According to Kamui, we've all been abusing our tips.

[9BallPaul]

http://www.kamuitips.com/

Quoting directly from their website:

"We know that once you have tried OUR tip tool you will understand that the other tip tools out there were meant for tenderizing your average steak!
Watch the Gator Grip video, you'll see."

Seems as though there many players out there who have strung together racks, run hundreds in straight pool, performed damn miracles on the pool table, and here, lo and behold, we learn that they've been treating their tips like an average steak!

Seems to me that a few folks might take issue with that.

Remember Tokyo Rose, I say!

 

[sfleinen]

http://www.kamuitips.com/

Quoting directly from their website:

"We know that once you have tried OUR tip tool you will understand that the other tip tools out there were meant for tenderizing your average steak!
Watch the Gator Grip video, you'll see."

Seems as though there many players out there who have strung together racks, run hundreds in straight pool, performed damn miracles on the pool table, and here, lo and behold, we learn that they've been treating their tips like an average steak!

Seems to me that a few folks might take issue with that.

Remember Pearl Harbor, I say!

Paul:

This is nothing more than your average marketing drivel, written by marketing droids with essentially no understanding of how the tools that are out there are actually used. The Kamui marketing droids look at tools like the Tip-Pik, or the Tip Tapper (Lou Butera's version or the after-market copies), or the "It's George" tip tool, and they think those spikes and coarse knurlings "look the same" as those used on meat tenderizer tools. But by saying/writing things like this, they're only showing their blissful ignorance of how these tools are supposed to be used. Personally, if I ever wrote something like that, I'd later (after I got the knowledge of how these tools are supposed to be used) be embarrassed that I did.

But, ah yes, knowledge is many times not necessary in the world of marketing! It's just creative use of words, for coercion purposes.

I run into this stuff all the time, in my line of work (I.T. Security). I'm constantly barraged with stuff like how Microsoft -- who's for years been trying to right their ship in terms of operating system product security -- says their "Threat Management Gateway (TMG)" product is "superior" to "other" firewall products out there (e.g. Juniper and Cisco), and then go on to give a shopping list of "features" that really shouldn't have to be on a firewall in the first place. But alas, they'll snag a lot of customers with these "features" -- because they're exploiting the lack of knowledge many customers have.

Again, just marketing.

-Sean <-- believes that knowledge is power

P.S.: the Pearl Harbor ding is unnecessary and quite racist

 

[branpureza]

http://www.kamuitips.com/

Quoting directly from their website:

"We know that once you have tried OUR tip tool you will understand that the other tip tools out there were meant for tenderizing your average steak!
Watch the Gator Grip video, you'll see."

Seems as though there many players out there who have strung together racks, run hundreds in straight pool, performed damn miracles on the pool table, and here, lo and behold, we learn that they've been treating their tips like an average steak!

Seems to me that a few folks might take issue with that.

Remember Pearl Harbor, I say!

Where does it say that we've "all been abusing our tips" or that players have been "treating their tips like an average steak"?

I only see where they talk about how most tip tools look like they were meant for tenderizing steak. Did you actually see this or are you putting words in their mouth?

I actually agree with what they say. Chalk is an extremely fine powder and if you look at tip tappers and tip piks you really don't need holes or dents that size in your tip to allow it to hold chalk.

Also what the hell does Pearl Harbor have to do with anything?

Do you have something about Japanese people or something?

 

[Roadie]

Well I think that the remember Pearl Harbor comment is out of line but if one wants to use this style of treatment for the tip then there are certainly much cheaper and more compact solutions out there.

Go to any beauty supply store and look at their selection of nail files. For that matter you can also go to the hardware store and find any number of files which would work just as well. Or you can buy a sheet of carbide sandpaper and fold it up and get years of use for about $2. Or you can buy some cheap jeweler's files which would last a lifetime.

This item from Kamui is a bit overdesigned for the task in my opinion. The cost to make them is probably high from what I can see of the design. And the advertising pitch is over the top. Tip tools such as the TipPik work perfectly well to DIMPLE the tip and remove no material. For $25 one can purchase the Ultimate Tip Tool, the Slippy Tip Tool, or a host of other similar ones that have an abrasive as well as a dimpling section. To purchase a tool like this one for $35 which only has a light abrasive is a bit high in comparison to the plethora of great tools already on the market which do this and much more. And most of them are more compact than this.

$1.80

More - http://www.cuesight.com/cue-accessories-tip-tools.html

Also what I don't see enough of is leather burnishers for the sides of the tip. A piece of saddle leather works great to burnish the sides of the tip. You can take a section of a belt or find scrap from any leather craft store cheaply. You can even use glove leather if you glue it or staple it to something solid.

