Right. The only skill they've developed is the skill of running over to get their jump cue.
Poll: Should Jump Shots Be Banned?
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Right. The only skill they've developed is the skill of running over to get their jump cue.
Why do people keep bringing this up? All you have to do is define the height off the table. If you went over a ball rather than around it then it's pretty obviously a jump, isn't it?
You don't seem to get something. The people you're challenging to a jump shot competition don't want to do jump shots. That's kind of like a weightlifter who uses steroids challenging a clean weightlifter to see who can use the most steroids.
So what you are saying then is that they are too lazy to learn a new skill? One that they say is bloody easy. After all you claim it's not a skill at all.
So why not take the easy money?
I get everything about this topic. You are only the 344,987,546th person to bring this topic up on the forum. Nothing you have said is new in the least. But just like every preacher you all think that if you trot out your nonsense arguments then those of us who know it skill will allow you to rant unchallenged.
Not me. Spout false comparisons, wrong metaphors, emotional nonsense and I will challenge every point and defeat it. Then the readers can decide which side they want to be on when it comes this subject.
The official rules are clear. In countries where pool is doing much better than the USA they don't have this issue. Those countries follow the world rules and they players practice their jumping with jump cue with no stigma and no guilt attached by zealots like yourself.
If you want to deprive yourself of skills then go ahead. No one is forcing you to learn anything. But don't try to impose your censorship on others on here with this subject or you will find me on the other side.
I think that's called demonization, isn't it?
It it called the truth. Demonization is when you spread falsehoods to assign evil character or intent to someone or something. Which is what you are doing to jump cues and those that support them.
This is an amazing thread. I knew I would like this forum. I got my first jump cue in 92 from Dan Janes. Love it. I have a break cue as well...and a masse cue.
Heck...it can look like I am showing up to play golf!
But I don't need anything but my JOSS playing cue when it comes down to it. I will even break with it. Yup...I will break with it....all 38 years worth of aged beauty of it....and jump with it....and masse with it. I dare say I will make any shot with it that I can make with my "specialty" cues. Just takes practice....that's all. Just practice.
Speaking of which....I am a little out of practice these days....but there was a time when I could jump with the best of them.....pro....road player....and otherwise.....and that was before I got a jump cue.
As far as I know my jump cue became "illegal" shortly after I got it....too short....not that I cared anyway.
So many people getting so heated about a little cue.
JB Cases...I wish I were not out of practice, I would have loved to take you up on that in days gone by. :thumbup:
Practice up. I am rusty also but just laid down some shots that would probably get the cash.
Well if you decide to start using some logic you could "jump" to the majority opinion and stop sweating every percentage point.
I must say, i just came across this statement and haven't really been following this entire thread.... but WHAT!!
I've seen guys dead hooked, normally in a position where they are maybe an 80% loser, jump over balls... pocket the ob (purposefully) and run out without the guy getting back to the table. That example and that alone let's you know the skill level has been raised. Nobody could have done that 50 years ago.
Why would one even consider kicking if you're guaranteed a good hit leaving the surface of the pool table intentionally
We should take a cue from the game of snooker - you can not intentionally leave the table surface to evade a ball. That would take care of it once and for all. Then you have no choice but to find a rail or two looking for the more skilled shot
New memo posted - 95% of the players who favor this short stick either sells them or is an inferior player
Just my opinion John ...
Do you buy the skill of drawing your ball when you purchase a piece of chalk?
No. You are buying the ability to draw your ball.
Because without chalk you can be Efren Reyes and any APA 4 who has chalk will be able to draw better.
When you purchase a jump cue you are not buying a skill any more than buying a stove make you a chef. All you are buying is a piece of wood that has been designed to be more comfortable to hold when performing a jump shot. It does not come with an automatic button.
Lol nice veiled insult. Well if by inferior you mean inferior to you then I can produce hundreds of players who love their jump cues whose names you don't know who will gamble with you until you and everyone you know and everyone they know is flat busted. Won't take long either.
