PRO ONE DVD: Answering Questions

[AtLarge]

How do you get a cut angle with no target? How did you manage to align yourself without a cut angle?

By "cut angle" do you mean the angle at which the OB and CB separate after contact?

The actual cut angle achieved with a shot, by standard definition, is the number of degrees the OB is knocked off the line of travel (prior to the collision) of the CB. That is, it is the acute angle between these two lines: (a) the line of travel of the CB prior to the collision and (b) the line of travel of the OB after the collision. As such, it makes no reference at all to a target.

The cut angle needed for a shot is the acute angle between these two lines: (a) the line from center CB to center GB and (b) the line from center GB to the target.

Stan's basic 6 prescriptions are performed, supposedly, without reference to the pocket's location. One of the six is chosen based on the pocket's location.

 

[LAMas]

I believe that Stan allows moving the bridge forward or back from behind the CB always with a 1/2 tip offset pre-pivot. If the tip is 1/2 inch in dia., then the offset is 1/4" (1/2 tip) and the small leg of an isosceles triange; and the distance of the bridge behind the CB, say 12" pre-pivot would be one of the long legs with the other long leg being post pivot.

The acute angle between the two long legs will become numerically smaller as one moves his bridge back, thus changing the path of the CB and cut angle post pivot.

Ya think?

 

[AtLarge]

I believe that Stan allows moving the bridge forward or back from behind the CB always with a 1/2 tip offset pre-pivot. ...

Yes, Stan has 4 recommended pivot lengths or pivot-length ranges, increasing as the CB-OB distance increases.

Edit: plus very short for very close CB-OB distances.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

For the system to work in a pure form, that one angle would have to always be angled toward the pocket, and that's doesn't make sense.

But yet it works.

So there's either something our eye/brain/subconscious unit is very, very good at doing based on the input it's being given, or there is something else at play that no one understands yet.

"Something our eye/brain/subconscious unit is very, very good at doing based on the input it's being given"...

Gee, I wonder what that could be?

Why twist yourself into such logical pretzels trying to avoid the obvious? What's the advantage of denying that it's (cover your eyes if you don't want to hear this) feel?

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

jwpretd:
By "cut angle" do you mean the angle at which the OB and CB separate after contact?

Oy vey...

pj
chgo

 

[Neil]

A while back, I posted a wei table test for proof. If you do that test, you will have your proof of why you get mutliple angles and not just 6. It really is very simple to figure out if you actually go to a table and do it. There is no mystery anymore. It's just that some on here want there to be one, so direct evidence is dismissed. You all just keep on trying to figure out what has already been figured out. Have fun.

 

[champ2107]

"Something our eye/brain/subconscious unit is very, very good at doing based on the input it's being given"...

Gee, I wonder what that could be?

Why twist yourself into such logical pretzels trying to avoid the obvious? What's the advantage of denying that it's (cover your eyes if you don't want to hear this) feel?

pj
chgo

15 year obsession debating cte
10 000 cte posts
owner of a instructional cte dvd and a pool table
Cant get passed the first chapter of the dvd <<< Priceless lol

If you guys respond to his post we will never move on, we have been shooting the system for a while now ,you shoot understand the "visual intelligence" by now.

 

[AtLarge]

A while back, I posted a wei table test for proof. If you do that test, you will have your proof of why you get mutliple angles and not just 6. It really is very simple to figure out if you actually go to a table and do it. There is no mystery anymore. It's just that some on here want there to be one, so direct evidence is dismissed. You all just keep on trying to figure out what has already been figured out. Have fun.

Sorry, Neil, I don't remember your "proof." Please post it again and I'll take a look. And I think you should understand by now that I have taken all this stuff to a table many times.

Here's a wei example for you to explain. These are two shots from Stan's DVD. On mohrt's practice worksheet they are the 6th shot (the 1-ball shot into the upper right pocket with cue ball A) and the 25th shot (the 2-ball shot into the upper left pocket with cue ball B).

The DVD says to use the same alignment-menu choice for both shots -- CB center to OB left edge, secondary alignment point C, and pivot from left to right. The distance between the CB and OB is the same for both shots. The 1-ball shot is 0 degrees -- dead straight. The 2-ball shot is a cut of approximately 20 degrees. How is it possible that the same alignment for these two shots produces such a difference in hit on the two OB's?

CueTable Help

P.S. I posted this over 400 posts ago, and no one commented.

