, my initial playing with these concepts a few years ago yielded success with only a small range of shots, and for anything else it was easier for me just to aim my old way. That was probably a combination of me not knowing enough about the systems or adjustments and not putting enough time in. This time around, armed with more information and graphical examples from the DVD and here on the forum, I guess I just got it.
I'm still sort of new at this, but I'll try to be descriptive of what I do or see. I'm pretty good now at quickly knowing which point to aim at and which pivot to use. So the first thing I do is get in position, offset to the CTE line in my normal shooting stance but upright, so that once I lock in to the line I can bend over and pivot without moving my head around or having to shuffle my feet.
I sight down the CTE line, and then I shift slightly as needed to pick up the secondary line as well, whether that is A/C or B. I'd have to verify this at the table, been sick and haven't shot for a week, but I believe for some shots I instantly feel like I can lock in to both lines, for others I feel like I have to shift slightly to pick up the secondary aim line or to be able to see both lines. For me at least, if anything I use the CTE line as a starting point and tend to lock in more on the secondary line, I'm not always that focused on the CTE line once I initially find it, maybe I should be.
In my opinion, the CTE line gets me pretty close to where I need to be, the reference or secondary aim line gets me more locked in and sort of fine tunes everything, and unless I'm wrong I can typically still see the CTE line once I get the secondary aim line established. I believe you could just find the secondary line and be fine, but I think without the consistent approach of starting from the CTE line it might be more difficult to accurately align your body and bridge correctly. Maybe this is where the other CTE'ers can correct me if I'm wrong in my thinking or execution, but it's been working for me.
Once I feel locked in on that visual, I can literally look down at the cue ball from that point forward in the process and never look up at the object ball or pocket again. Now in practice I do, just to visually verify the line etc., but it's not necessary. I pivot into place (either manually or Pro One style) and my resulting alignment just automagically is on the ghost ball line, I take a few practice strokes and shoot.
So yes, I guess once I feel locked in on the visual, my head and body are set and all I do is bend over into the shot along that same line or plane and pivot and shoot. And for me, this seems to work on a wide range of shots, and the same CTE line and secondary line and pivot do seem to align me correctly for a range of shots, not just 5 or 10 specific cut angles. I haven't proven to myself if this is a visual trick of some sort or if there is some sort of geometry at play, I'm still frankly struggling with that but not giving it as much thought as I thought I would.
I tried showing this to my playing partner of a few years, he plays about my speed. He did not understand it, and clearly didn't want to discuss it, even after I was firing in shots from all over. His comment was why would you want to aim away from the shot and pivot to get to where you just need to be in the first place? Trust me, same thing I thought as well. For me, the consistency of starting from the CTE line, the increased focus on aiming, and the results I'm seeing has boosted my shot making confidence. I don't think it's a fluke, and I also get why it's difficult to understand or describe sometimes. Still exploring it and practicing with it and looking for information or confirmation here on the forum as well.
Sorry for the long post, but hope I answered your question.
Scott
I can't believe you wrote what you wrote. Jezzums peats, I read every single word. I could easily have written what you said, word for word. Most every shot is "dialed in" when you complete the CTE/Pro One correctly. There are FEW shots that aren't "dialed in".
There are two anomalies that occur for me. One is, on some shots, the object ball looks like it is being cut too much (A.P.)* I can almost sense that they are perfect and have to force myself to accept the "new" visual picture that I am not used to. Almost always, the object ball finds the perfect center of the pocket, even on steep cuts.
The second thing is (A.P.)* sometimes a shot will just look wrong. When that happens I get up off the shot and start over, most of the time, just setting my pivot point on the opposite side of the CTE line and pivoting from the opposite direction. Usually, this will get the nod from the little man inside.
Neither of these two anomalies bother me. When I think about it, I have gotten up off shots B.CTE/PRO One when they look wrong and stayed down on shots where I felt the ball would still fall and this is nothing different.
Overall, I KNOW that CTE/Pro One has revitalized my mediocre game, giving me an increase in alignment, an increase in focus, an increase in accuracy and in increase in a more confident stroke. I like finding the center of the cue ball and shooting from there, rather than "GUESSING" where to place my bridge hand while shooting contact point to contact point.
The crazy thing is I believe that I am shooting better using contact point to contact point after learning CTE Pro One.
