I understand that in the BCAPL, the 8 ball spots back up if it is pocketed on the break.
Do you have a tip that is not listed?
8 Ball POOL TIPS on the Bar Box
- Thread starter JoeyA
- Start date
I understand that in the BCAPL, the 8 ball spots back up if it is pocketed on the break.
Do you have a tip that is not listed?
AimWithYourMind
Banned
I am very confident that this is not wise to consider as a rule.
After the break, the only consideration is which group gives you the highest percentage chance to win the game. The number of balls left for each group is not a consideration.
The only observation that needs to be made is the position of each ball on the table. I am very confident that one does not need to use up any cognitive energy on counting the number of balls in each group.
Welcome to the forum!
OK, here's another one that I just thought of:
Walk around the table, especially at the beginning of the rack, because some of those patterns might not be so good. Looking from where the cue ball lies only is not giving the layout the respect that it deserves.
You WILL see things that you did not see from the original cue ball position and it will help you make better decisions during the game, especially as it relates to your patterns in running out.
Walk around the table, especially at the beginning of the rack, because some of those patterns might not be so good. Looking from where the cue ball lies only is not giving the layout the respect that it deserves.
You WILL see things that you did not see from the original cue ball position and it will help you make better decisions during the game, especially as it relates to your patterns in running out.
AimWithYourMind
Banned
This is why I am not a believer in conventional wisdom. It leads to errors. The original poster might have had the right idea in his mind, but he did not portray it correctly.
Now, others are reading the material and are making an assumption that it is the right thing to do.
There is absolutely no benefit in counting the balls after the break. In your mind you will decide which group gives you the highest chance to win the game, and that formulation is not assisted in any way by counting the balls.
Absolutely correct! If the 8-ball rules one is playing by allow for an open table after a ball is made on the break (and not the "take what you make" rules), it doesn't make a hill o' beans difference how many balls of each category are on the table. Rather, what's most important, is the layout of each category of balls.
Yesterday evening, I'd just gotten back from a business trip in northern Massachusetts -- drove 4 hours straight from the customer site, right to the poolroom where my 8-ball league was playing last night (still had my suitcase in the car, and fortunately I took my cues with me). I was able to make it to league obligation on time, and additionally, my team was short, so I had to play twice. I was exhausted from the long drive (through rush-hour traffic in Boston, MA and Hartford, CT no less), but a cup of coffee helped. I won both my matches 7 - 2 and 7 - 1 (with several BnRs in there, a 3-pack in the second match). What assisted me, was *how* I played my matches. Being not as energetic as I'd normally be, I took a little more time to examine the table layout, and I made decisions based on the following (I look at all these things before I shoot a shot):
1. Is the table even runnable to begin with? Are both categories so tied-up that it's not even worth attempting a runout (which, if failed, will work against you -- you're breaking out your opponent's ball category)? I look to see where there might be an easy lockup safety opportunity -- where I pocket a ball to establish my category, and then play a safety that has my opponent kicking at a ball right out of the chute. Look for "barricades" -- a grouping of *your* ball category that you can hide the cue ball behind where no window is offered at the opponent's category.
2. What category of balls is blocked from a pocket by the opposite caterogy? (All other things considered, I often choose the category that is blocking the other category from pockets.)
3. Is the 8-ball itself blocked from a pocket -- and which category is it? (All other things considered, I often choose that category of balls that is blocking the 8-ball from a pocket.)
4. What trouble spots exist on the table? Does one category have more clusters than the other? (All other things considered, I often choose the category that is the least clustered. An exception may be where clusters have easy break balls, where I can leverage my 14.1 skills to effect simple break outs.)
5. Bank shots vs. trying to use the cue ball to break balls out -- which do you choose? Depends on the table layout; I might choose to leave a ball where it is, so I can bank it (especially if leaving it there blocks my opponent from shooting that ball). I play a lot of one pocket, so banks don't scare me at all -- I exploit bank opportunities, in fact. Someone with lesser banking skills may choose to effect a breakout of the that ball. Leverage *your* particular skills in each situation.
There are many such decisions like this, but these are the high-level ones. Obviously, every table layout is different, and you have to "see" the opportunities offered to you. Leverage your skills in doing so -- skills built by playing players better than you, and leverage your particular specialties.