 

[jwpretd]

The actual cut angle achieved with a shot, by standard definition, is the number of degrees the OB is knocked off the line of travel (prior to the collision) of the CB.

Yeah, which means that what you're doing is choosing a cut angle you want to have - "I think I'll shoot a medium-thick cut to the right...." - and then aligning yourself based on that - "... so that means I use CCB-LOBE, RCBE-B, outside left pivot" - is that correct?

 

[Neil]

Sorry, Neil, I don't remember your "proof." Please post it again and I'll take a look. And I think you should understand by now that I have taken all this stuff to a table many times.

Here's a wei example for you to explain. These are two shots from Stan's DVD. On mohrt's practice worksheet they are the 6th shot (the 1-ball shot into the upper right pocket with cue ball A) and the 25th shot (the 2-ball shot into the upper left pocket with cue ball B).

The DVD says to use the same alignment-menu choice for both shots -- CB center to OB left edge, secondary alignment point C, and pivot from left to right. The distance between the CB and OB is the same for both shots. The 1-ball shot is 0 degrees -- dead straight. The 2-ball shot is a cut of approximately 20 degrees. How is it possible that the same alignment for these two shots produces such a difference in hit on the two OB's?

CueTable Help

P.S. I posted this over 400 posts ago, and no one commented.

Who told you they were the same alignment? (don't answer that)

2 ball- cbc to LE, cb RE to OB B. Right pivot ( pivot from the right to center cb)

1 ball- CBC to OBLE, CBRE to OB C. right pivot. OR- CBC to OBLE, CB LE to OB A, left pivot.

 

[champ2107]

sorry i miss read atlarges post, im lost here?

 

[AtLarge]

Yeah, which means that what you're doing is choosing a cut angle you want to have - "I think I'll shoot a medium-thick cut to the right...." - and then aligning yourself based on that - "... so that means I use CCB-LOBE, RCBE-B, outside left pivot" - is that correct?

Sure -- you're specifying a "B/left" menu choice for your cut to the right. So you can do "B/left" with a CB and an OB on any flat surface, because the instructions for "B/left" make no reference to any target. Do it over and over again, and you should get the same (or nearly same) actual cut angle each time.

Then move the two balls to a pool table, keeping them the same distance apart. Now, amazingly, it is claimed that "B/left" with that same CB-OB separation is capable of sending the OB in multiple directions rather than the one you got when you were not aware of any pocket.

Why is that possible? Is it the magic of align & pivot? Is it because the table is 1x2? is it because 45 + 30 +15 = 90? Or is it because of "visual intelligence." And if it's the latter, so what? What's wrong with that?

 

[Neil]

Sorry, Neil, I don't remember your "proof." Please post it again and I'll take a look. And I think you should understand by now that I have taken all this stuff to a table many times.



The 9 and 10 are your two object balls. They are one ball width apart. The two cb's are one ball width apart also. Left cb for the 9, right cb for the 10.

You can see that they are in a straight line, parallel to the rails. The 3 and the 5 are the respective ghost balls for making the 9 and 10. Both shots require the same CTE alingment. Yet, they have to have different angles to make the ball. Each shot is a different angle, agreed? Now, look at the edges of the ghost balls. As you can see, they are also parallel to the rail, yet they produce different angles! Do the CTE, you will be lined right up on the ghost ball on each shot.

Hint- You aren't seeing the same edge as many want to think they are! Each shot produces it's own edge of the ob. If you don't believe that, use striped balls, line up the stripes properly, then sight from each cb to it's respective ob. You will see that you really don't have the same edge.

CueTable Help

 

[champ2107]

lets bring in the banking system now into this discussion and lets really have some fun :thumbup:

 

[AtLarge]

... 2 ball- cbc to LE, cb RE to OB B. Right pivot ( pivot from the right to center cb)

1 ball- CBC to OBLE, CBRE to OB C. right pivot. OR- CBC to OBLE, CB LE to OB A, left pivot.

1-ball:

Stan -- C/left (I'm sure he would say A/right is also a solution here)
Neil -- C/right or A/left
me -- C/left or A/right​

2-ball:

Stan -- C/left
Neil -- B/right
me -- C/right or B/left​

I think you may just have had a "mindo" on the 1-ball, but, in any event, it looks like the visuals can vary from person to person.