I am not really defensive about CTE/Pro One. I give the naysayers hell on occasion because I don't like the way they disrespect good and decent people. The truth is I don't care who learns CTE/Pro One or what anyone says about it negatively.
The bottom line is it is helping people to become better players. It does my heart good to see others following similar paths and obtaining similar results. The numbers of successful CTE/Pro One users is GROWING AND THEY ARE SHOOTING BETTER POOL. The NaySayers have LOST. Sorry I couldn't help it. :grin-devilish::grin-devilish:
JoeyA
*After Pivot.
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Joey,
Hilarious, the two anomalies occur for me too!!!
Of the shots I miss in practice, I would say a fair percentage is just me making a bad stroke or steering the cue ball because I'm not believing my alignment. There are definitely shots where I swear I'm going to miss, but I'm learning more and more to know the difference between trusting the shot (as in your first case) and resetting to make sure I'm lined up with the correct alignment or pivot (your second example). Some of this is happening because I had a bad habit of aiming fuller on thinner cuts and throwing the ball slightly with english, so now my center ball approach looks wrong. But more and more it's looking right, and that's after only a few weeks.
I continue to experiment with what I perceive to be the angles where the alignments or pivots change and trusting what I'm doing and just putting a good smooth straight stroke on it. Just as when I initially learned to shoot, continued positive and negative experiences will dial things in and further increase my overall confidence.
If I had to put a number to it, I would say my ball pocketing has increased 20% - 25% already, and might go up slightly from there as I continue to work with the system. My overall game is about on par with where it was at my peak, maybe slightly before, which is amazing to me because usually after a layoff it takes me quite a few months of solid play to get back to form. But my increased focus on center ball and simplifying my game (I like to spin the ball a lot, and have a decent stroke, and used to rely on it too much to get me out of trouble...), and now with CTE, I feel I just need some more time to really integrate it with my "old" game and I think I may get to that next level I was always shooting for.
Scott
Hilarious, the two anomalies occur for me too!!!
Of the shots I miss in practice, I would say a fair percentage is just me making a bad stroke or steering the cue ball because I'm not believing my alignment. There are definitely shots where I swear I'm going to miss, but I'm learning more and more to know the difference between trusting the shot (as in your first case) and resetting to make sure I'm lined up with the correct alignment or pivot (your second example). Some of this is happening because I had a bad habit of aiming fuller on thinner cuts and throwing the ball slightly with english, so now my center ball approach looks wrong. But more and more it's looking right, and that's after only a few weeks.
I continue to experiment with what I perceive to be the angles where the alignments or pivots change and trusting what I'm doing and just putting a good smooth straight stroke on it. Just as when I initially learned to shoot, continued positive and negative experiences will dial things in and further increase my overall confidence.
If I had to put a number to it, I would say my ball pocketing has increased 20% - 25% already, and might go up slightly from there as I continue to work with the system. My overall game is about on par with where it was at my peak, maybe slightly before, which is amazing to me because usually after a layoff it takes me quite a few months of solid play to get back to form. But my increased focus on center ball and simplifying my game (I like to spin the ball a lot, and have a decent stroke, and used to rely on it too much to get me out of trouble...), and now with CTE, I feel I just need some more time to really integrate it with my "old" game and I think I may get to that next level I was always shooting for.
Scott
Sure it is. In the end, all aiming is some version of ghostball. The only difference between them is how you find the thing.
Do you remember which thread? I missed it, and would be quite interested in reading it.
John,
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=223087
This post was the thread killer.
It will be easy to find.Best,
Mike
Thanks. Your description is more careful and detailed than just about any other I've read.
Yet it still contains no actual aiming instructions, just a pre-shot alignment routine that can be interpreted pretty variably by different shooters. That doesn't mean you're not making shots with it, it just means the system isn't doing that for you.
If I were you I'd be glad about that because it means that your shotmaking is an ability of yours that this system enables, not just robotic steps that you follow like dance steps painted on the floor.
I don't doubt it seems like that, but I'm sure this isn't true. I'm also sure it can be disproven with careful tests (not the silly stuff that we've seen in videos of AzBers).
I'm sure it seems like that, but I'm also sure the "automagic" part is you, not the system. This can also be proven with careful tests.
I'm sure this is true, and I think it explains more about how this system works than all the other detail (but thanks again for all of it).
pj
chgo
That's consistent with the interpretation of CTE as a pre-shot routine.
pj
chgo