Espn

[Zbotiman]

Well stated!

ESPN does NOT pay for any production costs to film pool tournaments. The WPBA pays a production company to film their events. They have that edited and it gets turned over to ESPN. At this point ESPN owns the rights to the film and they decide whether to air it or not and when and how often.

It costs something between $50,000 and $60,000 to have a high quality production for the final 4 matches of a WPBA tournament.

So, theoretically anybody could get a pool tournament on ESPN. They would have to shoulder the production costs and then turn it over to ESPN.

Well stated!
For these reason's, the WPBA's exclusive with ESPN, and the aforementioned "money" problems with production costs and broadcasting rites, it's quite possible, "You may never see Men's pool on ESPN (in these United States) ever again!"
Now that's a statement nobody wants to hear, however, as it stands today, there is "NO INTEREST WHAT-SO-EVER," in televised, broadcasting, of any Men's Pool event in the U.S.!!!
Soooo-----sad, but, true.:crying:

 

[mikefeiman]

For the record, ESPN does show the Billiards International Challenge of Champions which this year featured Darren Appleton and Mika Immonen as well as a couple of other players. It was filmed in October and will air in December. Not a traditional tournament setting, but it is men's pro 9 ball.

 

[paksat]

Well, you answer the question yourself. Pool is fun to play but has little value as a spectator sport and that is where money comes from. To be successful it has to be something that can gain appeal to the non player. I watch Golf every week although I have only played maybe a half dozen times in my life. Pool can't depend only on the hardcore fans, who by the way have proven they won't pay to watch.

It is funny, if you have ever run tournaments as I have you can't get spectators no matter what you do. I have run tournaments in pool rooms with players like Buddy Hall, Miz and so on. You know what happens? The phone never stops ringing, not asking about the tournament but wanting to know when it will be over and the room reopens so they can come down and play. This is just a fact and not meant to be some cynical nay-sayer spouting off. There is little you could point to that could be used as a pitch to bring fresh money into the sport, it's history of failure is all to well known. Pool is as I said before a very popular amateur sport far more fun to play then watch. I have no doubt much can be done that can grow the industry and help fill pool rooms with fresh blood but as a professional sport it is a dead end.

The fact that someone will spend big bucks on a cue says nothing about the sport. It just means they like nice cues and maybe like to play. They still won't support the tournaments and neither will the guy they bought that $2000.00 cue from.

Tell that to the filipinos who fill shopping malls to the extreme that it is not a spectator sport. Stop being so damn pessimistic, the old ways sucked and that's the only thing that has been proven. It is more of a spectator sport than freaking poker is which is hugely popular so please, stop with the negativity

 

[macguy]

Tell that to the filipinos who fill shopping malls to the extreme that it is not a spectator sport. Stop being so damn pessimistic, the old ways sucked and that's the only thing that has been proven. It is more of a spectator sport than freaking poker is which is hugely popular so please, stop with the negativity

What, you are talking about people who some don't even have electric or running water. For them it is a real luxury to watch some pool for a few hours. Flood those same people with the modern life we live and watch how fast they find other things to do with their time.

Poker by the way is not that hugely popular. It is underwritten by casinos and aimed at a small focused audience. I doubt in the general public you could find 1 in 10,000 who could name a single professional poker player. It is not popular, it is self sponsored. Also, take out the big money they throw around and no one would watch poker either.

How is being honest negative? To have a productive discussion you have to start with a real world perspective, not wishful thinking or fantasy.

 

[paksat]

What, you are talking about people who some don't even have electric or running water. For them it is a real luxury to watch some pool for a few hours. Flood those same people with the modern life we live and watch how fast they find other things to do with their time.

Poker by the way is not that hugely popular. It is underwritten by casinos and aimed at a small focused audience. I doubt in the general public you could find 1 in 10,000 who could name a single professional poker player. It is not popular, it is self sponsored. Also, take out the big money they throw around and no one would watch poker either.

