monthly fees

[RackemBilliards]

Fees

Hummm everybody thinks in different ways

RackemBilliards I agree (BUT) Lets look at it a little more closely.

Does it use any more power to turn the lights on?
Does it cost anymore to heat/AC?
Won't you get more in food sales with 4 people rather than 1?
Will it cost any more for maintenance if 4 people play on it rather than 1?
Just because other sports (bowling) (Golf) does it, Does it mean you have to?

Just some food for thought. I'm not saying i'm right But I would like some other opinions too.

I agree that those points are all true, and they are all true in the examples I gave as well. No more heat/AC is used in the bowling alley or the club if it's full. It doesn't cost more to show a movie if the house is full vs half empty. Most people realize that a movie theatre makes it's profit from concession sales. Wouldn't it make sense then, for entrance to be free and fill the place for every show? Obviously, it's not. For each example there is a mix that works and allows the business model to succeed. I was simply making the point (rather sarcastically as I look back now) that it seemed reasonable to expect that it might cost more for 4 people to go out and play pool for the evening than just 1.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

I agree that those points are all true, and they are all true in the examples I gave as well. No more heat/AC is used in the bowling alley or the club if it's full. It doesn't cost more to show a movie if the house is full vs half empty. Most people realize that a movie theatre makes it's profit from concession sales. Wouldn't it make sense then, for entrance to be free and fill the place for every show? Obiously, it's not. For each example there is a mix that works and allows the business model to succeed. I was simply making the point (rather sarcastically as I look back now) that it seemed reasonable to expect that it might cost more for 4 people to go out and play pool for the evening than just 1.

From a customer's perspective the difference between pool and the movies/golf/bowling is not so much that the expenses are significantly higher when more people are added to the party. The difference is unlike pool, in the other three activities the house can sell (and profit from) that seat/tee time/game to someone else so there is an opportunity cost (lost revenue) for not charging for each person. But in pool the room owner can't do that so there is no opportunity cost that the owner should be compensated for. That's the argument against charging more in a pool room for table time. If I'm renting a table for X dollars an hour I "own" that table. The room owner does not have the opportunity to sell that same table to other people at the same time I'm on it and therefore has not lost revenue just because I have one or two others in my party.

Additionally, using the bowling example, alleys usually charge by the game (per person) or by the hour. In my area where they charge by the hour, they do not charge more for additional people. This makes sense because they cannot rent that lane to anyone else while my party is on it, so there is no opportunity cost to the owner.

The problem seems to be that whether the room owner is justified in charging more for multiple players or not, there is a disconnect with the way the customer perceives it and this may result in some customers choosing not to come in and play.

Perhaps the best way to sell customers on the concept of paying more for multiple players is to charge a normal rate of X dollars per hour that applies to 2 or more players, and offer a discount for solo play. Hardtimes in L.A. offers a discount for single player practice time. Essentially, the rationale is that this gives a break to the solo player who is not splitting the cost with other players but is footing the entire bill by himself. It gives the serious regular a discount on practice time. The sales pitch is "We charge X per hour and this covers 2 or more players. We do offer a discount for solo play because we have customers who come in to practice by themselves and we realize it can get expensive for one person so we offer a discount on solo practice time." I would think most customers could accept this kind of pricing structure.

 

[Red Shoes]

We (Red Shoes Billiards) have a practice "daytime" rate. It is (pre-pay) $10 per player from "open til 6:00 pm". Single player rate after 6:00 pm is $6.00 hr. Normal 2 player rate is $9.00 hr. (anytime), 3 players $10.00 hr. and 4 (or more) players $12.00 hr. House cues are available (along the walls) at no charge. Also, coffee is free (no charge). Oh I forgot....single player rate before 6:00 pm (if you can't take advantage of the "daytime special") is $4.50 hr.

 

[GARY LLOYD]

The business side of it...

The way I look at the situation is... If a room has "x" amount of tables available to rent... Then each table must generate "x" amount of income to do it's part in sustaining the rooms overhead. Operating expenses per day / # of tables / hours of operation = Cash flow that the table must generate to stay in the black. The tables are seldom ever all busy, all at once, the entire day. So on a 16 hour day the tables may only see 8 hours of play... So that doubles the hourly rate the table needs to generate.