Also, take into mind the type of equipment you're playing on -- I played on a 9-footer last night, so I was not adverse to bumping balls to break out clusters, taking bank shots, etc. On a 9-footer, I can really let my stroke out. On a barbox (especially a Valley with a non-standard cue ball), I would make different decisions -- I wouldn't be so quick to bump balls in that tight real estate, because unless one is very careful, you can bump a ball and break out a cluster, only to have each of those two balls separate and create two or more clusters with other balls to replace the one you just broke up!
JoeyA: I know you're after a "cheat sheet" (Cliff Notes?) for playing 8-ball, which is not possible. You have to tap the knowledge out there (books, DVDs, people), and take it to the table in practice. Reading a "tip sheet" ain't going to make you a better 8-ball player, especially in such a short period of time.
But I hope the above helps add to your list, in whatever function that list serves.
-Sean
AimWithYourMind
Banned
Sean is right I believe.
It would be very difficult to come up with any sort of worthwhile cheat sheet for 8-ball.
You have to be dynamic. Your mind has to solve problems quickly. You could print this thread out and have it out during your match, but I am doubtful that you could make use of it.
Yeah, I agree. 8ball is a thinker's game as opposed to 9ball which would be a shooter's game. That's not to say 9ball players don't think and 8ball players don't shoot. Both do. The great difference is that in 9ball, your options are extremely limited. Oftentimes, there is clearly a right way and a wrong way of doing things. In 8ball, it's important to have a clear objective (ie., must break out cluster from right side, must get straight on the 2-ball, must keep cueball on left half of table when missing). Sometimes there are a few ways to get there and sometimes there's only one way.
What can make 8ball REALLY difficult ESPECIALLY on a barbox is that, unlike 9ball, you find yourself needing to get extremely precise position in order to run out. Sometimes, getting on the correct side won't work. You have to land right on the X and when those situations come up, it's important to appreciate how delicate they are.
I love the moments in Vegas that come up where I break, 4 balls fly in, cueball is laid up perfect and there are no problems. I can do a quick scan and start knockin' 'em down like a fat bowling ball picking up one-pin-spares. Unfortunately, inbetween these amazing moments are the ones where you have to actually play. Those games are frustrating and hard and the grand masters at BCAPL in Vegas who do it perfect over and over again always have my attention. This game is nothing like 9ball which is probably why I love it so much.
Yep, and that's a lot of the reason why a lot of 9-ballers don't like 8-ball -- precisely because you have to *think* (there, I said it, and I fully expect to catch heat for it). It's not like "break, where's the 1-ball... ok, push/shoot/safe... where's the 2-ball... ok, shoot/safe... where's the 3-ball...," etc. In 8-ball, the precision required is not "zones" as in 9-ball, but rather precise spots. Miss that spot, and now your pattern has been completely altered -- or even catastrophically destroyed, in fact, if you miss position on your last ball or couple of balls. On a barbox, it's crucial to have that level of precision -- a level of precision decayed by that strange/non-standard cue ball inherent on Valley tables. No cheat sheet is going to prepare you for this -- you have to spend time, and lots of it, at the table getting practice and experience. Especially if you're normally a rotation player. That's why 9-ballers don't often like 8-ball -- dismissing it as a "banger's game" -- because they'd rather "shoot on automatic -- without thinking" and have the game itself dictate the way the game is played merely by the numbering on the balls.
I like 8-ball. Being a straight pooler, I find the patterns interesting and even a nice change of pace away from straight pool, because the "recoverability" options in 8-ball are less than 14.1 (except when we're talking the keyball and breakball, obviously). And like you say, Jude, it's nice when you smash the rack, and you have before you a "Marianas Turkey Shoot." But you have to deal with the veritable slugfests, too, where you have a table layout that is not conducive to an easy runout, and you have to parry with your opponent on safeties, etc.
JoeyA: I highly second Hu's advice to take a roll of quarters with you, and just start feeding that barbox at Buffalo Bills. Get experience at this table -- experience that no cheat sheet is going to replace.
-Sean
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Sorry Sean, you missed the boat on this one, at least as far as your last paragraph is concerned.
One reason for this thread is to simply list the finer points of playing 8 ball. For me, for the most part, it is a refresher, since I don't normally play on the bar tables and I seldom play 8 ball anymore but at one time, I played 8 ball quite well. I realize quite well is a relative term but it is the one I'll use nevertheless. I also enjoy reading what other people think are important points to consider when playing 8 ball.
