Bca league eight ball question

[Luxury]

In 8 ball weekly league play there are often scenarios where a single player only needs to make 4 balls in the racks to win the round or both the 4th and 5th round.

Well our player needed to make one more ball only to insure a team win for the final round. After his game our captain informed the player that he should have taken an intentional foul and hit his opponent's stripe ball first and pocketed the solid in the wired combo for the win and give up ball in hand. He explained it's no different than intentionally fouling by hitting your opponent's ball first to tie up balls when a good hit is doubtful.

Thoughts?

 

[KRJ]

hmmm

should have told him how many balls he needed before the game started. I've done this many times, and had it done to me a few. It's part of the game. If you need ball count, then you make the balls that you need.

No different than intentionally making one of his balls to clear a pocket when BIH will not help his situation anyways.

 

[J-Flo]

Its You or Them

In 8 ball weekly league play there are often scenarios where a single player only needs to make 4 balls in the racks to win the round or both the 4th and 5th round.

Well our player needed to make one more ball only to insure a team win for the final round. After his game our captain informed the player that he should have taken an intentional foul and hit his opponent's stripe ball first and pocketed the solid in the wired combo for the win and give up ball in hand. He explained it's no different than intentionally fouling by hitting your opponent's ball first to tie up balls when a good hit is doubtful.

Thoughts?

Use it on them , or they will use it on you.
Part of being good at this game is being smart. Knowing the rules. I call all fouls and never conceed to a loud mouth who dosent know the rules. Ive had guys forget to mark the pocket and cry like babys Intentional foul is a strong tool . Most dont think of it when they try to play safty on you.

VERY IMPORTANT: MAKE SURE YOU ONLY NEED ONE BALL BEFOR YOU GIVE HM THE ROCK. MEASURE ONCE...

 

[Luxury]

He was told how many balls he needed as we always do. He just never thought of it.

 

[Snapshot9]

Absolutely

he should have done that. My question is how come the team captain didn't call a timeout when he should have? and told him what to do?

 

[ctyhntr]

In your league do balls pocketed on a foul count, or just stay down? If its the former, then the captain made the right choice to take advantage of this loophole.

 

[Luxury]

All balls stay down and there are no time-outs in Bca.

 

[onepocketron]

he should have done that. My question is how come the team captain didn't call a timeout when he should have? and told him what to do?

No coaching or communicating of any kind allowed. You can say "good shot" or something of this nature but that's it. When you are playing, you are on your own.

 

[TheBook]

.


I must be missing something. Why not just shoot a ball in legally instead of trying to do something that may cause a controversy?


I always heard about the BCA being way better than the APA. I joined a BCA team and on the first night my last game was against the LO. He broke made a ball and then scratched on the next shot. I had BIH and luckily ran out the table. He then said to me that all he needed was one ball for the match, and totals and intentionally scratched to keep his ball count down. Good impression on the first night.


.

 

[lorider]

.


I must be missing something. Why not just shoot a ball in legally instead of trying to do something that may cause a controversy?


I always heard about the BCA being way better than the APA. I joined a BCA team and on the first night my last game was against the LO. He broke made a ball and then scratched on the next shot. I had BIH and luckily ran out the table. He then said to me that all he needed was one ball for the match, and totals and intentionally scratched to keep his ball count down. Good impression on the first night.


.

i agree with you book. i think its ludicrous to win a game with an illegal shot.

another rule i dont like is being credited with all balls down. example; your opponent breaks and makes 2 solids and 1 stripe. he elects to shoot stripes because they are laid out better. during the game there is a stripe and solid hanging in a corner pocket. he makes a good hit and both balls fall. you are credited with 3 points and havent even made a shot yet. thats not an accurate of how you played that game.

sorry to hi jack your thread luxury, just giving my opinion on what i think are a couple of dumb rules.

 

[tatcat2000]

Official BCAPL response

Concerning OP situation and some of the comments to this point...

Lux, your point has not gone without notice at the National Office. Before stating where the BCAPL Office currently stands, please note the following:

* Across the BCAPL world and BCAPL leagues, there are almost as many different handicapping and scoring systems as there are leagues. No comment about any given scoring/handicapping situation can be necessarily considered to apply to multiple organizations.