 

[AtLarge]

... The 9 and 10 are your two object balls. They are one ball width apart. The two cb's are one ball width apart also. Left cb for the 9, right cb for the 10.

You can see that they are in a straight line, parallel to the rails. The 3 and the 5 are the respective ghost balls for making the 9 and 10. Both shots require the same CTE alingment. Yet, they have to have different angles to make the ball. Each shot is a different angle, agreed?

Yes, different cut angles are needed to "center pocket."

Now, look at the edges of the ghost balls. As you can see, they are also parallel to the rail, yet they produce different angles! Do the CTE, you will be lined right up on the ghost ball on each shot.

No. Fundamental flaw. The bottom edges of the 3-ball and 5-ball would not be the same distance from the rail. As the cut angle gets larger, the GB would be rotated more "down and left." So the bottom edge of the 3-ball is farther from the top rail than is the bottom edge of the 5-ball. You just don't see that due to the limited discrimination of the graphic.

Hint- You aren't seeing the same edge as many want to think they are! Each shot produces it's own edge of the ob. If you don't believe that, use striped balls, line up the stripes properly, then sight from each cb to it's respective ob. You will see that you really don't have the same edge.

Sure it's the same edge for the two shots, if the CB and OB are the same distance apart (as you have them). And if you move the two balls anywhere else on the table (but still the same distance apart), the CTEL to the left side of the OB is still in the same relative position, i.e., you see the same edge.

 

[LAMas]

Sorry, Neil, I don't remember your "proof." Please post it again and I'll take a look. And I think you should understand by now that I have taken all this stuff to a table many times.



The 9 and 10 are your two object balls. They are one ball width apart. The two cb's are one ball width apart also. Left cb for the 9, right cb for the 10.

You can see that they are in a straight line, parallel to the rails. The 3 and the 5 are the respective ghost balls for making the 9 and 10. Both shots require the same CTE alingment. Yet, they have to have different angles to make the ball. Each shot is a different angle, agreed? Now, look at the edges of the ghost balls. As you can see, they are also parallel to the rail, yet they produce different angles! Do the CTE, you will be lined right up on the ghost ball on each shot.

Hint- You aren't seeing the same edge as many want to think they are! Each shot produces it's own edge of the ob. If you don't believe that, use striped balls, line up the stripes properly, then sight from each cb to it's respective ob. You will see that you really don't have the same edge.

CueTable Help

What are the one and four ball and the arrows representing?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Spidey:
If you do X, Y and Z exactly and to the "T" --- and the ball drops, I think you need to start from there and work backwards.

Unless that contradicts common sense, logic and geometry. Then you have to show that you actually do X, Y and Z exactly and to the "T". "It sure as shootin' seems to me like I do that!" isn't proof.

pj
chgo

 

[stan shuffett]

Who told you they were the same alignment? (don't answer that)

2 ball- cbc to LE, cb RE to OB B. Right pivot ( pivot from the right to center cb)

1 ball- CBC to OBLE, CBRE to OB C. right pivot. OR- CBC to OBLE, CB LE to OB A, left pivot.

In reference to post 976. Oops, I should have referenced AtLarge's post, 974.

AtLarge, Very good job once again with your work on CTE/PRO ONE. The 2 shots in question demonstrate quite well the visual nature of CTE/PRO ONE.

CTE/PRO ONE is a VISUAL SYSTEM.

If a player's eyes were positioned exactly the same for each shot, A and B, the results would be identical.

For the 1 ball shot, a player's body is behind the CB with the headed tilted to the right to see the visuals.

For the 2 ball shot, a player's body is clearly much more to the right of the cue ball than for the 1 ball.

The eyes are in different positions for each shot. The proper visuals are easily obtained for each shot. The table can dictate body and eye positioning and even the distance that eyes are from the CB. That is the nature of the rectanglular table.

Actually shot 2 could be played as a stop shot safety as I demoed on the DVD or possibly an iffy 4 rail bank. BUT, one must postion the eyes just as if they were shooting the 1 ball.


Just because a CB and an OB share a common distance and the same visuals does not mean the eyes will be postioned the same way for each shot. Perception is altered with varied eye positions. As I mentioned on the DVD the table will often dicate a player's ball address postion.

Very commendable work, AtLarge! The 2 shots you presented represent a great lesson in CTE/PRO ONE.

Stan

 

[Neil]

What are the one and four ball and the arrows representing?

Just showing that the edges of the balls are even.