Let's use a 10 table room for easy math. 10 tables at $5.00 per hour = $50.00 per hour x 16 hours per day = $800.00 per day in table time. BUT... The tables are idle 50% of the time = 0 income on the idle tables. So now if the tables only generate cash flow 50% of the time the rate has to double to meet the daily total. 10 tables at $10.00 per hour = $100.00 per hour x 8 hours per day = $800.00 per day in table time.

So the room must charge $10.00 per hour, per table, to make the nut. This is a double edged sword if you ask me. Fine... set rate per table... 4 players $2.50 a piece per hour, 3 players $3.33 a piece per hour, 2 players $5.00 a piece per hour and 1 player $10.00 an hour. How many of us are going to go practice for 5 hours at $50.00 a day in table time?

I for one am very happy most room owners discount the total earning potential of a table for the single and two player rates. I have never looked at it as the table is only worth "x" amount per hour and the owner is trying to over charge to play with others. I have always seen it as "Thank God this owner cuts me / us a break and discounts the table rate for us." But any room I frequent also knows that if it is full house and a larger group comes in... I am more than willing to take break so the house can rent the table at full potential and make their cash.

I heard a story from someone one time about going out of town for tournament. They hit the room Friday night before the event. The room was packed. They got put on a waiting list for an hour and a half. Finally got a table about 10pm. Played til midnight. The room is still full w/ a waiting list. They went to check out and the ball girl says "That'll be $40.00 sir." Surprised? Must be some mistake. It was just me and I only played for two hours. The ball girl says "Yes sir... The max rate is 4 players @ $5.00 per player per hour = $20.00 an hour x 2 hours = $40.00. We do not offer any discounts during our prime hours." The player paid the money and asked to speak with manager. Well the owner happened to be there and came over to handle the situation. The player more or less asked "How can you justify charging me $20.00 an hour to play pool?" The owner very politely and calmly says "As you were told... We do not offer discounts during prime hours of play. The table can generate $20.00 an hour with 4 people on it. So that is the table rate." The player very disgusted by the answer says "That's crazy!" The owner smiles and says " You think that's crazy? You should try being the one to write the $48,000.00 rent check every month. That's crazy! I am sorry for the shell shock but I hope you had a good time."

 

[Red Shoes]

Gary...your concept is right on the money, although the "in use %" of the time is high. I can't think of a room that I have ever seen that had all their tables going 50% of the time (why if that happened at my place...I would take that 10 year old car of mine and buy me a 5 year old car...LOL). Anyhow, you have to look at how much the table will generate. Although I would never "bump" a player (players) off a table for a larger group. When I first opened, I had a 6'x 12' snooker (Matchroom Imperial) and a three cushion carom table. Over the first few years in business they (snooker and carom) did not justify the square footage they were taking up in the pool room. I put them in storage and replaced them with 2 more Gold Crowns. I have seen rooms (NOT MINE), charge higher prices ("no exceptions") after a certain time of day. I have also seen rooms in other parts of the country (not Chicago), that would let a "player" play for "FREE", until it was "action time". Then after there was a winner....time was predicated on how much you won (they would take a %). "IF" you did not pay it....outside they took it ALL (including your cues and girlfriend), so you were better off just paying it. The pool room business is much tougher than most people can imagine. It is not easy keeping one of these "mausoleums" open in this or any economy.

 

[Doodlesbilliard]

If we're each paying for the time, can we play on 3 seperate tables? We're paying the equivalent. Does that make any sense?

If 3 people are playing on a table and we aren't playing cutthroat, aren't 2 people really playing? At no time are 3 people playing the game.

If there's a guy standing around, but not playing, does he need to pay? He does in golf.

If I don't have a full group of 4 will you match me up?

In a movie theater there are certain number of SEATS that they are renting. Each SEAT has a specific price and I pay to use it for the duration of the movie. Multiple people per seat is not permitted.

Pool rooms have pool tables that they are renting. I am paying for the use of the pool table, not for admittance. Some places do charge cover charges on busy nights, and I obviously have no contention with that.