Regarding your question of what shot choice player makes it's called playing the percentages. If the best option is a jump then the good player chooses the jump, if it a kick or masse then that is what is chosen. Sometimes the only choice is a jump shot.
Notice I said is is how a good player thinks. Only inferior players don't consider all the options. We arent talking about inferior players are we?
Because jump cues are legal around the world. The best players in the world are using them. So if you see an inferior player making the wrong choices by relying only on their jump cue when the right shot was a kick maybe you should offer them some advice to help them round out their game. Or you can tell them to give up the jump cue and work only on kick shots and then when they are in competition and the right shot is a jump shot they will not know what to do.
Your choice.
Edit: regarding snooker.
In snooker there is no requirement to hit the lowest numbered ball and a rail after contact. You can roll up on a ball to play safe. If the player at the table is snookered (hooked) then they can just roll up to the stack. If they miss the object ball then the incoming player must either take the shot where it lays or make the opponent continue to shoot the same shot until a legal hit is made. There is no need for a jump shot in snooker. In 8 ball, 9 ball, and 10 ball there is a need for it with the current rules.
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There's certainly no need to kick or masse' anymore because it's so easy and legal to jump.
Your protestations about how awfully hard it is to jump a ball are nonsense. If someone has a jump cue and thay can't execute a jump shot then odds are 9 to 1 they can't kick, masse', or carom to save their lives, either. That doesn't mean learning to jump a ball is hard. It just means there are a lot of lazy, non-motivated players in pool.
Also- the arguments by some that jump shots are just a normal advancement of the game are off base. Chalk that helps impart more spin, LD shafts that allow shots with less deflection, cue tips that impart more spin are changes that, if absolutely true, allow more or less of something that is a normal part of the game.
Jump shots are completely abnormal to the game of pool. They send the cueball 3 times the height of a ball sometimes and even those most proficient with them know it's a tossup where everything is going to end up. The cueball quite often goes flying off the table. If the OB is within one foot of the rail there's a high risk of sending something off the table. That's how SLOPPY these shots are.
Even the top players will jump when numerous kick paths are available. Because they like doing it the hard way? Probably not.
Come on. You honestly don't believe that.
I didn't SAY it was hard to do. I said that it's EASY to learn and HARD to master. JUST LIKE kick shots, and bank shots, and masse' shots.
Today I did an experiment with my people to see how long it took the people on may staff to make one rail and two rails kicks. These are people with NO formal instruction, no idea of how to measure a kick shot. It took the best player in my shop (the guy who can run three balls once in while btu has no clue about draw, follow or sidepsin) no more than three tries for most of the kick shots and no more than eight tries for the trickier ones.
It took him more than ten tries to get the cue ball to jump using the jump cue. And five more tries after that until he could hit the eight. Then he started to get more control but he was inconsistent.
So with both exercises he was able to get there through pure trial and error BUT he got there quicker with the kick shots.
You would lose that bet. Myself and Robin Dodson and every other person who sells jump cues at shows have seen plenty of otherwise good players who couldn't jump to save their lives.
Once again this is the root of my entire argument. Just because a person gets a jump cue in their hands does not mean that they can use it properly. I have had to take decent players and TEACH them the proper stroking technique. Once they got it then the light bulb went off and they were able to progress rapidly. But I had to develop at least three different methods to get through to people.
You can ask Melissa Morris who is a professional player. Her father is Ned Morris and Melissa has stood at my booth and watched us give lessons all in the service of selling the cue. Basically I HAD to be able to teach a person to jump in order to sell a cue. There is NO way that I would have been able to sell a lot of them had I simply put up a sign that said "Jump Cues $99" No way. First I demoed them them then the viewers wanted to try them and if they couldn't do it then there would be NO SALE until they could.
How so? The rules state that you must hit the object ball and drive it or the cue ball to a rail or the penalty is ball-in-hand for the incoming player. Thus the jump shot was discovered and has been in use for far longer than the jump cue. With the old rules where the hooked player could simply push out at any time the need for a jump shot was very seldom. With one-foul rules the need is great. Despite your ridiculous statement above there are plenty of shots where there is no reasonable option other than the jump shot. Many where there is a choice, and many where the jump shot is not available.
