Need help improving fundamentals

leminham...We DON'T have to follow through (anymore than just to strike the CB). We DO need to finish our stroke, regardless of how we do it. Your friend who pokes the ball "well" is doing it his way...but not a way I'd recommend or want to teach. It is impossible for having your hand finish in or near your armpit to 'obstruct' your cue. The shot is over once the tip touches the CB. We finish the stroke so that your grip hand has a place to go, and so that you can get away from squeezing the cue too tightly, and/or involving the shoulder in the stroke.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I totally understand what you were saying. But I feel very "uncomfortable" when my gip hands hit my chest. As I said before, I don't know why but my performance was sharply reduced when I have that feeling because, mentally, I think the chest obstructs my cue to follow through and alters the desired result.
To support my standpoint, I would like to ask you two questions:
Why do we need to follow though as the cue ball is long gone after contact with the tip? and seriously, I've seen a guy with quite impressive speed who usually pokes the ball rather than stroke through it.
Why do we feel this cue or that cue has a great feel to it? Partially, we feel the hit of a cue somehow by the way vibration travels back and forth along the cue when the CB is long gone. So, does it really matter how our grip hands feel the vibration after contact?
 
Why do we need to follow though as the cue ball is long gone after contact with the tip? and seriously, I've seen a guy with quite impressive speed who usually pokes the ball rather than stroke through it.

In order to poke the ball, we must be slowing our stroke early. It takes time and distance in order to allow the cue to come to a stop after contact. If your muscles are already slowing or preparing to slow the movement of the cue at contact, that is going to disrupt your stroke far more than allowing it to hit your chest well after cue ball separation.

Why do we feel this cue or that cue has a great feel to it? Partially, we feel the hit of a cue somehow by the way vibration travels back and forth along the cue when the CB is long gone. So, does it really matter how our grip hands feel the vibration after contact?

Feel of the hit of a cue is very subjective. We each have a different idea of what a good hit feels like. But that has nothing to do with why we recommend a more relaxed grip. A tight grip can cause unanticipated cue movement. A relaxed grip results in a more fluid stroke. If you tighten your grip, you also tense up the muscles in your forearm. (make a tight fist and you can quickly feel the tightness in your arm) And as a general rule, the more relaxed our muscles during the stroke, the smoother and straighter we are able to move the cue.

Steve
 
Leminhan.

I am in such fine company here. I am not an Instructor.

Your stance seems to be fine. What you may want to work on is walking into the shot line with your chin, take a couple of steps back and walk into the shot. Your chin will guide you into the proper stance for the shot.

I did notice that a shot you missed involved using the bridge. When using the bridge it should be placed at approximately a 45 deg angle like this ^
just like you were getting into a shooting stance with no bridge. You had it almost in line with the cue.

The reason for the loose grip is that your grip fingers control your bicep muscle. How gently or how firmly it is to be contracted. Once you start doing this notice the distance between the OB and the cue ball. You will want your grip hand to gently squeeze at the very instant the cue ball makes contact with the OB. This will help you to develop feel.

I was in Viet Nam during 1965, 66 and 67. Good to hear from you. Have fun.

Peace
John
 
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Besides the excellent advice others have give you here I noticed a couple things that could benefit your play. After viewing your video several times I noticed that you have a tendency to move your head on the contact stroke just before tip contact is made with the cue ball. This kind of movement could easily cause you to miss a shot that has a smaller margin of error.

The second problem I saw is that you tend to hit the cue ball rather than stroke through it as others have alluded to in this thread. A good stroke is more like a shove than a hit much like the shove some one who plays shuffleboard uses. Don't try to hit the surface of the cue ball on the contact stroke. Just feel your stroke speed and make sure the tip goes straight through the contact point on the cue ball while maintaining the cue speed until it stops naturally. Whatever you do, don't try to guide the cue ball to the target with the cue.
 
Besides the excellent advice others have give you here I noticed a couple things that could benefit your play. After viewing your video several times I noticed that you have a tendency to move your head on the contact stroke just before tip contact is made with the cue ball. This kind of movement could easily cause you to miss a shot that has a smaller margin of error.

The second problem I saw is that you tend to hit the cue ball rather than stroke through it as others have alluded to in this thread. A good stroke is more like a shove than a hit much like the shove some one who plays shuffleboard uses. Don't try to hit the surface of the cue ball on the contact stroke. Just feel your stroke speed and make sure the tip goes straight through the contact point on the cue ball while maintaining the cue speed until it stops naturally. Whatever you do, don't try to guide the cue ball to the target with the cue.