On a golf course there are x groups going out per day. Each group should be 4 people. They add singles and doubles and group them together to make foursomes.

Clearly not appropriate analogy's, but I see what you're saying. But the reality is that 2 people play pool at at time (majority of the time) and the other sits and drinks and eats and plays the part of the patron until it is their turn.

Quick question. Do you feel the same about a group of six? And let's say you playing the biggest set of your life on table next to them? You want some of that knocking the cue ball off the table and shooting the mase shot 150 times back to back? Lol. I think its more about controlling how many folks are on a table. This is important because as a poolroom owner it is my duty to control the environment and your experience as a customer. By charging players it reduces the amount of bystanders and controls the customer experience. Simply put as a customer you are renting a table. But more so you are BUYing the experience and atmosphere. Not to be a dick, because I totally see your logic, but do you see mine?

 

[808billiards]

Cheaper rates may work in "low cost" per square foot locations (Bugtussle USA). Most pool rooms have "historically" charged rates predicated on the number of players per table. As I have stated in other "posts" about rates...Unlike other businesses that "pass along" operating cost increases as they come up. Pool rooms can only raise rates every 4-5 years (on table time). Think about it...YOUR local pool room did NOT have different table time rates in 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008...2012 etc... As a "pool player" I wish I could go in to a place and pay $10 and play all month long (on perfect equipment of course). As a pool room owner...I know that is impossible. I would love to charge the same rates I did when I opened (1995)...."IF" my costs were the same as they were in 1995. Nobody complains about the "Chevy" you paid $20,000 for in the year 2001, now costs you $30,000 in 2012 or the box of corn flakes that was $1.99 in 2001 is $3.29 now. The same is true at your local pool room. As far as "giving" table time away with food or drink...the pool room is generally on it's knees (struggling) or is a "theme bar" with pool tables (i.e. not a true pool room). If your employer wanted to pay YOU the same amount of money he did in 2002....you would likely quit. Costs go up over the years (rent-mortgage, electric, gas, insurance, licensing fees, wages, maintenance supplies, table cloth, taxes, taxes and MORE TAXES). Couple this with the "smoking ban" (that hurt most pool rooms and bars) and casinos (which are just about everywhere now), it is a "tough business" to be in (pool rooms). Most room owners are just trying to pay the bills.

I have been struggling with this exact issue. A little background on my operation. I am the owner/operator of the only pool hall on the island. The last pool hall on the island was in the mid to late 90's. I have players that mentioned that they used to pay the same rates that I am charging now back in the 90's which is $4-$5 per hour. I am a pool player too and we always wish that there was a pool hall on the island where we could play at and now that we have one then we find every little thing to complain about. If you based it on pure inflation alone then $5 in 1995 will be $7.79 in 2015. Pool is the only business where we expect to keep paying the same rates as we did 20 years ago and the main reason why pool halls are closing around the country.

 

[skins]

We (Red Shoes Billiards) have a practice "daytime" rate. It is (pre-pay) $10 per player from "open til 6:00 pm". Single player rate after 6:00 pm is $6.00 hr. Normal 2 player rate is $9.00 hr. (anytime), 3 players $10.00 hr. and 4 (or more) players $12.00 hr. House cues are available (along the walls) at no charge. Also, coffee is free (no charge). Oh I forgot....single player rate before 6:00 pm (if you can't take advantage of the "daytime special") is $4.50 hr.

Great rates, tables, atmosphere, concessions, hospitality, everything but this John guy. LOL..Nah just funnin'. You want find a nicer more knowledgeable room owner than John...The whole place is nice.. Would love to visit 808 in Hilo Hawaii some time too.. Great Owner runs a beautiful looking place....

Tim(Skins)

 

[Poolshootindon]

I have been struggling with this exact issue. A little background on my operation. I am the owner/operator of the only pool hall on the island. The last pool hall on the island was in the mid to late 90's. I have players that mentioned that they used to pay the same rates that I am charging now back in the 90's which is $4-$5 per hour. I am a pool player too and we always wish that there was a pool hall on the island where we could play at and now that we have one then we find every little thing to complain about. If you based it on pure inflation alone then $5 in 1995 will be $7.79 in 2015. Pool is the only business where we expect to keep paying the same rates as we did 20 years ago and the main reason why pool halls are closing around the country.