Once again jump shots have been around longer than most of us. They were part of the game long before jump cues came into existence. In fact there have been people on this forum who have said that they had jump cues in the 70s.
Sloppy for people who don't put in the time. It's people like you who perpetrate the myth that they are SO EASY to use that actually stop players from putting in the time to master the shots. For me the jump shot is fairly high percentage to accomplish a good hit and control the cue ball. Pretty decent odds to make the ball if I am shooting to make it. That is all a result of a lot of practice. Ask professional player Shawn Putnam what he thinks about it.
So your contention is that the professional player should NOT choose the option that they feel is highest percentage? And you contradict yourself.
If the jump shot is so sloppy and low percentage then the professional player who chooses it over a kick shot is really a dumbass huh? Maybe they know something that you don't. Quite possibly they know what shot is the best shot for them to try when they take a jump shot over a kick.
Why can't you see that the jump cue adds a lot of new shots to the game. Fans love it, players love it. The people who make the rules have evaluated it more than 16 years ago and found it to be worth allowing. Pool has not collapsed.
Funny, the Taiwanese practice a lot with the jump cue and they are deadly precise with them. Any coincidence that the Taiwanese are among the most feared players on the planet? They don't have these silly debates. Fong Pang Chao bought one from me in Las Vegas, used it to win the $50,000 Challenge of Champions against Bustamante and the legion of Taiwanese who came up after him learned to use the jump cue even better than he can.
And you know what Allen Hopkins said in the commentary of the Chao/Bustamante match? He diagrammed what Bustamante SHOULD have done to cut off the jump shot. Allen understood that the game requires a deeper level of thinking when the jump cue is available. If that's not evidence of adding skill then I don't know what is.
But rock on with your anti-jump cue message. Every time one of these polls is done the majority shows that players like and want their jump cues. People put plenty of logical arguments forth why jump cues are a good part of the game and so nothing will change.
I read through a lot of this thread today, and I feel what has been omitted is the general lack of control on the average jump shot. Sure a player can pocket the ball, and the more power to him. But i'd say in most instances, considering the nature of the jump shot, one loses control of the ob.
I think there is this strange underlying assumption weaved throughout this thread saying that you need ball in hand to get your "money's worth" out of a safety. That is totally ridiculous. In my mind, the point of safeties, at least in good pool, is to gain control.... which includes getting ball in hand, but it isn't necessary.
I think there is this strange underlying assumption weaved throughout this thread saying that you need ball in hand to get your "money's worth" out of a safety. That is totally ridiculous. In my mind, the point of safeties, at least in good pool, is to gain control.... which includes getting ball in hand, but it isn't necessary.
Didn't I say this was a bag of worms.
I ask again or rather rephrase. How do you enforce a no jump shot rule? How do you define an illegal jump. Below is a jump but I'd guess nobody thought of this if jumps are illegal. Also are we to rule on the players intentions or the results. Many shots that most would jump can also be played with a masse. Many masse shots cause the ball to leave the table. Screw up the masse shot and and get penalized for jumping. Its just another rule that does nothing but put the shooter in his chair.
If the jump cue is banned that is enforceable but I have no opinion on that since I don't play pocket games. One reason is arguing on silly do nothing rules in the taverns pushed me away. I'd rather just play.
THE ONE BALL DOES NOT FIT
I ask again or rather rephrase. How do you enforce a no jump shot rule? How do you define an illegal jump. Below is a jump but I'd guess nobody thought of this if jumps are illegal. Also are we to rule on the players intentions or the results. Many shots that most would jump can also be played with a masse. Many masse shots cause the ball to leave the table. Screw up the masse shot and and get penalized for jumping. Its just another rule that does nothing but put the shooter in his chair.
If the jump cue is banned that is enforceable but I have no opinion on that since I don't play pocket games. One reason is arguing on silly do nothing rules in the taverns pushed me away. I'd rather just play.
THE ONE BALL DOES NOT FIT