Does Atlas buy and sell illegally obtained poached ivory ?
Atlas Billiard Supplies fined $162,000 for illegal ivory export
- Thread starter snookerman
- Start date
TheThaiger
Banned
Good point. Talking from the perspective of wanting to save the planet, er, man, there's far, far too many Americans. :wink:
On a more practical note, if China and India aspire to live the American lifestyle, we're all completely donald ducked. Examples need to be set NOW.
TheThaiger
Banned
Tedious straw man guff.
Look, you continue to use ivory if it makes you happy and rich, and I'll continue to live in the real world and sleep soundly at night.
I don't actually particularly object to using ivory in pool cues. I do very much object to people coming up with spurious reasons for justifying its use. It's the hypocrisy that gets me.
TheThaiger
Banned
Wow, that's poor.
I think you just like to argue.....lol. Really, this statement makes all your posts here the most hypocritical of all.
TheThaiger
Banned
Really? How so?
Lol.......
IF they aspire to?
I don't know about India but in China they aspire to much more than that. I don't know any American city of a similar size to the one I live in, about 3 million people, which can sustain more than ten huge shopping malls like we have here. Here we have huge malls facing each other and connected by another huge mall under the street.
Parked next to my car is a brand new Rolls Royce, next to that a Jag, 15ish Mercedes, 10 Beamers, several Range Rovers, a Bentley, and that's just the ones on my level. Oh and parked up front is an ivory colored Cadililac.
On the ivory question I personally feel that it's not really needed to make awesome cues. But it is an exotic material with each piece being completely unique. And like all exotic materials it will always be in demand. I am certain that the worldwide amount of ivory used in pool cues is teeny tiny compared to other uses. Over here they still carve whole tusks for display in private homes. They do a thing here called hollow balls where they carve balls within balls out of tusk sections. So at the end you have up to 17 balls inside an unbroken sphere.
As someone said, capitalism and communism were at war and capitalism won, enjoy the victory.
Regrading Joe Van's point about selling the tusks instead of burning them had they done that then the price of ivory would have dropped immensely and thus the incentive to poach would have dropped with it. Two things stop people from doing something, doesn't pay enough and it's dangerous. So by selling the tusks and giving the rangers better guns, night vision goggles and a shiny new surveilance drone they hazards of being a poacher would have gone up.
Regarding using animal parts to make things, well I am of course in the leather goods business and I have thought about it. Animals are part of nature and if there is a way to harvest their parts sustainably then that's fine with me. We use animals for all sorts of things from pigments in paint to scents in food.
Decorating our stuff using hard to get materials has been part of our nature since the dawn of man. When you were an indian you couldn't get a bear-tooth necklace at the corner tipi, you had to kill the bear and take the teeth and make your own. Having one meant you did something no one else could do. Well of course rich people at some point figured out that they could buy precious decorations without the danger. They could pay other people to kill bears, sharks, elephants, and mine diamonds, gold, etc.... to be used in their exotic stuff.
That's just how it is and how it's likely to be. The 1.4 billion in China are governed by the communist party now but their culture extends back thousands of years. You aren't going to legislate away the desire to own things made of exotic materials in a culture like this. The need to do what is expected that powerful people do is stronger than the awareness of conservation or of just how the materials were obtained.
The only way to change it is to make it somehow sexy to NOT use ivory. Looking around the city I live in I don't see that this will happen any time soon.
As for Atlas, well if you falsify documents then you have to pay the piper. Bummer because they are generally good folks. This is why I would not get involved in transporting or shipping ivory. I had a bunch at one time and ended up selling it all to domestic cue makers instead of trying to ship it. Things are only going to get tougher and tougher regarding the Lacey act. It's a terrible piece of legislation that grants far too much latitude. It's intention is good but the way it's written makes it very dangerous for companies dealing in products covered under it to be in proper compliance at all times. I would estimate that nearly every cue maker in the world is subject to being fined and prosecuted under it because probably none of them are in compliance. The government has the power under the Lacey act to act like the Gestapo and come in and shut down anyone and keep them shut down for as long as they want to unless they are forced by the court to abandon their investigation, which does not happen.
It's really best if cue makers wean themselves off ivory and any other materials that they wish to use and ship around the world.