Stand alone pool halls really have a hard time making it these days. Here in Oregon a few of the pool halls would probably be losing money if they tried to survive on table rates and cue sales.

But we have video lottery and a lot of the people who come in to the pool halls only play the video lottery. So the owner of the pool hall can survive.

Where i play pool its $90 for 3 months of pool. 13 Gold crowns and 1 snooker table. It has video lottery and great food. Always full of customers.

Best of both worlds here in Portland,Or.

 

[OTB]

I have a VIP card that costs $100 for the year....your table time is $2 a hour for a year..

 

[jasonlaus]

If we're each paying for the time, can we play on 3 seperate tables? We're paying the equivalent. Does that make any sense?

If 3 people are playing on a table and we aren't playing cutthroat, aren't 2 people really playing? At no time are 3 people playing the game.

If there's a guy standing around, but not playing, does he need to pay? He does in golf.

If I don't have a full group of 4 will you match me up?

In a movie theater there are certain number of SEATS that they are renting. Each SEAT has a specific price and I pay to use it for the duration of the movie. Multiple people per seat is not permitted.

Pool rooms have pool tables that they are renting. I am paying for the use of the pool table, not for admittance. Some places do charge cover charges on busy nights, and I obviously have no contention with that.

On a golf course there are x groups going out per day. Each group should be 4 people. They add singles and doubles and group them together to make foursomes.

Clearly not appropriate analogy's, but I see what you're saying. But the reality is that 2 people play pool at at time (majority of the time) and the other sits and drinks and eats and plays the part of the patron until it is their turn.

Actually, only 1 person is playing at a time. You dont use 2 cueballs do you?

 

[cueandcushion]

A lot of interesting opinions. I don't understand how having a room full doesnt increase expenses. It always does for me. .More lights are on. The door is constantly open from smokers running inside and out, air conditioning runs more. More people to clean up after and maintenance on equipment. The A/C costs more from all the people giving off heat/ the lights giving off heat. We do have a 90 year old building though. Probably part of the utilities fluctuation. How much profit does the average pool player want the room owner to make off of him? Statistically, the public is happiest when you are losing money on them on pool. Everyone wants it to be a loss leader.

 

[pescadoman]

A lot of interesting opinions. I don't understand how having a room full doesnt increase expenses. It always does for me. .More lights are on. The door is constantly open from smokers running inside and out, air conditioning runs more. More people to clean up after and maintenance on equipment. The A/C costs more from all the people giving off heat/ the lights giving off heat. We do have a 90 year old building though. Probably part of the utilities fluctuation. How much profit does the average pool player want the room owner to make off of him? Statistically, the public is happiest when you are losing money on them on pool. Everyone wants it to be a loss leader.

I want the guy to make a living for himself and his family. That is what it's all about right?

It's all about perception though...... How do people THINK you are doing..?

 

[cueandcushion]

Perception of owners vs customers is very different.

I want the guy to make a living for himself and his family. That is what it's all about right?

It's all about perception though...... How do people THINK you are doing..?

Truth is we have not even come close to breaking even on pool time in most of the 50 years we have been in business. Keep in mind we have ZERO rent with that claim. Pool players many times pick a place based on rates only. Not all players, but most. If the best room in a city charged $40/hour for perfect tables, it would probably be pretty empty; because the bar down the street with un-level Valley tables with bad rubber is free during the daytime. We raised our pool rates to $3.60/hour in 1993. Today our pool rate is $3.60/ hour. Our accountant says we need to charge $8.60/hour to BREAK EVEN. How do think most players would react to us breaking even? How would most players react if their local place had to more that double prices to "break even"? This is another reason rooms have closed all over the country. We fortunately survive on retail sales. Most rooms survive on alcohol sales or gambling machines. The sport of pool is surviving by accepting profits from other arenas for most rooms around the country. This fact is not lost on promoters / sponsors. Its hard to convince big companies to cater to a sport that relies on this type of welfare to survive.

How do our players THINK we are doing? I am reminded daily how I am getting rich off pool time. So it is all about perception.