Top and Bottom English???? WTH?

["CaliRed".]

Cali-

Good summary. Good graphics.

Question/clarification:

These terms describe the 'hit' on the cb. Once the cb gets where you want it to-the cb may be behaving differently. Hopefully-by design. (eg. stun and draw wear off)

So to be clear and picky-these terms describe the initial hit on the cb-right?

Take care
ps: sent you a PM on another matter

Some comments have led me to believe that some people think I"m all wound up about this whole thing? That somehow, it bothers me. I'm curious is all. I find it weird. Like I say.. when someone says top english, I feel like I'm missing out on something. So I was explaining how I was brought up to believe it all to be. That I had never heard all this other stuff, until I came here.

So I threw my opinion on the whole thing out there and said it in a manner that I believe to be true, so maybe someone might learn from it, or if others felt strongly about something different, to share that too. Maybe at the end of the day, we all have a better understanding of it all.

A person feels kind of stupid, spending a hour creating all these graphics, to only find that voicing a opinion about what I feel to be the correct way, somehow offends others and somehow gives off the impression that I'm fuming every time I hear it. It's no sweat off my stuff, if people go around saying that. I just think it's kind of funny, to me. I can't help what I find funny. I won't apologize for what I find funny either.

I did not have time to go into the whole thing about describing what is running, reverse, inside, outside, the different strokes used and what happens after the hit. I think I will let someone else explain that one. I need to focus on my work of cranking out some more videos.
So yes.. initial hit only.

 

["CaliRed".]

btw, nice graphics as usual.

why thanks Tom!

 

[Kickin' Chicken]

Cali;

I will say that it is refreshing to see that you will not reverse your course, regardless if some have you figured for being outside. They can spin it however they like.

In all seriousness, your contributions, efforts, and graphics/video expertise do not go unnoticed. How could they?

Best,
Brian kc

 

[Mikjary]

Here's two common position shots. I'm pocketing the one ball with left spin to shape the two ball in the same pocket. What is this spin called, running or reverse? Or both?

On the second shot, I'm hitting the three ball with right spin to pos the four ball. What is this spin called? BTW, should I start a poll for the answers? :grin: J/K

CueTable Help

Best,
Mike

 

[scratchs]

no other opinions?

am I crazy or do others agree with this?

C'mon, pull yourselves out of all those PuppetPointPosts

I agree with everything you have said...I have had to buy books and read an practice..over the years I have learned what stroke speed is..an yeah..it kills me to read follow/bottom english..I thought you explained it well..

 

["CaliRed".]

Here's two common position shots. I'm pocketing the one ball with left spin to shape the two ball in the same pocket. What is this spin called, running or reverse? Or both?

in this shot, using left, you would be using inside english, which in this case is running.

On the second shot, I'm hitting the three ball with right spin to pos the four ball. What is this spin called? BTW, should I start a poll for the answers? :grin: J/K

CueTable Help

Best,
Mike

in this shot, by using right, you are using inside english, which in this case is reverse.

Maybe I need to start a whole new thread on that stuff

 

[Snookerd]

LoL

I lol'd at original posters sense of humor!:thumbup:

 

[Mikjary]

in this shot, using left, you would be using inside english, which in this case is running.




in this shot, by using right, you are using inside english, which in this case is reverse.

Maybe I need to start a whole new thread on that stuff

On the first shot you're right. I'm using inside english, running english and would it be correct to say ...reverse english since you're not helping throw the one ball to the pocket? :wink:

And not trying to be a PITA, on the second shot could you say you're using outside english, that is reverse english when it contacts the rail?

I've asked these questions a bunch of times at the pool hall with all levels of players and have gotten some interesting answers over the years. Think about it! I don't think there's a wrong answer here. :grin:

Best,
Mike

 

[risky biz]

Isn't the diagram description incorrect? If you stroke with inside and the CB hits the bottom rail first then you have running, not reverse. If the CB hits the end rail first you have reverse.

 

["CaliRed".]