Well it seems as if I had more to say about this than I thought.
TheThaiger
Banned
Uniquely, perhaps, but I'm glad you did. Good post.
WyattEarp
Tamer Of The Wild West
I have been lurking for years and never said anything but finally decided to come out and participate.
You make inane and irresponsible remarks/comments. Is there any topic or subject that you don't know something about? You seem to be the AZ know-it-all for everything billiards. You are clueless about most subjects including ivory and the USA. I think you just like to hear yourself talk and AZ makes you feel important.
You "would estimate that nearly every cue maker in the world is subject to being fined and prosecuted under it". How did you come to this estimation? Did you contract with the research department at Columbia University to conduct a study or survey? Are there records out there that only you know about?
Cuemakers have been selling cues for decades and this is the first we’ve heard of any raids or busts. There have been a few isolated confiscations mostly due to incoming cues for repairs which many were released when the proper paperwork was shown. Do you think cuemakers like Gutierrez and Drexler are going to stop building cues with ivory and that people are going to stop buying cues with legal ivory? Of course not.
The first we heard of any raids was with Barringer who received a slap on the wrist, Warther who turned informant and now Atlas who deserved to be hung for their actions. With the exception of Atlas and rightly so, both Warther and Barringer are both still successfully selling legal pre ban ivory. I buy mostly from Barringer and occasionally from Warther when Barringer feels the need to excel in the moron department. I own many ivory cues and never had a problem with any of them.
You then make an even more reckless statement, “The government has the power under the Lacey act to act like the Gestapo and come in and shut down anyone and keep them shut down for as long as they want to unless they are forced by the court to abandon their investigation, which does not happen”. Who are they going to shut down? Can you provide a single instance of anyone that was shut down under the Lacey Act who was running a legitimate business? Atlas, Warther and Barringer were all raided and all are still in business to this very day. Barringer even shoved it in the Feds faces when all this came down. Damn the torpedo’s, full speed ahead! Sometimes he has a great perspective and attitude..
There aren’t any cuemakers in my opinion that have any compliance issues. Both Warther and Barringer supply sufficient provenance. If they didn’t they would be in jail. Your comments were reckless and irresponsible. Stick to what you may know best and that’s making and selling imported cue cases. In the meantime, I’ll still buy and play with my ivory made USA cues.
Whoever you are......you should do your homework. The Lacey Act is overly broad and in fact the government CAN come in and shut down your business on the suspicion of violating it. There have been many cases of them disrupting businesses and confiscating materials.
Then the business owner has to jump through hoops to get their material back, the burden of proof shifted to the accused and not on the accuser.
Check Gibson Guitars for the latest high profile bust.
As importers of wooden products it is a lengthy bureaucratic process to be in compliance and even if one single piece in a container is not properly labeled or the customs agent feels that it MIGHT be an endangered species of wood then they can confiscate the entire container and tie it up for a long time.
Furthermore the Lacey Act makes it a crime to violate the laws regarding endangered species and wood processing IN OTHER COUNTRIES. Which means if you bought ebony from Gambia and IN GAMBIA it was illegally harvested then it's illegal to possess it in the USA as well even if ebony is not on the endangered list.
You can say what you want but the fact is that nearly every wood turner, cue maker, cabinet maker and small hobbyist buying exotic woods is PROBABLY in violation of the Lacey Act to some degree IF one goes by the strict reporting process covering the wood used.
http://www.laceyactresources.com/#Details
So perhaps you should do your homework before you speak up. Since I had to deal with a 25 page list materials covering our shipments and had to attempt to wade through the Lacey act's requirements and the CITEs list of plant-based materials to determine what the exact makeup of EVERY part of EVERY product we import is to insure that we are in compliance I know a little about this. It is practically impossible to know the origin of every wood type and every type of shellac and every fiber in every product yet that is exactly what is asked of the importer. So importers rely on their suppliers and if those suppliers are in error then the importer is still subject to penalties and confiscation if found to be importing plant and wildlife based materials from plants and animals on the endangered species list.
Go to the CITES website and print out their lists and go around your house and see if you can determine what all the stuff in your house is made of. I bet $10,000 you can't fill out a Lacey Act import declaration properly for all the material in your house. So, without any respect whatsoever, how shutting up when you don't have any clue what you are talking about?
