Subconscious.....

The Renfro

The Renfro

Outsville.com
Silver Member
So here is the deal... I got the Rempe training balls thrown in when I purchased my table. Had seen them before but never actually played around with them.... Goofing off today I decided to see how accurate my tip contact was on the cueball...

Center ball was stellar as was everything within a tip and a half of center... When I tried to hit the cueball outside of tip and a half I noticed a strange thing happening... I couldn't do it... I would go to hit the cueball as low as possible and my subconscious would bring me back into the tip and a half radius... I would try extreme left, right, and top and my brain wouldn't let me do it... I'd look at the mark on the cueball and I was always in the safe zone....

So now what? I get all the spin I want. apparently inside of the safe zone... So do I just quit trying to hit outside of the zone or do I try and get the subconscious to allow me to move further out on the cueball... I am leaning towards the former.....

In all honesty I know extreme english is a big no no so I think the subconscious is doing me a favor... It's just kind of cool to be consciously aware that it is doing it.. The correction may be causing some misses that I can now eliminate by staying inside my comfort radius......
 
It seems smarter to practice your stroke until you can get the precision to hit the cue ball exactly where you want all the time, and not rely on an unconscious muscle jerk to keep you safe.

It's good that it works for you, but I don't think we should ever give up trying to be even better.
 
Sometimes you need that extreme spin, so I say go for it. Its use opens up lanes you couldnt access otherwise.
 
The Renfro said:
So here is the deal... I got the Rempe training balls thrown in when I purchased my table. Had seen them before but never actually played around with them.... Goofing off today I decided to see how accurate my tip contact was on the cueball...

Center ball was stellar as was everything within a tip and a half of center... When I tried to hit the cueball outside of tip and a half I noticed a strange thing happening... I couldn't do it... I would go to hit the cueball as low as possible and my subconscious would bring me back into the tip and a half radius... I would try extreme left, right, and top and my brain wouldn't let me do it... I'd look at the mark on the cueball and I was always in the safe zone....

So now what? I get all the spin I want. apparently inside of the safe zone... So do I just quit trying to hit outside of the zone or do I try and get the subconscious to allow me to move further out on the cueball... I am leaning towards the former.....

In all honesty I know extreme english is a big no no so I think the subconscious is doing me a favor... It's just kind of cool to be consciously aware that it is doing it.. The correction may be causing some misses that I can now eliminate by staying inside my comfort radius......
Click to expand...

Parallels with my centre CB striking thread, i think. The marks on the Rempe training ball do not tell the full story - they only tell you where you've hit the ball, not how. Striking down slightly will swerve the ball off target if you stray from the centre, but this is not that much of an issue if you keep the cue level, for instance.

You need to know exactly how you've delivered the cue as much as where you've hit the CB.
 
angldemn said:
It seems smarter to practice your stroke until you can get the precision to hit the cue ball exactly where you want all the time, and not rely on an unconscious muscle jerk to keep you safe.

It's good that it works for you, but I don't think we should ever give up trying to be even better.
Click to expand...

Thats the kicker... I am dead on until I move outside of what I would call the safe zone.... And I think there is a difference between an unconscious jerk and a Subconscious adjustment but I do understand the line of thinking.....
 
Neil said:
Since you are getting all the spin you need, I wouldn't worry about. It just goes to show the power of the subconscious. If you ever do need extreme spin, just consciously choke up on the cue (bring everything closer to the cb,bridge hand and back hand too.), pause, and make a nice accelerating stroke right into the spot you want to hit on the cb.
Click to expand...

That is food for thought Neil... If I alter my setup only for those instances in a very specific way I might be able to get the subconscious to ride along for awhile until it's comfortable that we are not about to take some old lady out in the front row when we go super low........
 
Try videotaping yourself, and see if you're changing your stance and your arm steering the cue.
 
TheThaiger said:
Parallels with my centre CB striking thread, i think. The marks on the Rempe training ball do not tell the full story - they only tell you where you've hit the ball, not how. Striking down slightly will swerve the ball off target if you stray from the centre, but this is not that much of an issue if you keep the cue level, for instance.

You need to know exactly how you've delivered the cue as much as where you've hit the CB.
Click to expand...