On the first shot you're right. I'm using inside english, running english and would it be correct to say ...reverse english since you're not helping throw the one ball to the pocket? :wink:

And not trying to be a PITA, on the second shot could you say you're using outside english, that is reverse english when it contacts the rail?

I've asked these questions a bunch of times at the pool hall with all levels of players and have gotten some interesting answers over the years. Think about it! I don't think there's a wrong answer here. :grin:

Best,
Mike

Any of my answers would be based on one simple theory. That your contact point of the cueball hitting the object ball, is on one side or the other of center. Even if by a millimeter or two... It has to be on one side or the other. I don't know what you call it, if it is ever hit dead center.

Hopefully this image will describe it better.

 

["CaliRed".]

Isn't the diagram description incorrect? If you stroke with inside and the CB hits the bottom rail first then you have running, not reverse. If the CB hits the end rail first you have reverse.

The diagram shows the cueball veering off to the left of the object ball, and the path of the line shows the cueball hitting the bottom rail. I would assume if he was talking about the cueball hitting the side rail, the path line would show it contacting the side rail.

Not sure what you mean by the "bottom rail" and the "end rail". I see a bottom rail and a side rail. If someone said the bottom or end rail, they would both mean the same rail to me.

 

[risky biz]

Originally Posted by risky biz
Isn't the diagram description incorrect? If you stroke with inside and the CB hits the bottom rail first then you have running, not reverse. If the CB hits the end rail first you have reverse.

The diagram shows the cueball veering off to the left of the object ball, and the path of the line shows the cueball hitting the bottom rail. I would assume if he was talking about the cueball hitting the side rail, the path line would show it contacting the side rail.

Not sure what you mean by the "bottom rail" and the "end rail". I see a bottom rail and a side rail. If someone said the bottom or end rail, they would both mean the same rail to me.

The end rails are the short rails at each end of the table. The side rails are the long rails on each side of the table, as in when you're breaking. In this case the bottom rail (as viewed in the diagram) is a side rail.

Getting back to my comment- isn't the diagram description of the English incorrect?

 

[JE54]

Subscribing to the thread.

 

["CaliRed".]

Originally Posted by risky biz
Isn't the diagram description incorrect? If you stroke with inside and the CB hits the bottom rail first then you have running, not reverse. If the CB hits the end rail first you have reverse.



The end rails are the short rails at each end of the table. The side rails are the long rails on each side of the table, as in when you're breaking. In this case the bottom rail (as viewed in the diagram) is a side rail.

Getting back to my comment- isn't the diagram description of the English incorrect?

The poster said he is using right hand english. The poster has the diagram showing that the cueball is hitting the 3 ball on the left of center, which is causing the cueball to to off to the left and then the poster is showing the cueball hitting the bottom rail (I have to use my terminology, you can convert) When he uses right hand english and the the cueball hits the 3 ball on the left of center of it, then is is using inside english which is reverse english when it hits the bottom rail.

Maybe I'm not getting what the poster is trying to show here, but if for some reason that he is cheating the pocket and it able to hit the side rail (I have to use my terminology, you can convert) , then that means the cueball is going to have to come off the right of center on the object ball, if that is the case, then using right hand english is now called outside english, and having the cueball hit on the right side of the object ball and the cueball contacting the side rail (I have to use my terminology, you can convert) , then it has reverse on it.

Maybe this image would better explain what you're trying to ask? Given the posters depiction of the shot being straight in, you're going to have to cheat the pocket to make it, no matter what rail you hit.. you're going to see your cueball die and shorten up.

It's too damn early in the morning to think of these particular situations. I would have to wake up more to see if what i wrote was correct.. but I think it would be important for the poster to make a more definitive explaination of what rail he's hitting first.

CueTable Help

 

[3andstop]

Any of my answers would be based on one simple theory. That your contact point of the cueball hitting the object ball, is on one side or the other of center. Even if by a millimeter or two... It has to be on one side or the other. I don't know what you call it, if it is ever hit dead center.

Hopefully this image will describe it better.
View attachment 185914

Ok, time out, if I may interject here. Lots of people use the term english when a hit on the CB is anything other than center hit. Lots of other people only use the term english when the CB is hit off the center vertical axis. I fall into the latter group, but I don't think either way is all that important regarding explaining what you are doing to the CB.

