8 ball safety

[satman]

A discussion came up about this, at the BCA State tourney in French Lick Indiana. Playing 8 ball

Player A has stripes, he has no shot at his last ball, and calls a safe. His ball is declared frozen to the rail. He shoots the cue ball into his ball lightly, and the cue ball touches the rail, hiding his opponent from all possible balls. Is it a foul?

In VNEA, this is a good hit, because a ball touched a rail, after contact with a legal ball. Some say BCA league rules are different. Don't post a link for me to read, as I have read it. And I see where they may interpret this in 2 different ways.

 

[GADawg]

A discussion came up about this, at the BCA State tourney in French Lick Indiana. Playing 8 ball

Player A has stripes, he has no shot at his last ball, and calls a safe. His ball is declared frozen to the rail. He shoots the cue ball into his ball lightly, and the cue ball touches the rail, hiding his opponent from all possible balls. Is it a foul?

In VNEA, this is a good hit, because a ball touched a rail, after contact with a legal ball. Some say BCA league rules are different. Don't post a link for me to read, as I have read it. And I see where they may interpret this in 2 different ways.

If the cue ball hits the rail after the contact with the OB, is a legal shot. If the cue ball hits the rail before hitting the OB, is a foul.

 

[Too Bad at Pool]

A discussion came up about this, at the BCA State tourney in French Lick Indiana. Playing 8 ball

Player A has stripes, he has no shot at his last ball, and calls a safe. His ball is declared frozen to the rail. He shoots the cue ball into his ball lightly, and the cue ball touches the rail, hiding his opponent from all possible balls. Is it a foul?

In VNEA, this is a good hit, because a ball touched a rail, after contact with a legal ball. Some say BCA league rules are different. Don't post a link for me to read, as I have read it. And I see where they may interpret this in 2 different ways.

Because the ball was declared frozen, it was a bad hit. The CB and/or the frozen OB have to hit a different rail or the OB has to go in.

If the CB or the frozen OB hit another ball on the table and that ball then hits a rail, the hit is good.

 

[flash5153]

Not sure why you think the rules are different from VNEA to BCA on this. I believe they are the same. And it is a good hit. I believe even if the ball was called frozen,,it is a good hit in either league. As long as after contact something hits a rail.

 

[stumpie71]

If the cue ball hits the rail after the contact with the OB, is a legal shot. If the cue ball hits the rail before hitting the OB, is a foul.

This is correct. It is quite clear in the rules that if the object ball is frozen to a rail and the CB makes LEGAL contact with the OB before contacting the rail and then contacts the rail it is a legal shot. This applies to VNEA BCA APA and WPA.

 

[MOJOE]

Because the ball was declared frozen, it was a bad hit. The CB and/or the frozen OB have to hit a different rail or the OB has to go in.

If the CB or the frozen OB hit another ball on the table and that ball then hits a rail, the hit is good.

This is absolutely incorrect.. I know this for a fact, I used to think this way but have since learned that I used to be incorrect, as is TBaP..

As long as the CB contacts the rail, yes the same rail AFTER it contacts the OB it is indeed a good hit!

 

[satman]

I agree, it's a good hit.

Not sure why you think the rules are different from VNEA to BCA on this. I believe they are the same. And it is a good hit. I believe even if the ball was called frozen,,it is a good hit in either league. As long as after contact something hits a rail.

But, there was a Nationally certified ref, playing in the tourney, that I have been friends with a long time, and he says they differ. VNEA is a good hit, and BCA is a foul. It didn't happen to me, but I still told him I didn't agree. The way the rule is written, is another of those gray area's, and I believe was misunderstood. I will be surprised when the BCA rules people get back to me, if they say it's a foul.

 

[Too Bad at Pool]

This is absolutely incorrect.. I know this for a fact, I used to think this way but have since learned that I used to be incorrect, as is TBaP..

As long as the CB contacts the rail, yes the same rail AFTER it contacts the OB it is indeed a good hit!

Wow, that is really good to know. I just double checked, and you guys are right.

That makes frozen ball situations much easier now. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[flash5153]

But, there was a Nationally certified ref, playing in the tourney, that I have been friends with a long time, and he says they differ. VNEA is a good hit, and BCA is a foul. It didn't happen to me, but I still told him I didn't agree. The way the rule is written, is another of those gray area's, and I believe was misunderstood. I will be surprised when the BCA rules people get back to me, if they say it's a foul.

I don't think so,,,but I'm no expert . I know they will change a rule every now and then. So it could have been long ago,,,but I really do believe they are now.