I consciously try to control my attack angle on every shot in order to be able to predict what the table friction, squirt and swerve are going to do... Thats why I think these subconscious adjustments are not completely a good thing....

I tried to nip draw using a downstroke and hit higher than intended which tells me I was dropping the arm or flexing the wrist to get the tip up so I was fighting what I was attempting todo.... That was when I stopped to start this thread.....
 
You could try hitting some really soft shots with a lot of low English and try to maintain the feeling and the stroke gradually hitting harder.

Starting off with a power draw may be what's slowing you down.
 
The Renfro said:
I consciously try to control my attack angle on every shot in order to be able to predict what the table friction, squirt and swerve are going to do... Thats why I think these subconscious adjustments are not completely a good thing....

I tried to nip draw using a downstroke and hit higher than intended which tells me I was dropping the arm or flexing the wrist to get the tip up so I was fighting what I was attempting todo.... That was when I stopped to start this thread.....
Click to expand...

Despite what others may say, I'd advise against thinking too much about the game - let your natural game come to the fore.

I'm not sure how good those that are flogging the advice actually are. Find your own path.
 
The Renfro said:
I consciously try to control my attack angle on every shot in order to be able to predict what the table friction, squirt and swerve are going to do... Thats why I think these subconscious adjustments are not completely a good thing....

I tried to nip draw using a downstroke and hit higher than intended which tells me I was dropping the arm or flexing the wrist to get the tip up so I was fighting what I was attempting todo.... That was when I stopped to start this thread.....
Click to expand...

The Renfro:

First, the mind is a very powerful tool. But as you noticed with the Rempe training balls, it can also get in its own way. It's a case of "The Inner Game of Tennis" thing.

The fact that the Rempe training balls have all these "target" markings (and text) on it, attracts the conscious mind, not the subconscious. Reading text and markings is a conscious activity, not a subconscious one. Practice is about utilizing the conscious mind to analyze what you're doing, then later commit it to the subconscious. So in the spirit of that, the Rempe training balls were designed with all these markings to engage the conscious mind. "High Right," "Low Left," etc. The purpose for this ball is to explore, with the conscious mind, these methods of hitting the ball to observe the behavior. This ball is NOT for embedding shots into the subconscious -- that's for AFTER using the Rempe training balls, to then apply the knowledge to standard pool balls, and practice hitting the shots, embedding the knowledge into muscle memory.

The fact that you're finding you're having difficult hitting outside the "targets" is no surprise -- that's your conscious mind intervening, submitting to the ball saying "hit me here." Replace that ball with a standard cue ball, and what happens? You can do anything you want, because there's no markings and text on the cue ball to pull your conscious mind to the fore.

I hope this is helpful,
-Sean
 
I like that post, sfleinen.

With that in mind, you could always move your target around on the cue ball and see if you can hit "low right" when it's actually turned to "extreme bottom insane hairy draw".

See if you can hit the target when the target's outside the safe zone. :-)

sfleinen said:
The Renfro:

First, the mind is a very powerful tool. But as you noticed with the Rempe training balls, it can also get in its own way. It's a case of "The Inner Game of Tennis" thing.

The fact that the Rempe training balls have all these "target" markings (and text) on it, attracts the conscious mind, not the subconscious. Reading text and markings is a conscious activity, not a subconscious one. Practice is about utilizing the conscious mind to analyze what you're doing, then later commit it to the subconscious. So in the spirit of that, the Rempe training balls were designed with all these markings to engage the conscious mind. "High Right," "Low Left," etc. The purpose for this ball is to explore, with the conscious mind, these methods of hitting the ball to observe the behavior. This ball is NOT for embedding shots into the subconscious -- that's for AFTER using the Rempe training balls, to then apply the knowledge to standard pool balls, and practice hitting the shots, embedding the knowledge into muscle memory.

The fact that you're finding you're having difficult hitting outside the "targets" is no surprise -- that's your conscious mind intervening, submitting to the ball saying "hit me here." Replace that ball with a standard cue ball, and what happens? You can do anything you want, because there's no markings and text on the cue ball to pull your conscious mind to the fore.

I hope this is helpful,
-Sean
Click to expand...
 
walrus_3d said:
I like that post, sfleinen.