FAR MORE IMPORTANT is what I'm reading, an seeing in your diagram that confuses the relationship of inside or outside english with running or reverse english.

THESE TWO TERMS DO NOT INTERRELATE at all, other than by complete coincidence.

Now allow me to totally confuse you!

In your diagram the sidespin on the CBs are NEITHER inside or outside english. They are also coincidentally neither running or reverse english.

In this diagram running english is DRAW!!!!! Reverse english is FOLLOW!!!!!

Now to explain. Running or reverse english refers to what the natural rotation of the CB is based on THE DIRECTION OF ITS TRAVEL around the table.

If a CB is going to travel clockwise around the table, then natural english is right hand english period. If the CB is moving in the direction to travel counter clockwise around the table then running english is left hand english period.

Putting the opposite english on the CB in the above situation is reverse english.

RUNNING and REVERSE english terms are used ONLY with relation to the CB TRAVEL around the table.

INSIDE and OUTSIDE english are used ONLY in terms of the CBs contact with an OBJECT BALL. Inside english is the english on the CB closest to the contact point on the OB when hitting the CB. So, if you are cutting a shot to the left, the left side of the CB will hit the OB, so left english is Inside English in this case. Outside english is the opposite. Simple as that. Nothing to do with anything else.

Inside english may or may not be running english. Outside english may or may not be running english.

The use of inside or outside english when contacting an object ball will effect the natural path of the CB after the CB contacts an OB and goes on to contact a rail of course, but the use of these terms should only be used in connection with the contact of the CB to the OB.

Unlike running or reverse english which doesn't need contact with an object ball to be described, since its description is based on the direction of the CB around the table. Either clockwise or counter clockwise.

In your diagram you are shooting DEAD into the rail. SOOOO, what will be the normal direction of the CB once it contacts the rail? Normal direction, is not left or right. Normal direction is right back at you, straight back.

So technically if the normal direction is straight back at you, running english would be draw (if you wish to call draw or follow english) since thise spin compliments the CBs natural rotation as it travels off the rail.

Follow spin off the rail spins the CB counter to its natural rotation off the rail on a straight back, so technically that would be reverse.

 

["CaliRed".]

Ok, time out, if I may interject here. Lots of people use the term english when a hit on the CB is anything other than center hit. Lots of other people only use the term english when the CB is hit off the center vertical axis. I fall into the latter group, but I don't think either way is all that important regarding explaining what you are doing to the CB.

FAR MORE IMPORTANT is what I'm reading, an seeing in your diagram that confuses the relationship of inside or outside english with running or reverse english.

THESE TWO TERMS DO NOT INTERRELATE at all, other than by complete coincidence.

Now allow me to totally confuse you!

In your diagram the sidespin on the CBs are NEITHER inside or outside english. They are also coincidentally neither running or reverse english.

In this diagram running english is DRAW!!!!! Reverse english is FOLLOW!!!!!

I'm not sure what diagram you're referring to

Now to explain. Running or reverse english refers to what the natural rotation of the CB is based on THE DIRECTION OF ITS TRAVEL around the table.

If a CB is going to travel clockwise around the table, then natural english is right hand english period. If the CB is moving in the direction to travel counter clockwise around the table then running english is left hand english period.

that would make sense, as if you were going to alter it's natural tendency to spin away to the left or right, then reverse spin would be needed to stop that natural progress

Putting the opposite english on the CB in the above situation is reverse english.

still not sure what diagram you're are referring to

RUNNING and REVERSE english terms are used ONLY with relation to the CB TRAVEL around the table.

INSIDE and OUTSIDE english are used ONLY in terms of the CBs contact with an OBJECT BALL. Inside english is the english on the CB closest to the contact point on the OB when hitting the CB. So, if you are cutting a shot to the left, the left side of the CB will hit the OB, so left english is Inside English in this case. Outside english is the opposite. Simple as that. Nothing to do with anything else.

Inside english may or may not be running english. Outside english may or may not be running english.

