Pattern Racking

[DogsPlayingPool]

Let us suppose that pattern racking is as effective as you seem to think it may be, Ok you pattern rack, roll your own, you jump out to a substantial lead. At some point I get to the table then I can do...oh yeah the very same thing. Ergo it's a push, of no substantial significance or advantage...

Wow, thank you so much for injecting some logic.

I don't see the logic because you CANNOT do the same thing when you get to the table since it is against the rules.

Yes, it does make sense - if you are perfectly OK with breaking the rules. But a lot of guys are not OK with breaking the rules so if their opponent pattern racks against them they are at a disadvantage.

By your "logic" say I'm at the table and you go to the bathroom. Since you left the table during my inning I have the right to continue shooting. I miss while you are away but since you didn't see it I keep shooting and run out the rack. Is there a problem? By your logic "at some point you get to the table then you can do...oh yeah the very same thing. Ergo it's a push, of no substantial significance or advantage."

Whether the advantage is huge or just an edge is irrelevant. Even a slight edge obtained by breaking the rules is a problem.

Maybe the rule is problematical since pattern racking has such high deniability and is difficult to enforce. Perhaps the rule should be dropped. But that is another issue. For now it is against the rules. Do players only have to play by the rules they like (and each player gets to decide for himself which rules they like)? The question is, do you play with honor by the rules or don't you?

 

[billy bones]

here we go again

I don't see the logic because you CANNOT do the same thing when you get to the table since it is against the rules.

Yes, it does make sense - if you are perfectly OK with breaking the rules. But a lot of guys are not OK with breaking the rules so if their opponent pattern racks against them they are at a disadvantage.

By your "logic" say I'm at the table and you go to the bathroom. Since you left the table during my inning I have the right to continue shooting. I miss while you are away but since you didn't see it I keep shooting and run out the rack. Is there a problem? By your logic "at some point you get to the table then you can do...oh yeah the very same thing. Ergo it's a push, of no substantial significance or advantage."

Whether the advantage is huge or just an edge is irrelevant. Even a slight edge obtained by breaking the rules is a problem.

Maybe the rule is problematical since pattern racking has such high deniability and is difficult to enforce. Perhaps the rule should be dropped. But that is another issue. For now it is against the rules. Do players only have to play by the rules they like (and each player gets to decide for himself which rules they like)? The question is, do you play with honor by the rules or don't you?

You changed the entire premise of my post, which BTW I see an inordinate amount of on this site. It has nothing to do with honor or breaking the rules. The premise was that if pattern racking was allowed & I got my turn then I could obviously do the same thing thereby negating any precieved advantage. The scenario I offered was to demonstrate that in & of itself that pattern racking presents no overt advantage that is not available to the opposing player.

I see a disturbing trend here. I have witnessed it on multiple post. Individuals do not maintain the original post. They either add something that was not there or detract portions that were. Then it seeems they go off on a rant that has little if anything with the original premise. Then they at times add insult to injury. And I mean that very literally, they begin to bash the previous poster with all sorts of implied or blantant slights as to their character, skills or intelligence. Very sad indeed. :frown:

So here it once again. I believe that "Pattern Racking" is overrated. That all things being equal it presents no ostensible advantage, therefore it is irrelevent.

Now on to bigger & better things..... did you hear that? A Catfish calling my name As for you fellows... Good luck & good pool :thumbup:

Billy Bones

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

I didn't change anything. Here is your post in it's entirety. I see nowhere that you state the point you are making is based on the premise "if pattern racking is allowed". And if you are making your point under that premise, it is you who is manipulating it to fit into the discussion because pattern racking is NOT allowed according to the rules. If it was, there would be no discussion at all. The "if it was allowed" premise has nothing to do with anything. Two guys matching up can agree to do anything they want, including pattern racking. I have no problem with that. But that's just not what we are talking about here, Billy. We're talking about a match supposedly played by the rules - either a match in a tournament or a match up supposedly being played by the rules where pattern racking wasn't expressly agreed to.