With that in mind, you could always move your target around on the cue ball and see if you can hit "low right" when it's actually turned to "extreme bottom insane hairy draw".

See if you can hit the target when the target's outside the safe zone. :-)
Click to expand...

That's a very good way of approaching this -- to turn that Rempe ball such that it's no longer aligned correctly, and see if you can turn your conscious mind on its ear. See who wins out in that tennis match -- the conscious mind, or the subconscious.

Will the conscious mind keep the cue on the target, because it says to "hit me here"? Or will the subconscious mind intervene, and say "no dummy, you hit there, and you'll miscue!" Stay tuned until our next episode, when The Renfro returns with the results...

:p

-Sean
 
sfleinen said:
That's a very good way of approaching this -- to turn that Rempe ball such that it's no longer aligned correctly, and see if you can turn your conscious mind on its ear. See who wins out in that tennis match -- the conscious mind, or the subconscious.

Will the conscious mind keep the cue on the target, because it says to "hit me here"? Or will the subconscious mind intervene, and say "no dummy, you hit there, and you'll miscue!" Stay tuned until our next episode, when The Renfro returns with the results...

:p

-Sean
Click to expand...

Had to take the girl to a school dance so just got to the house... I think you may be on to something Sean and gonna try Walrus's idea and set the target outside of my safe area... I can see where maybe the target was engaging my mind in ways a regular ball would not.... Will post the results in a few....

Thanks for the ideas and feedback :thumbup:
 
The Renfro said:
That is food for thought Neil... If I alter my setup only for those instances in a very specific way I might be able to get the subconscious to ride along for awhile until it's comfortable that we are not about to take some old lady out in the front row when we go super low........
Click to expand...

You have the right idea here. Tell your self that you want to try some new things to see what will happen. The sub / unconscious will play along for awhile. It too is looking to learn new things that work. The idea here is to “have a little talk with your self first.” In this way the sub / unconscious will be willing to experiment. It then knows that you will have “no problem” going back to the “old” way when the trials are over. And if some thing new is learned the sub / unconscious is usually more than willing to go along.

I have used this technique for years when doing therapy with people and it does work quite well as long as everything is well understood.

Just to be clear, the subconscious consists of those things that you can easily bring into consciousness when there is a need to deal with it, such as adjusting your socks because they are irritating. Usually we are not aware of our socks but the subconscious monitors all sorts of things that are usually out of awareness.

The unconscious contains things that you cannot usually bring into consciousness very easily, such as why you find tall blonds sexy. This side of you can get upset when you criticize yourself or do not respond to what it perceives as important topics. You can get some ideas about what bothers the unconscious by noticing things that irritate you when you don't expect it. That "little talk" is actually with your unconscious and you are asking it not to interfere with subconscious processes. Sounds more complicated than it is in practice.
 
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JoeW said:
You have the right idea here. Tell your self that you want to try some new things to see what will happen. The sub / unconscious will play along for awhile. It too is looking to learn new things that work. The idea here is to “have a little talk with your self first.” In this way the sub / unconscious will be willing to experiment. It then knows that you will have “no problem” going back to the “old” way when the trials are over. And if some thing new is learned the sub / unconscious is usually more than willing to go along.

I have used this technique for years when doing therapy with people and it does work quite well as long as everything is well understood.

Just to be clear, the subconscious consists of those things that you can easily bring into consciousness when there is a need to deal with it, such as adjusting your socks because they are irritating. Usually we are not aware of our socks but the subconscious monitors all sorts of things that are usually out of awareness.

The unconscious contains things that you cannot usually bring into consciousness very easily, such as why you find tall blonds sexy. This side of you can get upset when you criticize yourself or do not respond to what it perceives as important topics. You can get some ideas about what bothers the unconscious by noticing things that irritate you when you don't expect it. That "little talk" is actually with your unconscious and you are asking it not to interfere with subconscious processes. Sounds more complicated than it is in practice.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the feedback Joe:thumbup:

I just went down and spent some time in the basement and I tried orienting the actual target to center on where I wanted to hit and the results were indeed improved. The one area that refused to improve much was the extreme below center hit.... I miscued a few times trying to hit extremely low to start the session tho so I think I reinforced the subconscious adjustment instead of disarming it... I will give it some time and have that talk with myself again and see what happens on my next attempt...