Man, the second paragraph is one of the best analogies of a pool stroke I've ever read. Thinking about the cue ball as a puck and the OB as another puck as in shuffle board really slows things down and smooths out the stroke. Shuffle board is all about feel and a measured follow thru.

My son is coming over today to practice. I'm going to ask him to think about playing shuffle board when he is shooting. I hope he has an awakening.

The Shuffle Board Stroke has been born.

Great post.....thanks:thumbup:

John
 
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One Pocket thanks for the kind post. Please let me know if "the shove" ended up being a benefit to your son. This type of stroke also has the added advantages of better accuracy and speed control which any good stroke would.
 
leminham...We DON'T have to follow through (anymore than just to strike the CB). We DO need to finish our stroke, regardless of how we do it. Your friend who pokes the ball "well" is doing it his way...but not a way I'd recommend or want to teach. It is impossible for having your hand finish in or near your armpit to 'obstruct' your cue. The shot is over once the tip touches the CB. We finish the stroke so that your grip hand has a place to go, and so that you can get away from squeezing the cue too tightly, and/or involving the shoulder in the stroke.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Oh, thank you. Your explanation is crystal clear. I get it now
 
Leminhan.

I am in such fine company here. I am not an Instructor.

Your stance seems to be fine. What you may want to work on is walking into the shot line with your chin, take a couple of steps back and walk into the shot. Your chin will guide you into the proper stance for the shot.

I did notice that a shot you missed involved using the bridge. When using the bridge it should be placed at approximately a 45 deg angle like this ^
just like you were getting into a shooting stance with no bridge. You had it almost in line with the cue.

The reason for the loose grip is that your grip fingers control your bicep muscle. How gently or how firmly it is to be contracted. Once you start doing this notice the distance between the OB and the cue ball. You will want your grip hand to gently squeeze at the very instant the cue ball makes contact with the OB. This will help you to develop feel.

I was in Viet Nam during 1965, 66 and 67. Good to hear from you. Have fun.

Peace
John

"Walk into the shot" <---- Thank you, I will do.
"When using the bridge it should be placed at approximately a 45 deg angle like this ^" <---- This is a new knowledge. Appreciate it, Mr. John!
"I was in Viet Nam during 1965, 66 and 67". This is something I admire about you. It's uncommon that a veteran like you have this attitude.
I studied in University of Houston-Clear Lake, TX for two years (from 2004-2006) and it was a great eye-opening experience.

Thank you very much for your post.
Nam
 
Besides the excellent advice others have give you here I noticed a couple things that could benefit your play. After viewing your video several times I noticed that you have a tendency to move your head on the contact stroke just before tip contact is made with the cue ball. This kind of movement could easily cause you to miss a shot that has a smaller margin of error.

The second problem I saw is that you tend to hit the cue ball rather than stroke through it as others have alluded to in this thread. A good stroke is more like a shove than a hit much like the shove some one who plays shuffleboard uses. Don't try to hit the surface of the cue ball on the contact stroke. Just feel your stroke speed and make sure the tip goes straight through the contact point on the cue ball while maintaining the cue speed until it stops naturally. Whatever you do, don't try to guide the cue ball to the target with the cue.

"I noticed that you have a tendency to move your head on the contact stroke just before tip contact is made with the cue ball." <---- I will try to stay down and completely still. :thumbup:

Thank you for your explanation about the stroke
Nam
 
Feel of the hit of a cue is very subjective. We each have a different idea of what a good hit feels like. But that has nothing to do with why we recommend a more relaxed grip. A tight grip can cause unanticipated cue movement. A relaxed grip results in a more fluid stroke. If you tighten your grip, you also tense up the muscles in your forearm. (make a tight fist and you can quickly feel the tightness in your arm) And as a general rule, the more relaxed our muscles during the stroke, the smoother and straighter we are able to move the cue.

Steve

Instructor Steve,
Theoretically, I absolutely agree and understand that a relaxed grip would be the way to go (I actually read many threads in the "ask the instructors" section and the rationale behind a loose grip). However, personally, I have big issues with a loose grip as mentioned in previous post. Yesterday (which is Sunday - Vietnam time) I went to the pool house and tried again the light cradle grip as suggested. I tried continuously in 10 hours and below are a few things I discovered while experimenting:

Loose grip:
- I am not stroking straight using the loose grip (kayaking, if you will)
- I twist my wrist much more than if I use my current grip. And to me, correct me if I am wrong, twisting the wrist requires great timing to pocket the ball. Otherwise, it would be detrimental to my shooting accuracy.