I have played with such players (of old) & certainly watched them at length. In a head up match, mulitiple sets rarely would that strategy change the outcome. The only possible creedence I might see is a short race, one set, roll your own. Which as I stated in my 1st post seems just a trifffle odd to me to begin with. In fact I believe it is complete loonacy. It is a strange concept that I do not agree with.

Of the matches I observed even with pattern racking, & roll your own, the opponents had their opportunities, which they did not capitolize on. The best I saw was one player obtained a sustantial lead. Each player had his chance. I believe it is highly overrated. I was shown pattern racking years ago although it was not announced as "Pattern Racking". Of course we were not "Rolling our own". I was also shown how to rack so that ostensibly the sequential balls would arrive at opposing areas of the table after the break. It's success rate was nominal at best.

Unless I do not get a shot then it is my firm belief that if I get to the table then I have an opportunity to get into the game & therefore a chance to place myself in a position to win. If I do not capitolize, then that is my own fault. Let us suppose that pattern racking is as effective as you seem to think it may be, Ok you pattern rack, roll your own, you jump out to a substantial lead. At some point I get to the table then I can do...oh yeah the very same thing. Ergo it's a push, of no substantial significance or advantage.

I certainly respect your opinion & your right to express it. It is not my concern to change anyones perception to coincide with mine. But those are my experiences which form my perceptions that in turn are the basis of the opinion I just rendered. And as I am fond of saying, "That's my 2 cents folks" Good luck & good pool. Billy Bones :thumbup:

 

[billy bones]

not necessary

I didn't change anything. Here is your post in it's entirety. I see nowhere that you state the point you are making is based on the premise "if pattern racking is allowed". And if you are making your point under that premise, it is you who is manipulating it to fit into the discussion because pattern racking is NOT allowed according to the rules. If it was, there would be no discussion at all. The "if it was allowed" premise has nothing to do with anything. Two guys matching up can agree to do anything they want, including pattern racking. I have no problem with that. But that's just not what we are talking about here, Billy. We're talking about a match supposedly played by the rules - either a match in a tournament or a match up supposedly being played by the rules where pattern racking wasn't expressly agreed to.

The original post mentions absolutely ZERO about legal/illegal. It simply list links to 2 videos that "Put an end to Pattern Racking" The gist of many of the following post was that Pattern Racking is somehow inheriently unfair. Which is what I am addressing. As far as whatever rules one chooses to employ. I am willing to play by any rules that are evenly applied. I have no grievance with that position. If a player breaks the rules of any defined match play then he should be penalized or terminated from the compitetion. I do not disagree at all.

Without clearly defining at the outset legal/illegal, breaking the rules, leaves it open to interpretation which I drew from the posts following the OP which is completely devoid of any reference to legal/illegal. I manipulated nothing. I stated my position in accordance with the information presented in the post previous to my 1st post on the subject. If by chance I have misinterpated the intent of this thread then I stand corrected. Trust me it would be no means be the 1st time. At this time I respectfully agree to disagree. We seem to be jousting over semantics when apparently we agree on honor & playing by the rules.

I leave you with this,
Debate is good for the intellect. Seeing another's perspective is good for the soul.-BB

As always.......Good luck & good pool

Billy Bones :thumbup:

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

The original post mentions absolutely ZERO about legal/illegal. It simply list links to 2 videos that "Put an end to Pattern Racking" The gist of many of the following post was that Pattern Racking is somehow inheriently unfair. Which is what I am addressing. As far as whatever rules one chooses to employ. I am willing to play by any rules that are evenly applied. I have no grievance with that position. If a player breaks the rules of any defined match play then he should be penalized or terminated from the compitetion. I do not disagree at all.

Without clearly defining at the outset legal/illegal, breaking the rules, leaves it open to interpretation which I drew from the posts following the OP which is completely devoid of any reference to legal/illegal. I manipulated nothing. I stated my position in accordance with the information presented in the post previous to my 1st post on the subject. If by chance I have misinterpated the intent of this thread then I stand corrected. Trust me it would be no means be the 1st time. At this time I respectfully agree to disagree. We seem to be jousting over semantics when apparently we agree on honor & playing by the rules.