All the tools you need to maintain perfect tips are available for under $10 if you care to take the time to assemble them.

 

[12ozCurl]

Where does it say that we've "all been abusing our tips" or that players have been "treating their tips like an average steak"?

I only see where they talk about how most tip tools look like they were meant for tenderizing steak. Did you actually see this or are you putting words in their mouth?

I actually agree with what they say. Chalk is an extremely fine powder and if you look at tip tappers and tip piks you really don't need holes or dents that size in your tip to allow it to hold chalk.

Also what the hell does Pearl Harbor have to do with anything?

Do you have something about Japanese people or something?

Well put! I agree 100%. Thats twice....Stop stating my opinions before I do!

 

[Roadie]

http://www.kamuitips.com/store/Details.cfm?ProdID=95

This product is interesting. Only because they want to keep the oils from your body off the shaft. The pitch is that the sandpaper/cloth combo was "Designed by a cue maker who understood proper shaft maintenance. Made to clean your cue shaft from the grime buildup from your hands holding your cue between shots."

Understood as in past tense? Is that cue maker gone? Because there is a famous cue maker who sadly is gone who gave the exact opposite advice regarding shaft maintenance. I remember reading a story about Jerry Franklin where he would always run his finger alongside his nose and then rub his shaft using the oil on his fingers. Contrary to popular belief human hands do not exude oil. The only oil on your hands comes from touching your face. But back to the story. Jerry Franklin believed that one did not need to clean shafts. He felt that the natural oils from use were enough to condition and seal the wood and that it should be left alone. And in fact absent dings and dents there is really no reason to sand on a piece of shaftwood unless a person wants to reduce the shaft size.

Lastly, microfine sanding cloth has been on the market for more than 15 years. It was sold as Micro Mesh by Leslie Rogers of the CueTech Billiard Academy and is still available from plenty of outlets. It is great for conditioning shafts if you wish to use sanding cloth and comes in five grades from fine to super fine, I forget the exact grits but 12000 springs to mind. I believe that MicroMesh is actually the name brand of the sanding cloth and I don't know what Mr. Rogers called his package.

 

[JohnnyOzone]

I don't know what Mr. Rogers called his package.

I believe he called it "Mr Happy"

Anyway, way back when Robert Byrne wrote his first standard book of pool, he advocated a piece of sandpaper glued to a piece of wood.
Best scuffer ever, because all you have to do is roll the tip on it. Lasts forever.

 

[Blue Hog ridr]

Awww, ya beat me to it. Good catch.

Ok Mr. Smarty pants, what did Mr. Green Jeans call his package?

 

[9BallPaul]

P.S.: the Pearl Harbor ding is unnecessary and quite racist

Point taken. I'll edit. Bad mood tonight, got beat in 9-ball by my damn nephew.

 

[The Chinchilla]

http://www.kamuitips.com/

Quoting directly from their website:

"We know that once you have tried OUR tip tool you will understand that the other tip tools out there were meant for tenderizing your average steak!
Watch the Gator Grip video, you'll see."

Seems as though there many players out there who have strung together racks, run hundreds in straight pool, performed damn miracles on the pool table, and here, lo and behold, we learn that they've been treating their tips like an average steak!

Seems to me that a few folks might take issue with that.

Remember Tokyo Rose, I say!

I personally don't think this is the most outlandish clam they have made. I saw their website say that their chalk will reduce deflection. They have an accompanying diagram, and it makes it look like the cb deflects quite a bit less. I think they need to somehow test stuff like this before stating it.

 

[Itsnotme]

Ok, I've had enough of this kamui crap! What's next? Is kamui chalk gonna have benefits one the male reproductive organ(s) because of long term use?

I'm personally boycotting them... This is getting rather silly...

 

[12ozCurl]

I personally don't think this is the most outlandish clam they have made. I saw their website say that their chalk will reduce deflection. They have an accompanying diagram, and it makes it look like the cb deflects quite a bit less. I think they need to somehow test stuff like this before stating it.

They have tested it. That is why they said it. It is true....

 

[Roadie]

They have tested it. That is why they said it. It is true....

What are the physics behind this? By now we all understand that endmass/weight at tip is the primary driver for decreasing deflection. So what properties does the Kamui chalk have that reduces deflection? I can see increases spin if it actually would grip the ball for a longer time but I feel that the struck ball is gone so fast that any increase in friction will be negligible.