How is being honest negative? To have a productive discussion you have to start with a real world perspective, not wishful thinking or fantasy.

Every single one of my friends ( almost ) plays poker, guess what? They also watch it on ESPN. I don't even play it and I can name a pro off the top of my head because it's all over television. I'm going to assume you think baseball is more exciting to watch than pool is? Because a lot of people spectate it and I find it to be more terribly boring than a hot dog eating contest.

If you tell someone you're a professional poker player they'll go "ahhh cool I've seen that".. if you tell them you're a pro pool player they will laugh at you.

It comes down to marketing, we've had poor characters and terrible business men in this business. And guess what, the "Sport" is what it is because of it. Some people can sell sand in the middle of the desert, these people are not involved in pool.

 

[paksat]

Two words "Mosconi cup"

If you can't agree that it's a spectator sport watching that, then I just don't even know what to say.

 

[macguy]

Every single one of my friends ( almost ) plays poker, guess what? They also watch it on ESPN. I don't even play it and I can name a pro off the top of my head because it's all over television. I'm going to assume you think baseball is more exciting to watch than pool is? Because a lot of people spectate it and I find it to be more terribly boring than a hot dog eating contest.

If you tell someone you're a professional poker player they'll go "ahhh cool I've seen that".. if you tell them you're a pro pool player they will laugh at you.

It comes down to marketing, we've had poor characters and terrible business men in this business. And guess what, the "Sport" is what it is because of it. Some people can sell sand in the middle of the desert, these people are not involved in pool.

You don't represent the general public. I am sure you can name many of the players in this years US Open 9-ball but that doesn't mean anything to the general public.

Poker is underwritten by casinos and like I said, aimed at a small focus audience, such as you and your friends. It is not on TV because it draws great ratings, it can almost be compared to an infomercial for casinos. You can choose to live in la la land but you have to live in the real world if you are to address the problems that hamper pool.

If there was a market for pool you could not keep it off TV or away from the public, they would demand it. These geniuses you mention would be out there pitching pool. But when it takes a con man or someone who can sell sand in the desert to sell pool, what does that tell you about the product. You say it comes down to marketing, to who, the public doesn't want it.

The answer is this, pool like sports such as body building, karate, model boat racing, skateboarding or any number of other almost cult like sports have a small and usually loyal following who will support the sport. The public in general will never flock to a body building competition of pay to watch karate, "So What". These sports figured out long ago where their market is and they focus like a laser on it.

Pool on the other hand has long lived in fantasy land as to what they want to compare themselves to. They want to be Golf, or Basketball when it is never going to happen. Here is the major problem with pool. It is a sport/game that is more interesting and fun to play then watch, that is a fact. Even the most hardcore pool lovers can not be depended on for
financial support. They have proven it over and over for many years. In fact they would rather sneak in under the curtain before paying. It is just the way it is.

Even a tournament like the US Open gets no national press. No sports programs, who report on like everything on the planet sports related, carried the results of the US Open. No one cares and like I said before, "So What". It is a great game I enjoy playing everyday and have for close to 60 years.

Contrary for a popular belief, pool is doing pretty well. Millions of players play in all kinds of venues, leagues are probably bigger now then ever before. Unfortunately, it is not a sport one can make a living at as a player. This is not a negative by the way, the same can be said about almost every Olympic sport. Some things you do because you love it, the rewards come in a different way.

 

[macguy]

Every single one of my friends ( almost ) plays poker, guess what? They also watch it on ESPN. I don't even play it and I can name a pro off the top of my head because it's all over television. I'm going to assume you think baseball is more exciting to watch than pool is? Because a lot of people spectate it and I find it to be more terribly boring than a hot dog eating contest.

If you tell someone you're a professional poker player they'll go "ahhh cool I've seen that".. if you tell them you're a pro pool player they will laugh at you.

It comes down to marketing, we've had poor characters and terrible business men in this business. And guess what, the "Sport" is what it is because of it. Some people can sell sand in the middle of the desert, these people are not involved in pool.