As far as "tapping knowledge out there is concerned (books, dvds, people) et cetera", this forum is a knowledge center and the knowledge can be learned here as well as the other places you mentioned, so your suggestion that "You have to tap the knowledge out there (books, DVDs, people), and take it to the table in practice." is well just not the only method for gaining knowledge. These lists are excellent ways for players to improve their pool game.
Cliff notes or "cheat sheets" as you call them are important references and they can be committed to memory and you can use these references when playing the game of 8 ball and you don't need enormous amounts of time at the table. Some of these pool tips do not even need practice and can be implemented simply by remembering the reference and using it.
Others do require practice but two weeks is an enormous amount of time to practice any of these simple tips.
Which gets me to the second reason for starting this thread and that is I enjoy helping people learn about pool.
If more people spent time trying to help others in this forum instead of making negative comments, the forum would be a better place.
Some of your suggestions are very good and when I have some more time I will try to condense them for brevity's sake. I realize you are kind of long-winded (I like that about you) but in the context of "cheat sheets" I don't want an encyclopedia for this thread.
(Thanks for going into such intimate detail).Right now, I have to get ready to go to our weekly one pocket tournament.
This may seem rather basic to some people, but make sure to remember that the eight is one of your balls, also. I have watched numerous league matches where guys got break-outs and played a rack well, and then didn't have a shot on the eight. If the eight is tied up with my opponents balls, sometimes I will wait until later in the rack to break it out. Seems like you have some pretty good hints here, though. Thanks for starting the thread.
Andy
Andy
Tons of good advice in this thread. If anyone hasnt mentioned it already, it is always a good idea to identify the key ball before the 8 much like in straight pool. One tip that helped me quite a bit was to try to start on one half of the table. Clear all of those balls first then move to the other half of the table. Preferably save the half with the 8 ball for last if possible.This makes the cue ball much easier to control and racks are much easier to finish off. I see weaker players all the time sending to cue ball back and forth down the length of the table and I just shake my head.
Sorry Sean, you missed the boat on this one, at least as far as your last paragraph is concerned.
One reason for this thread is to simply list the finer points of playing 8 ball. For me, for the most part, it is a refresher, since I don't normally play on the bar tables and I seldom play 8 ball anymore but at one time, I played 8 ball quite well. I realize quite well is a relative term but it is the one I'll use nevertheless. I also enjoy reading what other people think are important points to consider when playing 8 ball.
As far as "tapping knowledge out there is concerned (books, dvds, people) et cetera", this forum is a knowledge center and the knowledge can be learned here as well as the other places you mentioned, so your suggestion that "You have to tap the knowledge out there (books, DVDs, people), and take it to the table in practice." is well just not the only method for gaining knowledge. These lists are excellent ways for players to improve their pool game.
Cliff notes or "cheat sheets" as you call them are important references and they can be committed to memory and you can use these references when playing the game of 8 ball and you don't need enormous amounts of time at the table. Some of these pool tips do not even need practice and can be implemented simply by remembering the reference and using it.
Others do require practice but two weeks is an enormous amount of time to practice any of these simple tips.
Which gets me to the second reason for starting this thread and that is I enjoy helping people learn about pool.
If more people spent time trying to help others in this forum instead of making negative comments, the forum would be a better place.
Some of your suggestions are very good and when I have some more time I will try to condense them for brevity's sake. I realize you are kind of long-winded (I like that about you) but in the context of "cheat sheets" I don't want an encyclopedia for this thread.
Right now, I have to get ready to go to our weekly one pocket tournament.
Joey:
Couple of questions:
1. Concerning your blue ink, where was I negative in any way/shape/form? Sure, I tried to remind you what I believe is right -- that "cheat sheets" for 8-ball (especially for one as you, a self-admitted "rarely play 8-ball anymore" guy), while helpful for reinforcement reasons, aren't substitutes for time at the table to get your game back into shape. But *nowhere* was I negative. Perhaps my unwillingness to jump on the cheat-sheet bandwagon is viewed as a canned "negative" by you? (That would be a shame.)
2. I like your "good cop, bad cop" routine in admonishing me for my detail ("long-windedness" -- bad cop), "which you like about me" (good cop), "but for brevity's sake in the context of cheat-sheets, don't want to create an encyclopedia" (bad cop), "but thanks for going into so much detail" (good cop). They should put you on Law & Order. I could just hear the "<Bonk-bonk!>" opening-scene sound effects now...