I leave you with this,
Debate is good for the intellect. Seeing another's perspective is good for the soul.-BB

As always.......Good luck & good pool

Billy Bones :thumbup:

Thanks for the reply, Billy. It helps me understand exactly what you were trying to say. I would agree with you that if both players are of similar speed and both are pattern racking (whether it is legal, agreed to, or whatever) then it probably does not give either player a major advantage. Obviously I also agree with you that players should abide by the rules or suffer a penalty for breaking them.

This subject has been brought up so many times and it just simply amazes me how many guys - most of whom would probably also claim they would be honest about calling a foul on themselves - think it is OK to pattern rack even though it is against World Standardized Rules, the rules most tournaments and matches would be played under. That it is simply a skill set one should have or accept being at a disadvantage against those that do. I just disagree with this "philosophy".

Thanks for the good dialog, I appreciate it.

 

[The Chinchilla]

I don't see the logic because you CANNOT do the same thing when you get to the table since it is against the rules.

Yes, it does make sense - if you are perfectly OK with breaking the rules. But a lot of guys are not OK with breaking the rules so if their opponent pattern racks against them they are at a disadvantage.

By your "logic" say I'm at the table and you go to the bathroom. Since you left the table during my inning I have the right to continue shooting. I miss while you are away but since you didn't see it I keep shooting and run out the rack. Is there a problem? By your logic "at some point you get to the table then you can do...oh yeah the very same thing. Ergo it's a push, of no substantial significance or advantage."

Whether the advantage is huge or just an edge is irrelevant. Even a slight edge obtained by breaking the rules is a problem.

Maybe the rule is problematical since pattern racking has such high deniability and is difficult to enforce. Perhaps the rule should be dropped. But that is another issue. For now it is against the rules. Do players only have to play by the rules they like (and each player gets to decide for himself which rules they like)? The question is, do you play with honor by the rules or don't you?

We have been here before, so we don't need to go over it too much But is a rule that is unenforceable a rule?

I will admit, I can pattern rack in say 5 or 6 different ways (ie ball patterns), and get the same advantage. You can't enforce that.

Here is the key point, my opponent can do that too.... so unless you are a sap and want to get walked on by other players, you gotta "keep up with the joneses." It's the same thing in business, if all my competitors are doing something slightly unethical because it works, guess what i have to do, unless I want to go out of business (smear campaigns in politics a perfect example). You can say, oh no i'd find a way to do it ethically, but that just isn't pragmatic. And if you say that I admitted what i'm doing is unethical, well then prove it! Prove that I pattern racked. I want you to, how do you do that (see below)? But even if you do prove it, the point from the very astute poster still exists: isn't it a push if both players rack their own patterns. YES!!!! How can you complain about a push??!

The problem here is with the game (ie the corner ball going), and the rules (ie you can't enforce pattern racking and thus can't stop your opponent from doing it). NOT WITH THE PLAYERS. If you were ever to believe a single thing i said, let it be that.

If you put a "pattern" that I can't rack for a certain tournament, of course I will follow that, because it's enforceable and my opponent can't do it as well. But, let's just assume for now pattern racking is very advantageous, you can't let my opponents do it and expect me not to. THIS IS WHY MANY PEOPLE SAY THEY SEE THE PROS DO IT, SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY MUST!! If they don't they aint out there anymore, so you see how that works?? I know i'm saying stuff that's not popular, but it's true so I can deal with that, maybe i'm the Ron Paul of AZ.

I guess my post leaves a question to be answered..... how are you going to enforce my patterns rack.... you are the ref and I roll this up....

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Point is, maybe you will say something, and I will change to this.....

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It's effectively the same thing and I have maybe 6 or 7 (or more) versions of the same thing..... so what do you do? Tell me (or my opponent) i fouled now?? How do you handle it? When you come up with a good solution to that problem is when i start being swayed to your opinion And if your solution is 10ball, i will scream and jump for joy, believe me.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

We have been here before, so we don't need to go over it too much But is a rule that is unenforceable a rule?

