banking

Imo

I'm with John I believe it is in the speed and hit and stroke. If you hit to hard the ball jumps off the rail not knowing where its going. Too soft the ball opens up and you are guessing then. That is why nobody makes all banks. The hit, if you veer to far from center then your accuracy and spin of the object ball changes the angle the ball comes off of the rail. Which is another reason nobody makes all the banks. Stroke, if you put a bad stroke on a ball no matter what you do its not going. If you put a good stroke with center ball hit and are even close to the right angle the pocket will gobble up that ball. There is a lot more to it than that. But I dont have a week to explain my theory. Between watching John and a friend of mine and the things he has showed me I have deduced a lot of new things. I wish I had done better at dcc than I did. I know the reason I didnt is because I didnt control my ball better(kept scratching and double hitting then scratching) and speed when playing safe. You could tell the people who dont aim and guess when banking and they made everything is because they are playing constantly and always use a good stroke. I played 2 young guns beat one and lost to the other. They didnt hardly miss their ball speed was perfect. obviously they play everyday and stay in action. Troy Jones
 
Robert Raiford said:
You're description doesn't agree with the physics. Spin transfer between balls happens immediately at the moment of contact just like throw (they're two aspects of the same frictional effect). There's no special distance the balls have to travel before the transfer completes, as you suggest.

Shot speed does reduce throw - and therefore spin transfer - in some cases, but all the magic happens at the moment of contact between the balls. If anything, shooting harder is necessary sometimes to keep transferred sidespin on the OB when it's far from a rail (length of the table straight-backs, for example).

In other words, there's a tradeoff between spin and speed related to distance of the OB from the rail. Shooting slower results in more spin transfer, but the OB loses it over a shorter distance. Shooting harder transfers less spin, but it stays on the OB for a longer distance. So some shots result in more OB sidespin at the cushion when shot softly, and others when shot faster. Additional complications to the art of banking involve the fact that stun transfers more spin than roll, too much CB english actually transfers less spin to the OB, etc., but that's a whole other discussion.

Anyway, the OB does take longer to develop forward roll when it's struck harder, which may be what you're thinking of when you mentioned "ball skid". However, that's not the result of spin transfer between balls, it's the result of friction between the ball and the cloth.

It's also possible you're trying to describe how the OB's spin/speed ratio is increased slightly at the cushion by the OB slowing down to achieve that forward roll. Still, the absolute amount of transferred spin happens at contact, so "english that won't have time to transfer" still doesn't make sense.

I think you are trying to address some practical effects in your software that you've noticed at the table, but your physics explanations could use some work. I recommend checking out relevant articles by Bob Jewett or Dr. Dave to explore the details more. Good luck with your app.

Robert
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Thanks Robert,
A good critique for sure and all good points. I continue to study the physics in efforts to make improvements where I can. I agree the transfer of english starts immediately but I would argue the full momentum the shot angle and applied english will create is not immediate. During the fraction of a second it takes for that momentum to build the ball is traveling across the playing surface, (skidding). The distance it travels during that time is relative to stroke speed.
 
Clyde Ellis said:
I continue to study the physics in efforts to make improvements where I can.
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FYI, a good summary of important kick and bank effects can be found here (in the bullet list):

If your app could model and take all of this stuff into consideration, and allow for different table conditions (cloth and rail properties), I would be very impressed. Much of this stuff is difficult to model properly without empirical approximations.

Good luck with your continued product development and sales.

Regards,
Dave
 
Cornerman said:
Versus? Isn't the bank shot calculator $5? I'd say get both.

I just got the Brumback DVD and it just upped my banking knowledge by a lot. But, IMO, it's not for beginners. You already have to be able to play and read in between the lines.

Big thumbs up for JBKY!!!!

Freddie <~~~ on the other hand, I haven't bought the BSC
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I agree with Freddie. I saw some demo of the BSC at the Derby. Very interesting! Looks like a helpful product. If I had an I-pod/I-pad I would own it! Or at least I think that's how it was explained to me. John's DVD is very good. Thanks to John Brumback, and Mark Otto for a great product!
 
J-Flo said:
Knowledge

Nice mention of Jack Koehler, Those yellow books have tons of knowledge in them and they seem to have been forgotten about , people chose dvds in stead of reading, so its nice to see them bought out in front for a moment anyway. I learn more every time I read them.
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FWIW, I've been practicing what I preached since I posted.

Lately, I've been putting one OB on the table with the CB and practicing going 2 rails with the CB to hit the OB.

When the OB is hit, I let it roll to where ever and try going 2 rails again to hit it. Every time I hit the OB after going 2 rails, I count that as 1 point. So far, my most is 5 points.

My single rail kicks have also improved based on some new info I got from those banking concepts.

I've used the hinge concept for send the OB three rails to a pocket. I was surprised how close I got on some shots.

My most recent improvement to my winning percentages is a direct result of practicing multi-rail banks using these concepts. Before, I was losing games to the simple fact I was not any good at 1 and 2 rails kicks.

Now, I'm making 2 rails kicks and getting shape on the next shot. My single rail kicks success has even increase more.

Just thought I'd give a update.

Oh, I got my own notes and diagrams on the pages I printed out so that I can just be sitting on the couch and quickly pick them up to review.
Sometimes the old ways are still the best.

Margin notes anyone........do that on a DVD.
 
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