The reality is that just about everyone who works with wood, whether imported or not, is violating or has violated the Lacey Act since 2008. So it's completely impractical for the government to start "raiding" every little shop in the USA to ensure compliance but that doesn't mean that they can't do so.
The absolute REALITY is that any customs agent at any border crossing can ask for the provenance of the woods and materials in your pool cue and IF you cannot produce documents to satisfy him or her then they have the right to confiscate your cues until you provide documentation.
It is highly unlikely that this will happen but it is not only possible it's entirely legal for them to do so. Hence the overly broad reach of the Lacey Act since 2008.
WyattEarp
Tamer Of The Wild West
More Barton BS
I tried to be polite but you sir are a flaming (fill in the blank). We’re not talking about border crossings or wood dealings. So take your analogies and put them where the sun never shines. We’re not talking about “ebony in Gambia” nor were we discussing the Gibson guitar raids which is a whole other story and once again you know nothing about except what you read online. I guess that makes you an “expert’ and self professed know-it-all.
If anyone should do their homework it’s you for making wild and erroneous statements like, You "would estimate that nearly every cue maker in the world is subject to being fined and prosecuted under it". Where did you get your estimations? And secondly, we’re not concerned with cue makers in the world. We’re discussing USA cue makers because that’s where the ivory cue market exists.
I know more about what I’m talking about because I know this subject and I’m not a know-it-all like you who knows everything about everything. My ivory is legal as is all the ivory used in cue production purchased from reputable sources. You wrongfully painted the whole industry with a broad brush. Stick to making your cue cases.
And the fact that you “know a little about this” is certainly an understatement. You know nothing because it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know what products are banned or on the endangered species list. Once again you’re trying to dazzle us with your brilliance and qualifications to which there are no qualifications. Brazilian Rosewood is on the endangered species list so I wouldn’t dare try to import any. Cocobolo is not on the list. Bocote is not on the list. Wow – this is rocket science. You try too hard to profess your brilliance but most of us know better.
And as they say, I’m done because you cannot argue with an idiot so profess yourself importance as I am done with you and this nonsense. Have a nice day.
Incredible over 12,177 posts since you joined in November 2007. That’s 51 months or 239 posts a month or approximately 8 posts per day. I don’t know about the rest of you but I surely don’t have the time to post 8 times a day let alone read what I have to comment on and post as well. I guess some have more free time than others. Must be nice to know so much as you do.
I tried to be polite but you sir are a flaming (fill in the blank). We’re not talking about border crossings or wood dealings. So take your analogies and put them where the sun never shines. We’re not talking about “ebony in Gambia” nor were we discussing the Gibson guitar raids which is a whole other story and once again you know nothing about except what you read online. I guess that makes you an “expert’ and self professed know-it-all.
If anyone should do their homework it’s you for making wild and erroneous statements like, You "would estimate that nearly every cue maker in the world is subject to being fined and prosecuted under it". Where did you get your estimations? And secondly, we’re not concerned with cue makers in the world. We’re discussing USA cue makers because that’s where the ivory cue market exists.
I know more about what I’m talking about because I know this subject and I’m not a know-it-all like you who knows everything about everything. My ivory is legal as is all the ivory used in cue production purchased from reputable sources. You wrongfully painted the whole industry with a broad brush. Stick to making your cue cases.
And the fact that you “know a little about this” is certainly an understatement. You know nothing because it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know what products are banned or on the endangered species list. Once again you’re trying to dazzle us with your brilliance and qualifications to which there are no qualifications. Brazilian Rosewood is on the endangered species list so I wouldn’t dare try to import any. Cocobolo is not on the list. Bocote is not on the list. Wow – this is rocket science. You try too hard to profess your brilliance but most of us know better.
And as they say, I’m done because you cannot argue with an idiot so profess yourself importance as I am done with you and this nonsense. Have a nice day.
Incredible over 12,177 posts since you joined in November 2007. That’s 51 months or 239 posts a month or approximately 8 posts per day. I don’t know about the rest of you but I surely don’t have the time to post 8 times a day let alone read what I have to comment on and post as well. I guess some have more free time than others. Must be nice to know so much as you do.