Follow though: When following through longer than what I was doing
- CB control: The cue ball always travel farther and off position than intended rest area to shoot the next ball, espcially in shots require rolling CB. For the shots which made the CB skidding/sliding (draw, stun) I did OK.
- Cut shots: In many cases, I added unwanted spin to the cue ball and miss the shots. I added unwanted left spin on the CB when cutting OB to the right pocket and added right spin on the OB when cutting OB to the left pocket.

Acceleration:: I found it difficult to accelerate through the CB for small delicate shots. Do we need to accelerate through the CB in these cases at all?

Any suggestions???

Thank you for being patience
Nam
 
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Instructor Steve,
Theoretically, I absolutely agree and understand that a relaxed grip would be the way to go (I actually read many threads in the "ask the instructors" section and the rationale behind a loose grip). However, personally, I have big issues with a loose grip as mentioned in previous post. Yesterday (which is Sunday - Vietnam time) I go to the pool house and tried again the light craddle grip as suggested. I tried continuously in 10 hours and below are a few things I discovery while experimenting:

Loose grip:
- I am not stroking straight using the loose grip (kayaking, if you will)
- I twist my wrist much more than if I use my current grip. And to me, correct me if I am wrong, twisting the wrist requires great timing to pocket the ball. Otherwise, it would be detrimental to my shooting accuracy.

Follow though: When following through longer than what I was doing
- CB control: The cue ball always travel farther and off position than intended rest area to shoot the next ball, espcially in shots require rolling CB. For the shots which made the CB skidding/sliding (draw, stun) I did OK.
- Cut shots: In many cases, I added unwanted spin to the cue ball and miss the shots. I added unwanted left spin on the CB when cutting OB to the right pocket and added right spin on the OB when cutting OB to the left pocket.

Acceleration:: I found it difficult to accelerate through the CB for small delicate shots. Do we need to accelerate through the CB in these cases at all?

Any suggestions???

Thank you for being patience
Nam

I'll probably get my hand slapped for this but I feel pretty strong with wanting to help Nam.

Loose Grip: Standing straight up with your arms to your side, look down at your hand. Notice how the fingers are naturally curved in and the thumb is pointed slightly toward your body. This is the natural hanging of the wrist, fingers and thumb.
Now take the cue and lay it in your fingers, this is called the cradle. With your fingers and feeling the cue with the pads of the fingers bring the cue lightly into the palm of your hand. The cue is cradled in the meaty part of your fingers. If the wrist is hanging down naturally it cant twist unless there is something a little extra you are doing.
At the set position, with the cue almost touching the cue ball your hand will be gently closed. As you bring the cue back the fingers release the cue form the palm and the cue remains in the cradle. As you move the cue forward the fingers once again bring the cue up to the palm lightly.
When the term loose grip is used it should be said that the cue is held so that you can just barely feel the cue in your hand. Loose enough that if someone wanted to they could pull the cue out of your hand.

Follow Thru: Man, speed is something that cant really be taught. Its a feel thing that you will have to practice. You have to be able to feel the weight of the cue ball with your grip hand.
Instead of looking at the object ball as round, look at it as though it is a flat disc. If the cue ball was to glance off the disc where would it go? How much speed is needed?

Acceleration: Cue stick acceleration is controlled by the coordinated efforts of the fingers, wrist and bicep muscle. Your arm just kind of just goes along for the ride. Follow thru is a subject that is subjective. Some say don't drop the elbow and others say dropping the elbow is no big deal because the cue ball has left the cue stick anyway.
I drop my elbow but not because its something I'm trying to do. It just happens.
You asked if you should follow thru the cue ball on every shot. The answer to that is, it all depends on the shot. There are shots where you will just hit the cue ball. I call these shots delicate shots. When these type of shots come up, you will know it.

One thing that may help you is, the object ball is shot into the pocket with your grip hand and the cue is just an extension of your hand. It's a feel thing.

I am not an instructor, the above is just my humble opinion.

Have a good day.:smile:

John
 
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I'll probably get my hand slapped for this but I feel pretty strong with wanting to help Nam.