I even tried Neils idea of shortening the bridge and altering the setup but I had already hit the miscues so there was no way to talk myself into not adjusting..... I may throw some blankets on the floor next time to help lower the risk assessed... My basement floor is concrete and I hate bouncing cue balls across it...
 
The Renfro said:
Thanks for the feedback Joe:thumbup:

I just went down and spent some time in the basement and I tried orienting the actual target to center on where I wanted to hit and the results were indeed improved. The one area that refused to improve much was the extreme below center hit.... I miscued a few times trying to hit extremely low to start the session tho so I think I reinforced the subconscious adjustment instead of disarming it... I will give it some time and have that talk with myself again and see what happens on my next attempt...

I even tried Neils idea of shortening the bridge and altering the setup but I had already hit the miscues so there was no way to talk myself into not adjusting..... I may throw some blankets on the floor next time to help lower the risk assessed... My basement floor is concrete and I hate bouncing cue balls across it...
Click to expand...

Try LONGER bridge when hitting extreme low on the cue ball. That's what he calls, "Buddy Low". (Buddy Hall) If you have a very thin shaft you will not be able to hit Buddy Low. If you have anything close to a 13mm you will be able to hit Buddy Low and it is very low with a long bridge and no miscue. I don't use it often because my shaft is close to 12MM that 1MM difference makes a difference to my unconscious mind. :smile: I would bet that my Buddy Low shot is not as low as I think it is. On long distance draw shots, I seldom use Buddy Low. I've always thought that was strange but I have NO success with Buddy Low power draw, long distance draw shots.
 
sfleinen said:
The Renfro:

First, the mind is a very powerful tool. But as you noticed with the Rempe training balls, it can also get in its own way. It's a case of "The Inner Game of Tennis" thing.

The fact that the Rempe training balls have all these "target" markings (and text) on it, attracts the conscious mind, not the subconscious. Reading text and markings is a conscious activity, not a subconscious one. Practice is about utilizing the conscious mind to analyze what you're doing, then later commit it to the subconscious. So in the spirit of that, the Rempe training balls were designed with all these markings to engage the conscious mind. "High Right," "Low Left," etc. The purpose for this ball is to explore, with the conscious mind, these methods of hitting the ball to observe the behavior. This ball is NOT for embedding shots into the subconscious -- that's for AFTER using the Rempe training balls, to then apply the knowledge to standard pool balls, and practice hitting the shots, embedding the knowledge into muscle memory.

The fact that you're finding you're having difficult hitting outside the "targets" is no surprise -- that's your conscious mind intervening, submitting to the ball saying "hit me here." Replace that ball with a standard cue ball, and what happens? You can do anything you want, because there's no markings and text on the cue ball to pull your conscious mind to the fore.

I hope this is helpful,
-Sean
Click to expand...

Sean,

Let me go ahead and speak for everybody on AZ in regards to all of your posts. I'm growing tired of all of your posts being so spot on. Frankly, it's getting a bit annoying. How about you throw a "miscue on the break" type of post in there from time-to-time like the rest of us do.

Getting frustrated :nono:
 
JoeyA said:
Try LONGER bridge when hitting extreme low on the cue ball. That's what he calls, "Buddy Low". (Buddy Hall) If you have a very thin shaft you will not be able to hit Buddy Low. If you have anything close to a 13mm you will be able to hit Buddy Low and it is very low with a long bridge and no miscue. I don't use it often because my shaft is close to 12MM that 1MM difference makes a difference to my unconscious mind. :smile: I would bet that my Buddy Low shot is not as low as I think it is. On long distance draw shots, I seldom use Buddy Low. I've always thought that was strange but I have NO success with Buddy Low power draw, long distance draw shots.
Click to expand...

Heyas Joey :thumbup:

I usually use about an 11 inch bridge and do sometimes go longer on the power draw shots... I always felt the longer bridge allowed for a more level cue and would reduce the lever effect that I seem to be getting somehow subconsciously.....

That does open another can of worms mentioning Buddy tho... Any time someone mentions him I automatically word associate bridge.... I may see if I can alter my bridge instead of bridge length to lower the fulcrum point.......
 
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