* The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League are written primarily contemplating non-handicapped singles play. Handicapping systems and most team-related functions of the rules (time outs, coaching, etc.) are left to Administrative Authority (read: league operators). Even at BCAPL Nationals, we add almost 14 pages of additional regulations to supplement the BCAPL Rule Book, and a good deal of that information deals with team play and the situations it creates that are not covered by the book.

* I frequently see various comments in many threads - not just this one - that assume the total imposition of the basic rule book on BCAPL league play. Persons making those comments need to realize that the team situations created by league play are nearly always addressed at the local level, and are often needed to be to keep constituencies stable. BCAPL Rule 9.9 conditionally authorizes Administrative Authorities to alter rules.

Now to the OP's point. The principle of the issue was addressed by the National Office last year in a similar discussion regarding USAPL matches, which also use a point-based system. The specific question addressed was intentionally driving a ball off the table to score the last point, but the gist is the same. The question raised was whether to write a USAPL rule requiring that the point scored to put a match mathematically out of reach should be required to be scored with a legally pocketed ball.

In short, the National Office declined to write such a rule for the USAPL, but left the subject open for for future consideration. The discussion, which required a failry quick answer at the time, was basically tabled for more consideration. It was quickly realized that the situation presented a serious rat's nest of problems with determining intent in many situations, as well as the possibliltiy of having to introduce unneccessarily complicated scoring contingencies. Again, however, it may be revisited next year or later.

Please also note again, as stated in the third bullet above, that there is nothing that prevents any individual league from writing a local regulation to cover the situation as they see fit.
:smile:

Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net

Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:

http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx

* The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Neither I nor any BCAPL referee make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 and the BCAPL Rules "Statement of Principles" apply.
* No reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post unless specifically stated.
* For General Rules, 8-Ball, 9-Ball, 10-Ball, and 14.1 Continuous: there is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules" for those games. The BCA has no rules committee. The BCA does not edit, nor is responsible for the content of, the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials. The BCAPL maintains what we consider to be the most structured, complete and intensive referee training program available.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA. The letters "BCA" in BCAPL do not stand for "Billiard Congress of America, nor for anything at all.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
* All BCAPL members are, as always, encouraged to e-mail Bill Stock at the BCAPL National Office, bill@playcsi.com, with any comments, concerns or suggestions about the BCAPL rules.

 

[ctyhntr]

Sounds like your next step is to convince your league operator to close this loophole; not allow scoring of a legal point on an intentional foul.

 

[bud02]

i agree with you book. i think its ludicrous to win a game with an illegal shot.

another rule i dont like is being credited with all balls down. example; your opponent breaks and makes 2 solids and 1 stripe. he elects to shoot stripes because they are laid out better. during the game there is a stripe and solid hanging in a corner pocket. he makes a good hit and both balls fall. you are credited with 3 points and havent even made a shot yet. thats not an accurate of how you played that game.

sorry to hi jack your thread luxury, just giving my opinion on what i think are a couple of dumb rules.

Winning the game and winning the round are two different things. The team round score and over all do add another dimension to the game. No way around it. League being a team sport, a shooter going to the table knowing 4 balls are needed for A TEAM WIN should change the way he plays the table, reads the pattern. He should first be playing the pattern to pocket 4 balls, after that's completed then shoot the game win. The reality is this may change the way a player will chose to shoot the table pattern. In the first case your playing for 4 balls, in the second your playing for 8 if no balls are pocketed. In this case giving ball in hand and perhaps the "GAME WIN" to the opponent to bring home a "TEAM WIN", well the question should be are you a team player or are you simply concerned with adding to your personal stats.

Another scenario, could have been, not taking the wired combo foul "for the team win" which was the case. Your opponent comes to the table unaware that you and your team only need 1 ball for a two round win. Hes simply looking at getting out, so he pockets a ball that caroms the CB off the wired combo to break out his ball pocketing your ball. Well as you can see he just gave way a two round victory in a 5 round contest, not a smart TEAM move but he gets out securing a positive improvement to his personal score.