Unless of course they mean perhaps that you can somehow hit the ball closer to center and generate more spin due to increased friction which might also have ancillary benefit of reduced deflection BECAUSE the cue tip is not as far out on the ball. So in effect the deflection is not reduced absolutely but relative to the goal. I.e. deflection is the same but with Master's chalk you have to hit 1.5 tips out to generate x-amount of spin and with Kamui you can hit 1.25 tips out to get the same amount of spin and thus at 1.25 tips the cue ball is deflecting less because it is being struck closer to the center.

I would not think that the mere application of chalk would reduce deflection physically. If so then I see $100 Predator Chalk on the horizon.

 

[The Chinchilla]

What are the physics behind this? By now we all understand that endmass/weight at tip is the primary driver for decreasing deflection. So what properties does the Kamui chalk have that reduces deflection? I can see increases spin if it actually would grip the ball for a longer time but I feel that the struck ball is gone so fast that any increase in friction will be negligible.

Unless of course they mean perhaps that you can somehow hit the ball closer to center and generate more spin due to increased friction which might also have ancillary benefit of reduced deflection BECAUSE the cue tip is not as far out on the ball. So in effect the deflection is not reduced absolutely but relative to the goal. I.e. deflection is the same but with Master's chalk you have to hit 1.5 tips out to generate x-amount of spin and with Kamui you can hit 1.25 tips out to get the same amount of spin and thus at 1.25 tips the cue ball is deflecting less because it is being struck closer to the center.

I would not think that the mere application of chalk would reduce deflection physically. If so then I see $100 Predator Chalk on the horizon.

Well, it say "reducing slippage decreases defelction" on their picture on facebook, so I don't think this tip offset argument even applies. But that is a more plausable explination as far as i'm concerned.

I'm not sure why the one poster said it has been tested? How did they test it? Any info on the tests at all?

 

[Roadie]

Well, it say "reducing slippage decreases defelction" on their picture on facebook, so I don't think this tip offset argument even applies. But that is a more plausable explination as far as i'm concerned.

I'm not sure why the one poster said it has been tested? How did they test it? Any info on the tests at all?

What is slippage?

When the ball is struck with anything other than center ball there are two forces acting on it, forward motion and friction. My guess would be that slippage is being used in place of friction. As in increasing friction decreases deflection. Now, is that true? And if so why?

Deflection is understood to be the amount of flex in the first couple inches of the shaft, which I think would or should include the flex of the tip itself. The concept is that the shaft bends x-amount and this corresponds exactly to how much the cueball is thrown off of the line of shaft aim. Thus one can calculate how much to adjust in order to have the cue ball arrive at the desired point when the amount of deflection is known.

It has been fairly well documented as to what they separation time is when a ball is struck. I doubt that Kamui chalk increases this amount of time significantly if at all. Going from the premise that no chalk is the least amount of friction possible when using a standard unroughed leather tip I can buy into the idea that Kamui chalk increases the friction between tip and ball over Masters chalk. But I fail to understand how this increased friction translates into reduced deflection, or at the least any deflection reduction that is truly measurable and noticeable.

Patrick Johnson proposed a test whereby one had to hit the cueball with a certain speed and make it go to a target. He had offered I believe a $100 prize if anyone could prove Predator's claim that their shafts generated more spin than any other shaft. I don't think that any person ever won that prize from Mr. Johnson. At the end of the day it seemed that Mr. Johnson's claim that the cue ball leaves the tip so quickly that changing from a one standard to cue to another, ex. from stock Schon to Predator makes no difference when the cue ball is struck in the exact same place at the exact same speed as far as spin generation is concerned. He posited that when someone uses a 13mm shaft and then transitions to a 12.5mm shaft that they are perhaps actually hitting the cue ball farther out than they think thus generating more spin. This would give the illusion that the smaller diameter shaft generates more spin when in reality it does not.

I would like to see the data showing that Kamui chalk reduces deflection. If true then it's another benefit. If not true then why mention it? Lasts longer, holds better is quite an improvement already.

Perhaps Mr. Page can weigh in here as he has done a video on this topic.

 

[12ozCurl]

What are the physics behind this? By now we all understand that endmass/weight at tip is the primary driver for decreasing deflection. So what properties does the Kamui chalk have that reduces deflection? I can see increases spin if it actually would grip the ball for a longer time but I feel that the struck ball is gone so fast that any increase in friction will be negligible.

Unless of course they mean perhaps that you can somehow hit the ball closer to center and generate more spin due to increased friction which might also have ancillary benefit of reduced deflection BECAUSE the cue tip is not as far out on the ball. So in effect the deflection is not reduced absolutely but relative to the goal. I.e. deflection is the same but with Master's chalk you have to hit 1.5 tips out to generate x-amount of spin and with Kamui you can hit 1.25 tips out to get the same amount of spin and thus at 1.25 tips the cue ball is deflecting less because it is being struck closer to the center.