3. You are firm in your beliefs about cheat sheets and other topics, under the guise of "helping one's pool game." But so are we -- and our opinions may not match yours, but are still valid. So please, put your 1950s-teacher-with-broad-rimmed-glasses ruler away -- rapping the knuckles of those that are not negative, but actually trying to help you, perhaps with news/suggestions that you may not want to hear -- is inappropriate. Just as you like to make the broad generalization about my long-windedness, so I will make one about you -- that you like to admonish people who you think are negative -- or try to apply that innuendo to people who disagree with you, with the safety valve that you can simply back away and say "I wasn't talking specifically about you, I was only making a general observation" get-out-of-jail-free card. I think you miss the boat on a lot of good, strong, helpful stuff that comes your way, but doesn't fit your mold PRECISELY (i.e. cheat sheets in this case), so you "admonish" with blue ink.
Two weeks is not an "enormous" amount of time for a game that's radically different from the other games you play -- and that includes one pocket, btw (a game I also love and enjoy, but I recognize its vast differences from 8-ball).
-Sean
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There is some thinking sure...
You have to analyze the balls after the break and pick the ones that have the least problems, are runnable or cause the most problems for your opponent.... Then you have to see a pattern thru the whole rack using insurance balls to be able to play position and still have a chance to stay on the table if you come up short or long of your mark.....
Defending pockets by lagging balls close and nudge safes are truly different than in 9ball.. But in truth the 9ball skill set just allows for smaller pattern consideration.. If you can get out you can use 3 ball patterns...
In 8ball 3 ball patterns work as well but you are constantly modifying the pattern because you may have to deal with clusters or trouble balls when you miss position.... In 9ball a recovery shot can win the game... In 8ball the recovery shot can very well lose the game if you miss your cluster or end up with no position to build a winning pattern....
I cut my teeth on 8ball and don't hardly play it much now but it's likely my strongest games because of the patterns... I can see 8ball patterns the second I walk up to the table after the break... I know to look for the pattern that has me shooting stop shots to start and end the rack and that has a key ball stop shot I will shot before the 8...
Not a whole lot rides on being on the right side of the ball if I have chosen patterns that will leave 2 or more options for the next ball and still have valid pattern to deal with trouble...
8ball is less punishing for your mistakes on being on the right side of the ball... you may only have 1-2 shots where that will be the deal breaker.. In 9ball being on the wrong side of any of the balls may make running out just a memory that was in your head a few seconds ago.......
You have to analyze the balls after the break and pick the ones that have the least problems, are runnable or cause the most problems for your opponent.... Then you have to see a pattern thru the whole rack using insurance balls to be able to play position and still have a chance to stay on the table if you come up short or long of your mark.....
Defending pockets by lagging balls close and nudge safes are truly different than in 9ball.. But in truth the 9ball skill set just allows for smaller pattern consideration.. If you can get out you can use 3 ball patterns...
In 8ball 3 ball patterns work as well but you are constantly modifying the pattern because you may have to deal with clusters or trouble balls when you miss position.... In 9ball a recovery shot can win the game... In 8ball the recovery shot can very well lose the game if you miss your cluster or end up with no position to build a winning pattern....
I cut my teeth on 8ball and don't hardly play it much now but it's likely my strongest games because of the patterns... I can see 8ball patterns the second I walk up to the table after the break... I know to look for the pattern that has me shooting stop shots to start and end the rack and that has a key ball stop shot I will shot before the 8...
Not a whole lot rides on being on the right side of the ball if I have chosen patterns that will leave 2 or more options for the next ball and still have valid pattern to deal with trouble...
8ball is less punishing for your mistakes on being on the right side of the ball... you may only have 1-2 shots where that will be the deal breaker.. In 9ball being on the wrong side of any of the balls may make running out just a memory that was in your head a few seconds ago.......
I use safety play early in the game if I see I can't get out, or have a trouble ball that there seems no way to get to. Like it has been pointed out, the worst thing you can do is clear all your balls off the table and then not have a shot at the 7th ball. If I see I can't get out, I literally "hunt" for a good safe where I can lock my opponent on the back of one of my balls, or even better, lock him on the back of my ball glued to the cushion as well..
If the table is racking poorly then your break is too. Before your change your break iron the table. What I mean by this is take a ball in your hand an rub the cloth were all the balls in the rack sit. This changes the way the fibers lay as rack after rack have bunched and dimpled them.