As you can see it works both ways, It really boils down to team winning or game winning the two are not always the same in a close match. Going to the table ignorant of the teams score is just that. The rules are not the problem its simply a close match between two teams where knowledge of the score and rules carries a lot of weight. Both teams have the opportunity to play the table lay that is most advantageous for themselves according to the rules.

To me the game described adds to the excitement and entertainment. Pool IMO is both skill and strategy. Sounds to me like it was a very exciting match.

 

[Mickey Qualls]

.... To me the game described adds to the excitement and entertainment. Pool IMO is both skill and strategy. Sounds to me like it was a very exciting match.

Well said, bud02,

I might add that it's these types of situations that entice novice players into the BCA leagues. Even if the "newbie" doesn't win the game, s/he can still win the round or match, based on the ball count.
Basically, each stripe or solid is worth 1 point, the eight ball is worth three points. Depending on what the handicap is, some of the 'novice' players on the team only need to make balls, and the team can still win the round/match.

I played in a BCA league a while back that was scored the same way. We were the 'away' team, and I was the last player in the last round. My opponent had to hold me to zero (meaning if I make just one ball, his team loses the round, and consequently, the match). He broke, made a stripe on the break, and had a layout to drool over. No clusters, nothing touching a rail, a couple of hangers, etc. I regulated myself to the chair, figuring he was going to run out on me.
And he did....... but he took solids. Final score was 10-1. He came over, shook my hand and apologized.
I said, "Don't worry about it, it's cool. It was a nice run. Hey, you won the game, but we won the match".
His team told him that he needed to win, but they didn't explain that he needed to win 10-0. He was livid...... not with me, with his team.

And I've been on the other end of this as well. I've been the last guy in the round, and have to hold my opponent to two balls. I'll break, make two solids, and at least two more solids decide to hang out with each other in the middle of the short rail.
Of course the stripes are spread out like nobody's business. But to win the round for my team, I have to take solids and try to get out.

Until there is a rule that specifically addresses not using your opponent's ball to make your own (to win the game/match/trip), then if the opportunity ever presents itself, I will indeed use 'your' ball to make 'my' ball so my team can win.

 

[lorider]

Winning the game and winning the round are two different things. The team round score and over all do add another dimension to the game. No way around it. League being a team sport, a shooter going to the table knowing 4 balls are needed for A TEAM WIN should change the way he plays the table, reads the pattern. He should first be playing the pattern to pocket 4 balls, after that's completed then shoot the game win. The reality is this may change the way a player will chose to shoot the table pattern. In the first case your playing for 4 balls, in the second your playing for 8 if no balls are pocketed. In this case giving ball in hand and perhaps the "GAME WIN" to the opponent to bring home a "TEAM WIN", well the question should be are you a team player or are you simply concerned with adding to your personal stats.

Another scenario, could have been, not taking the wired combo foul "for the team win" which was the case. Your opponent comes to the table unaware that you and your team only need 1 ball for a two round win. Hes simply looking at getting out, so he pockets a ball that caroms the CB off the wired combo to break out his ball pocketing your ball. Well as you can see he just gave way a two round victory in a 5 round contest, not a smart TEAM move but he gets out securing a positive improvement to his personal score.

As you can see it works both ways, It really boils down to team winning or game winning the two are not always the same in a close match. Going to the table ignorant of the teams score is just that. The rules are not the problem its simply a close match between two teams where knowledge of the score and rules carries a lot of weight. Both teams have the opportunity to play the table lay that is most advantageous for themselves according to the rules.

To me the game described adds to the excitement and entertainment. Pool IMO is both skill and strategy. Sounds to me like it was a very exciting match.

i played in the bcapl league for 1 year when it was here. it was the 1st league i played in and i enjoyed it very much.

i agree with you that pool involves both skill and strategy and that it also sounds like it was a very exciting match.

what i dont like is being able to win a match without ever making a shot as in the above case.

i ramember an apa bashing thread a while back where some bcapl players were critisizing apa 9 ball as not being real pool because they are playing for points. is not bcapl 8 ball in the same category ?

at least in apa 9 ball you have to earn each point where as in bcapl you are credited for balls you never made.

it is entirely possible during a 5 game match up for a player to be credited 4 or 5 points for balls he never made. is that a true reflection of how well he played or what affect it has on his handicap ?