Yes, it is. Are you asking if you cheat but don't get caught, is it cheating? Yes, it is.

I will admit, I can pattern rack in say 5 or 6 different ways (ie ball patterns), and get the same advantage. You can't enforce that.

Here is the key point, my opponent can do that too.... so unless you are a sap and want to get walked on by other players, you gotta "keep up with the joneses." It's the same thing in business, if all my competitors are doing something slightly unethical because it works, guess what i have to do, unless I want to go out of business (smear campaigns in politics a perfect example). You can say, oh no i'd find a way to do it ethically, but that just isn't pragmatic. And if you say that I admitted what i'm doing is unethical, well then prove it! Prove that I pattern racked. I want you to, how do you do that (see below)?

Not sure how to respond to this except , I disagree. Your opponent can do it too - only if he is willing to also break the rules. Also, I don't think of breaking the rules as "unethical". To me unethical is about doing something that while it might be legal, would be considered poor action by social standards. For example, not calling a foul on yourself in a ref'd match that the ref didn't see might be simply unethical rather than illegal. While I don't agree with this either I don't know that I would put this in the same class as knowingly breaking the rules.

The problem here is with the game (ie the corner ball going), and the rules (ie you can't enforce pattern racking and thus can't stop your opponent from doing it). NOT WITH THE PLAYERS. If you were ever to believe a single thing i said, let it be that.

While I agree the rule is problematical in its ability to be enforced, I don't believe that gives any player the right to break it.

If you put a "pattern" that I can't rack for a certain tournament, of course I will follow that, because it's enforceable and my opponent can't do it as well. But, let's just assume for now pattern racking is very advantageous, you can't let my opponents do it and expect me not to. THIS IS WHY MANY PEOPLE SAY THEY SEE THE PROS DO IT, SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY MUST!! If they don't they aint out there anymore, so you see how that works?? I know i'm saying stuff that's not popular, but it's true so I can deal with that, maybe i'm the Ron Paul of AZ.

Let's be clear, you make a decision whether to pattern rack or not. Nobody is being forced; it's a choice.

I guess my post leaves a question to be answered..... how are you going to enforce my patterns rack.... you are the ref and I roll this up....

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Point is, maybe you will say something, and I will change to this.....

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it's effectively the same thing..... so what do you do, tell me (or my opponent) i fouled now?? How do you handle it? When you come up with a good solution to that problem is when i start being swayed to your opinion And if your solution is 10ball, i will scream and jump for joy, believe me.

I suppose the first thing I would do is ask you if you are pattern racking, and give you the opportunity to also lie to me in addition to cheat me. Frankly, that's probably as far as I would go with it unless I was really pissed in which case I would call in the TD and let him sort it out. If nothing comes of it, which it probably won't, nothing comes of it except maybe the TD keeps his eye on you or takes over the racking. But I certainly would want no part of your action outside the need to play you if drawn in a tournament. Life's too short.

It makes no difference to me whether a player simply breaks this rule because he can, or only in response to his opponent pattern racking against him. I guess I'm a sap as you say, because I'm not going to do it just because my opponent did first.

I do agree we've been over this before and let's face it, we just don't see it the same way. We do agree that there are problems with the rule, maybe not in it's concept, but in the problem of enforcing it. But I do appreciate the discussion. :thumbup:

 

[Paul Schofield]

But is a rule that is unenforceable a rule?

I will admit, I can pattern rack in say 5 or 6 different ways (ie ball patterns), and get the same advantage. You can't enforce that.

Yes I can enforce it. Yes I do enforce it. I am not putting up with this crap in my events. I have run 7 events with over 200 players who all admittedly regularly pattern rack. There has not been a single instance of pattern racking...not one rack in nearly 10,000 racks. My events fly without getting bogged down with all this nonsense. I did something about it. I like my results. The players like it also.

You guys talk in circles. I say just fix it.