The use of inside or outside english when contacting an object ball will effect the natural path of the CB after the CB contacts an OB and goes on to contact a rail of course, but the use of these terms should only be used in connection with the contact of the CB to the OB.

Unlike running or reverse english which doesn't need contact with an object ball to be described, since its description is based on the direction of the CB around the table. Either clockwise or counter clockwise.

I agree with this.. running and reverse is what happens to the cueball after it contacts a rail. Inside or outside describes where you're hitting the cueball. Although it can be pointed out, that if some told me to use reverse to hit a shot, it would be important to know whether I needed to use inside or outside or left or right, whichever you wanted to say. So the terms can be used to describe how to hit a shot, because one of the main concerns of a pool player, is what happens to the cueball after it hits the object ball. I believe these terms are all lumped together, it's important to know what they mean, but they do all get lumped together when someone is describing a shot.

If there is a shot of me cutting a ball in the pocket and getting shape off 2 rails for the next ball... I may hear many different terms used.

hit it with some low left

hit it with some low outside

hit it with some reverse english

hit it with some high right

hit it with some high inside

hit it with some high running english.

So it's important to understand what it all means. Because while inside outside is for the cueball, running reverse is what happens after it hits a rail, someone describing a shot, you both know the cueball is goign to hit a rail after contact and they may use several ways to telling you how to hit it.

thanks for bringing that up though, as I completely forgot about stressing that point

In your diagram you are shooting DEAD into the rail. SOOOO, what will be the normal direction of the CB once it contacts the rail? Normal direction, is not left or right. Normal direction is right back at you, straight back.

So technically if the normal direction is straight back at you, running english would be draw (if you wish to call draw or follow english) since thise spin compliments the CBs natural rotation as it travels off the rail.

Follow spin off the rail spins the CB counter to its natural rotation off the rail on a straight back, so technically that would be reverse.

 

[Mikjary]

RUNNING and REVERSE english terms are used ONLY with relation to the CB TRAVEL around the table.

INSIDE and OUTSIDE english are used ONLY in terms of the CBs contact with an OBJECT BALL.used in connection with the contact of the CB to the OB.

I think these two opinions are a good synopsis for all the excellent graphics in this thread. Too many times the words reverse and inside are used interchangeably and their seperate meanings are lost.

It's also amazing how much verbage and bandwith a group of pool players can employ to expound on such a simple subject. And they say pool players are way down the food chain...sheesh!

Best,
Mike

 

[3andstop]

I'm not sure what diagram you're referring to

This is the diagram that is incorrect, and does not display either inside or outside english,(because it is not used relative to contact with an OB) or running or reverse english, since the natural direction of the CB is right back at you and neither clockwise or counter clockwise.

 

["CaliRed".]

This is the diagram that is incorrect, and does not display either inside or outside english,(because it is not used relative to contact with an OB) or running or reverse english, since the natural direction of the CB is right back at you and neither clockwise or counter clockwise.

This diagram is to describe that if you hit the object ball (the red ball) just a shade to the left or just a shade to the right of center, using the same right english, what it would be called and what would happen when it hit the rail. Maybe you weren't getting the purpose of it, is the only reason why I think you would say it doesn't show inside or outside or running or reverse. The focus was the cueball/object ball showing how it all changes, just a few mm's of where the object ball is hit to the right or left of center. Maybe the lines threw you off from the point I was trying to make?

That image and this image is the same thing, just one's more detailed then the other

CueTable Help

 

[3andstop]

This diagram is to describe that if you hit the object ball (the red ball) just a shade to the left or just a shade to the right of center, using the same right english, what it would be called and what would happen when it hit the rail. Maybe you weren't getting the purpose of it, is the only reason why I think you would say it doesn't show inside or outside or running or reverse. The focus was the cueball/object ball showing how it all changes, just a few mm's of where the object ball is hit to the right or left of center. Maybe the lines threw you off from the point I was trying to make?

That image and this image is the same thing, just one's more detailed then the other

CueTable Help

Ahh, In the image I copied I didn't even know there was an object ball involved.