Rerack and see the difference. The headball my never change as it may be over tapped. In that case bring all the balls in the rack up tight to the headball snug in its little crater.
Rerack and see the difference. The headball my never change as it may be over tapped. In that case bring all the balls in the rack up tight to the headball snug in its little crater.
I don't play a lot of 8 ball, but this seems like very good advice, especially the 'identify the last ball before the 8 like you were playing for position on last ball in straight pool". I'm going to try this myself. Thanks for posting. :smile:
Joey:
Couple of questions:
1. Concerning your blue ink, where was I negative in any way/shape/form? Sure, I tried to remind you what I believe is right -- that "cheat sheets" for 8-ball (especially for one as you, a self-admitted "rarely play 8-ball anymore" guy), while helpful for reinforcement reasons, aren't substitutes for time at the table to get your game back into shape. But *nowhere* was I negative. Perhaps my unwillingness to jump on the cheat-sheet bandwagon is viewed as a canned "negative" by you? (That would be a shame.)
2. I like your "good cop, bad cop" routine in admonishing me for my detail ("long-windedness" -- bad cop), "which you like about me" (good cop), "but for brevity's sake in the context of cheat-sheets, don't want to create an encyclopedia" (bad cop), "but thanks for going into so much detail" (good cop). They should put you on Law & Order. I could just hear the "<Bonk-bonk!>" opening-scene sound effects now...
3. You are firm in your beliefs about cheat sheets and other topics, under the guise of "helping one's pool game." But so are we -- and our opinions may not match yours, but are still valid. So please, put your 1950s-teacher-with-broad-rimmed-glasses ruler away -- rapping the knuckles of those that are not negative, but actually trying to help you, perhaps with news/suggestions that you may not want to hear -- is inappropriate. Just as you like to make the broad generalization about my long-windedness, so I will make one about you -- that you like to admonish people who you think are negative -- or try to apply that innuendo to people who disagree with you, with the safety valve that you can simply back away and say "I wasn't talking specifically about you, I was only making a general observation" get-out-of-jail-free card. I think you miss the boat on a lot of good, strong, helpful stuff that comes your way, but doesn't fit your mold PRECISELY (i.e. cheat sheets in this case), so you "admonish" with blue ink.
Two weeks is not an "enormous" amount of time for a game that's radically different from the other games you play -- and that includes one pocket, btw (a game I also love and enjoy, but I recognize its vast differences from 8-ball).
-Sean
1. The blue font sentence was my sentiments toward everyone, including myself. Don't take it personally.
2. I've never been accused of being a cop, even a bad one.
3. I love your suggestions and saying that I would get back to them at a later date spoke volumes of that. I think you are reading far too much into my blue, bold fonts. They had NOTHING to do with your suggestions, in fact it was supposed to have the opposite effect. My bold, blue font statement had EVERYTHING to do with suggesting that EVERYONE should be trying to help others with their pool game, rather than ripping into and tearing down one another's personna. You do that quite often and your post was no different, except that you believe that this list is not as worthwhile as seeking out knowledge from other sources. At least that's what your post indicated to me. Your post also insinauated that two weeks was not enough time to spend implementing these pool tips into your pool game. We just think differently about that as well and that's all there is to that.
Two weeks for me is an enormous amount of time to learn simple things like the suggestions provided by you, the other posters and myself.
It's all good Sean. Just post your suggestions and help others to improve their game. You play a great game as evidence by your scores and the amount of time you play and you have a lot to offer people especially with your long-winded approach to explanations.
j/k, j/k. I like it when you explain yourself thoroughly. I don't like to have to explain myself much more than I do already. I hope you understand that. Perhaps in person, I would be able and willing to do a better job of that.. Thanks for posting your valuable insights.JoeyA
I doubt that anyone is going to print this thread out and have it at their table during the match. If you can't read these tips and retain them to memory, then you had better hit a million balls. You should practice most of them, especially the ones which require a deft touch or precision shape, caroms, banks and perfect cue ball control. Some of the others are simple mental decisions that you should be aware of and not much more than that. I try to hit lots of balls, learn more, relearn old techniques and tips that might have gotten a little stale from sitting up, learn new things and put those into play as often as possible. Two weeks is a very long time to learn to practice these simple but important pool tips, at least it is for me.