 

[satman]

The rule has been clarified

I don't think so,,,but I'm no expert . I know they will change a rule every now and then. So it could have been long ago,,,but I really do believe they are now.

http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook.aspx

Page 83, just below figure 10-7.... that 10 -7 used to be a foul, as both pieces of the long rail was considered a single rail,,,,, anyway, read this rule, so if you play any BCA events, the ref don't get you on this. There were 2 ref's working the tourney, who also said it's a bad hit. May be time to recertify....

 

[MOJOE]

Sam, that's a little scary that they both got it wrong! That's a very common play, you'd hope that "certified" referee's would have a clue.

 

[stumpie71]

Page 26, 1.19 (a & b) of the rule book applies to the shot in question not the example on page 83.

 

[satman]

Yea,

Sam, that's a little scary that they both got it wrong! That's a very common play, you'd hope that "certified" referee's would have a clue.

I agree. I usually go thru the rules for BCA and VNEA and look for changes every year, and to clarify which ones apply differently between the 2. When something like this comes up at a tourney, I will try and look it up and make my team aware, and anyone else we play pool with. We have 2 BCA charters, and 3 VNEA charters locally, and APA. They all play by different rules, than the State or National rules. Get's confusing.

 

[Hits 'em Hard]

Because the ball was declared frozen, it was a bad hit. The CB and/or the frozen OB have to hit a different rail or the OB has to go in.

If the CB or the frozen OB hit another ball on the table and that ball then hits a rail, the hit is good.

Oh man... If the cue ball were to never contact a rail, then yes I would be. Basically the rule should read 'rail after contact: if a ball is considered frozen, that ball must hit another rail, or the cue ball can hit any rail. After legal contact.'

 

[satman]

Page 83

Page 33, 1.19 (a & b) of the rule book applies to the shot in question not the example on page 83.

On page 83, that is a clarification of the frozen ball rule. Page 33 is the actual rule, and is causing the confusion. People are reading into the meaning of the rail being dead, that "all balls" are dead to that rail. The rail is only dead to the object ball that is frozen, and only until it makes contact with another ball which is NOT frozen to that rail. So, if it hits another ball next to it, and then contacts the same rail, it is still a good hit. After contact with the frozen ball, "any ball" may contact that same rail, and it's a legal hit

 

[LoVe4DaGaMe]

Sam, that's a little scary that they both got it wrong! That's a very common play, you'd hope that "certified" referee's would have a clue.

Or atleast a little bit more of a clue than this 25 year old guy.. who has only been playing in leagues and playing pool for 3 years.. lol (talking about me, btw.)

 

[Hits 'em Hard]

On page 83, that is a clarification of the frozen ball rule. Page 33 is the actual rule, and is causing the confusion. People are reading into the meaning of the rail being dead, that "all balls" are dead to that rail. The rail is only dead to the object ball that is frozen, and only until it makes contact with another ball which is NOT frozen to that rail. So, if it hits another ball next to it, and then contacts the same rail, it is still a good hit. After contact with the frozen ball, "any ball" may contact that same rail, and it's a legal hit

No, the ball that was frozen still cannot hit the same rail for legal contact. So erase that 'any ball' part.

 

[satman]

Yes, it can

No, the ball that was frozen still cannot hit the same rail for legal contact. So erase that 'any ball' part.

When the frozen ball leaves the rail, and makes contact with another "object ball", ANY ball can contact that rail, including the ball that was frozen.

 

[stumpie71]

On page 83, that is a clarification of the frozen ball rule. Page 33 is the actual rule, and is causing the confusion. People are reading into the meaning of the rail being dead, that "all balls" are dead to that rail. The rail is only dead to the object ball that is frozen, and only until it makes contact with another ball which is NOT frozen to that rail. So, if it hits another ball next to it, and then contacts the same rail, it is still a good hit. After contact with the frozen ball, "any ball" may contact that same rail, and it's a legal hit

That's the problem is that people are reading into it. The actual rule is quite specific and the clarification (10-7) applies to a specific shot that comes up frequently. The situation you described had the cb making contact with the rail after contact with the ob. If that is the case then 10-7 does not apply. Since the actual rule states that a legal shot is which the cb contacts a legal ob and after contact any ob must be pocketed, or ob or cb must contact a rail afterwards.

Once the requirements of 1.19 (1) a or b are met the rest doesn't matter.

 

[Hits 'em Hard]

When the frozen ball leaves the rail, and makes contact with another "object ball", ANY ball can contact that rail, including the ball that was frozen.

Just re-read my rule books, that's not in any of them. But in my ACS rule book it says the same object ball can hit the same rail for a legal hit. Which for the last couple years, if that rule is right, our league director has ****ed up.