The one thing you are missing is, it doesn't matter what you and I like, it takes the general public to make something a success. You don't like baseball it would seem so you instantly make the leap no one else should like it either regardless of any facts to the contrary. That kind of thinking gets you no where.

 

[Zbotiman]

Smart

You don't represent the general public. I am sure you can name many of the players in this years US Open 9-ball but that doesn't mean anything to the general public.

Poker is underwritten by casinos and like I said, aimed at a small focus audience, such as you and your friends. It is not on TV because it draws great ratings, it can almost be compared to an infomercial for casinos. You can choose to live in la la land but you have to live in the real world if you are to address the problems that hamper pool.

If there was a market for pool you could not keep it off TV or away from the public, they would demand it. These geniuses you mention would be out there pitching pool. But when it takes a con man or someone who can sell sand in the desert to sell pool, what does that tell you about the product. You say it comes down to marking, to who, the public doesn't
want it.

The answer is this, pool like sports such as body building, karate or a number of other almost cult like sports have a small and usually loyal following who will support the sport. The public in general will never flock to a body building competition of pay to watch karate, "So What". These sports figured out long ago where their market is and they focus like a laser on it.

Pool on the other hand has long lived in fantasy land as to what they want to compare themselves to. They want to be Golf, or Basketball when it is never going to happen. Here is the major problem with pool. It is a sport/game that is more interesting and fun to play then watch, that is a fact. Even the most hardcore pool lovers can not be depended on for
financially support. They have proven it over and over for many years. In fact they would rather sneak in under the curtain before paying. It is just the way it is.

Even a tournament like the US Open gets no national press. No sports programs, who report on like everything on the planet sports related, carried the results of the US Open. No one cares and like I said before, "So What". It is a great game I enjoy playing everyday and have for close to 60 years.

Contrary for a popular belief, pool is doing pretty well. Millions of players play in all kinds of venues, leagues are probably bigger now then ever before. Unfortunately, it is not a sport one can make a living at as a player. This is not a negative by the way, the same can be said about almost every Olympic sport. Some things you do because you love it, the rewards come in a different way.

Intelligent observations, and articulate statements, you sure you really do play pool everyday?
The scenario's you've portrayed here seem like, a pretty accurate series of observations. Now my question is, can you build a following from there?
IMHO, the short answer is yes! The league players alone would provide enough of a market share to build a Pro Tour around (much in the manner of Mark Griffen's USAPL, for example) and some form of T.V. coverage "WILL" follow that (ACCU-STATS, will see to it)!
So, there is some form of hope for Televised Pro-Pool, however, it will take a new form of organisation and co-operation among the key industry movers and shakers.
This Sport can be promoted along the same lines as a Rock band that does 3000 to 5000 seat venues, it's really not that expensive to have an 8-stop Pro-Tour, at this moment! One Medium sized Corporate sponsor could do it (Pepsi or Coke, with a donation of 1 Super Bowl size add expenditure)!
Don't give in to, "it's always been this way and always will be," There are others out there silently at work to see some of these things materialize!
p.s. Oh, and by the way, as far as the public's interest goes, Gaylord enterprises started about "a million" shows on stock car racing to promote interest in that sport in the mid-to-late-eighties. How'd that work out?

 

[kvinbrwr]

ESPN does NOT pay for any production costs to film pool tournaments. The WPBA pays a production company to film their events. They have that edited and it gets turned over to ESPN. At this point ESPN owns the rights to the film and they decide whether to air it or not and when and how often.

It costs something between $50,000 and $60,000 to have a high quality production for the final 4 matches of a WPBA tournament.

So, theoretically anybody could get a pool tournament on ESPN. They would have to shoulder the production costs and then turn it over to ESPN.

Yeah and then does (did?) the WPBA then have the rights to some of the commercial revenue?