I would not think that the mere application of chalk would reduce deflection physically. If so then I see $100 Predator Chalk on the horizon.

I have no idea why it works but it does....

I am not a physicist so I can neither refute nor confirm your claims. However, I am a user of Kamui chalk, and all I have to say is try a peice. You will be pleasantly supprised.

 

[Roadie]

I have no idea why it works but it does....

I am not a physicist so I can neither refute nor confirm your claims. However, I am a user of Kamui chalk, and all I have to say is try a peice. You will be pleasantly supprised.

I have tried a piece. I have a piece on the way to me. I like it. I do not believe that it cures cancer.

When I tried it I tried all the standard spin shots and masse' shots that I can perform and frankly the only difference is that I didn't have to apply chalk very often. Which, for me is a nice reason to use it. I am particularly attracted to the idea that I don't have to chalk before every shot.

 

[12ozCurl]

I have tried a piece. I have a piece on the way to me. I like it. I do not believe that it cures cancer.

When I tried it I tried all the standard spin shots and masse' shots that I can perform and frankly the only difference is that I didn't have to apply chalk very often. Which, for me is a nice reason to use it. I am particularly attracted to the idea that I don't have to chalk before every shot.

I never said it cures cancer. I do know that I can draw the ball about 3 inches farther on a full stroke.

 

[Roadie]

I never said it cures cancer. I do know that I can draw the ball about 3 inches farther on a full stroke.

Well then make a video and show us what Kamui won't. Look up the exact parameters of Patrick Johnson's spin test and video yourself doing it. You sell Kamui chalk so any concrete evidence of the chalk improving performance can only benefit your sales as well as the reputation.

Be careful though to consider the implications of what you claim. Assuming that Kamui chalk by itself imparts more spin with the same force then that means that players will need to adjust their games quite a bit when using Kamui chalk. I am not really sure that this is the message that Kamui wants to send. Or maybe it is.

Maybe that is what is meant by "game changer".

 

[The Chinchilla]

What is slippage?

When the ball is struck with anything other than center ball there are two forces acting on it, forward motion and friction. My guess would be that slippage is being used in place of friction. As in increasing friction decreases deflection. Now, is that true? And if so why?

Deflection is understood to be the amount of flex in the first couple inches of the shaft, which I think would or should include the flex of the tip itself. The concept is that the shaft bends x-amount and this corresponds exactly to how much the cueball is thrown off of the line of shaft aim. Thus one can calculate how much to adjust in order to have the cue ball arrive at the desired point when the amount of deflection is known.

It has been fairly well documented as to what they separation time is when a ball is struck. I doubt that Kamui chalk increases this amount of time significantly if at all. Going from the premise that no chalk is the least amount of friction possible when using a standard unroughed leather tip I can buy into the idea that Kamui chalk increases the friction between tip and ball over Masters chalk. But I fail to understand how this increased friction translates into reduced deflection, or at the least any deflection reduction that is truly measurable and noticeable.

Patrick Johnson proposed a test whereby one had to hit the cueball with a certain speed and make it go to a target. He had offered I believe a $100 prize if anyone could prove Predator's claim that their shafts generated more spin than any other shaft. I don't think that any person ever won that prize from Mr. Johnson. At the end of the day it seemed that Mr. Johnson's claim that the cue ball leaves the tip so quickly that changing from a one standard to cue to another, ex. from stock Schon to Predator makes no difference when the cue ball is struck in the exact same place at the exact same speed as far as spin generation is concerned. He posited that when someone uses a 13mm shaft and then transitions to a 12.5mm shaft that they are perhaps actually hitting the cue ball farther out than they think thus generating more spin. This would give the illusion that the smaller diameter shaft generates more spin when in reality it does not.

I would like to see the data showing that Kamui chalk reduces deflection. If true then it's another benefit. If not true then why mention it? Lasts longer, holds better is quite an improvement already.

Perhaps Mr. Page can weigh in here as he has done a video on this topic.

I don't think there is any reasonable basis to make these claims about decreased deflection. I guess you could look at force equations and try to decide if an increase in friction would result in a greater or less force. I would think increased friction would mean an increased force, which as far as i'm concerned would mean more deflection.

The more a cuestick "slips" the less deflection there would be I would think. Truth be told though, I don't think the chalk would produce more or less deflection in actual practice, which is why I don't like this claim.