Loose Grip: Standing straight up with your arms to your side, look down at your hand. Notice how the fingers are naturally curved in and the thumb is pointed slightly toward your body. This is the natural hanging of the wrist, fingers and thumb.
Now take the cue and lay it in your fingers, this is called the cradle. With your fingers and feeling the cue with the pads of the fingers bring the cue lightly into the palm of your hand. The cue is cradled in the meaty part of your fingers. If the wrist is hanging down naturally it cant twist unless there is something a little extra you are doing.
At the set position, with the cue almost touching the cue ball your hand will be gently closed. As you bring the cue back the fingers release the cue form the palm and the cue remains in the cradle. As you move the cue forward the fingers once again bring the cue up to the palm lightly.
When the term loose grip is used it should be said that the cue is held so that you can just barely feel the cue in your hand. Loose enough that if someone wanted to they could pull the cue out of your hand.

Follow Thru: Man, speed is something that cant really be taught. Its a feel thing that you will have to practice. You have to be able to feel the weight of the cue ball with your grip hand.
Instead of looking at the object ball as round, look at it as though it is a flat disc. If the cue ball was to glance off the disc where would it go? How much speed is needed?

Acceleration: Cue stick acceleration is controlled by the coordinated efforts of the fingers, wrist and bicep muscle. Your arm just kind of just goes along for the ride. Follow thru is a subject that is subjective. Some say don't drop the elbow and others say dropping the elbow is no big deal because the cue ball has left the cue stick anyway.
I drop my elbow but not because its something I'm trying to do. It just happens.
You asked if you should follow thru the cue ball on every shot. The answer to that is, it all depends on the shot. There are shots where you will just hit the cue ball. I call these shots delicate shots. When these type of shots come up, you will know it.

One thing that may help you is, the object ball is shot into the pocket with your grip hand and the cue is just an extension of your hand. It's a feel thing.

I am not an instructor, the above is just my humble opinion.

Have a good day.:smile:


John

Thank you so much Mr. John. I am really improved following your advice.
I heard the phrase "extension of your arm" so many time but I have so much clearer understanding with your explanation. Appreciate your insights.
If you ever think of visiting Vietnam, pls do not hesitate to contact me. You are more than welcomed. I will show you around the city (Hochiminh)Nam
 
Instructor FranCrimi,
I can't imagine a crowding arm would affect my playability that much. By holding the cue a few inches back and straighten my arm, I feel more confident and, as a result, pocketing more balls with a looser grip and having better CB control. Thank you for pointing out my flaws.
Nam
 
For some reason I play very well with a rest (mechanical bridge) so I'll give my input.
The reason you missed that 5 is mostly because you had far too much elevation, i.e. angle of the cue to the table surface. Get down lower and more parallel to the table especially when playing with the rest. Don't shoot down on the cue ball because it can swerve easily. You grip the cue all wrong when playing with it, looks like you're playing darts not pool (Watch some good snooker players on TV and see how it is done). And that was the easy shot. What if you had to play more demanding position, perhaps with some power?
This is a neglected part of the game by many, but very important.
 
For some reason I play very well with a rest (mechanical bridge) so I'll give my input.
The reason you missed that 5 is mostly because you had far too much elevation, i.e. angle of the cue to the table surface. Get down lower and more parallel to the table especially when playing with the rest. Don't shoot down on the cue ball because it can swerve easily. You grip the cue all wrong when playing with it, looks like you're playing darts not pool (Watch some good snooker players on TV and see how it is done). And that was the easy shot. What if you had to play more demanding position, perhaps with some power?
This is a neglected part of the game by many, but very important.


+1 :thumbup:
 
Thank you so much Mr. John. I am really improved following your advice.
I heard the phrase "extension of your arm" so many time but I have so much clearer understanding with your explanation. Appreciate your insights.
If you ever think of visiting Vietnam, pls do not hesitate to contact me. You are more than welcomed. I will show you around the city (Hochiminh)Nam

No problem Nam, glad I could help.

One thing to work on is to remember that the bicep muscle is what brings the cue forward. The controlling of the bicep is thru the fingers in your grip hand (cradle), they control the contraction rate. As always its a feel thing.

A way to feel it is ( standing straight up) to have your arm hanging straight down. As you start to bring your arm up to make a muscle start closing your hand.

When your down in the shooting position its the same thing, only you are making a muscle from a bent over position. When executed properly it will feel like your arm is disconnected from your body.

I don't know if you have ever played shuffle board, but that is the same stroke and follow thru you want to use in pool. (thanks JLD)

Thanks for the invite, way too many hours in the air for me.

Enjoy Nam

John
 
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