Thanks

Kevin

 

[macguy]

Intelligent observations, and articulate statements, you sure you really do play pool everyday?
The scenario's you've portrayed here seem like, a pretty accurate series of observations. Now my question is, can you build a following from there?
IMHO, the short answer is yes! The league players alone would provide enough of a market share to build a Pro Tour around (much in the manner of Mark Griffen's USAPL, for example) and some form of T.V. coverage "WILL" follow that (ACCU-STATS, will see to it)!
So, there is some form of hope for Televised Pro-Pool, however, it will take a new form of organisation and co-operation among the key industry movers and shakers.
This Sport can be promoted along the same lines as a Rock band that does 3000 to 5000 seat venues, it's really not that expensive to have an 8-stop Pro-Tour, at this moment! One Medium sized Corporate sponsor could do it (Pepsi or Coke, with a donation of 1 Super Bowl size add expenditure)!
Don't give in to, "it's always been this way and always will be," There are others out there silently at work to see some of these things materialize!
p.s. Oh, and by the way, as far as the public's interest goes, Gaylord enterprises started about "a million" shows on stock car racing to promote interest in that sport in the mid-to-late-eighties. How'd that work out?

I am not the nay-sayer I may come across as. The thing is, you have to know where you are and where you realistically want to go. You are right, there is a market although small hopefully would be loyal and supportive. I don't think it would be a bad idea to promote pool as an amateur sport featuring league players. You would instantly have a million players who can identify with them. One of the things that draws for poker is someone at home can watch and say, "I could play in that game", and they would be right under the right circumstances.

League players advance to national championships that I am sure would draw an audience. Sometimes you never know, who would have guessed that "Dancing with the Stars" would be such a success. You know Americas home videos was put together in like a week when there was a writers strike. Who knew at the time they were inventing a whole new kind of show. Somewhere out there, there must be a format and way of presenting pool to an audience that would be of some interest.

The game itself when played at the highest levels is not very interesting to the non player. While trick shot competitions can capture the interest of even a non player, maybe more so then a player, who may look at trick shots as stupid. The great thing about pool is it is not just one thing, there is dozens of way games can be played on a pool table.

 

[Zbotiman]

The game itself

I am not the nay-sayer I may come across as. The thing is, you have to know where you are and where you realistically want to go. You are right, there is a market although small hopefully would be loyal and supportive. I don't think it would be a bad idea to promote pool as an amateur sport featuring league players. You would instantly have a million players who can identify with them. One of the things that draws for poker is someone at home can watch and say, "I could play in that game", and they would be right under the right circumstances.

League players advance to national championships that I am sure would draw an audience. Sometimes you never know, who would have guessed that "Dancing with the Stars" would be such a success. You know Americas home videos was put together in like a week when there was a writers strike. Who knew at the time they were inventing a whole new kind of show. Somewhere out there, there must be a format and way of presenting pool to an audience that would be of some interest.

The game itself when played at the highest levels is not very interesting to the non player. While trick shot competitions can capture the interest of even a non player, maybe more so then a player, who may look at trick shots as stupid. The great thing about pool is it is not just one thing, there is dozens of way games can be played on a pool table.

The problem of spectator disinterest, exists within all Televised sports. It's my belief when non-participants in a sport, watch a sport performed at it's highest levels by Professionals, it's always a challenge for them.

Competitive sports however, offer the distinct advantage for non-players to root for a chosen individual or team, whether participants or not. Hence, they become involved in the outcome; therefore, "INTEREST!"

Our Sport of Pool, has in it's very nature, "the fight, or boxing aspect" of competition. This is one of the main reasons why so many people on AZ, enjoy watching Justin's TAR match-ups on PPV! The "average" League player however, shuns this competitive, intrinsic nature within the Sport of Pool! It's my belief, this gladiator like, fighting nature, is perhaps the most interesting aspects of Pool as a spectator sport. One could argue, this disinterest on the part of the neophytes is another key reason the Pro's are so unappreciated by the grass-roots level players in this sport!

So,----as everyone knows, it's impossible to advance ANYTHING, when the Lunatics are running the asylum!