9 ball rule question

[m79a]

Never had this happen before. The 6 ball is hanging on the edge of the corner pocket. The shooter is hooked on and has to kick at it up table. When the cue ball strikes the opposite end rail the 6 falls in. The cue ball comes down toward the pocket being kicked at and has perfect shape on the 7. What do you do?

 

[m79a]

It had been more than 5 seconds. Thanks.

 

[Rod]

If the shooter waited the obligatory 5sec after all balls stopped moving, the table is set up as it was when he stepped up.

Replace 6 ball, cueball and any other balls that moved due to the shot.

If no ref is present and the two parties cannot agree on the placement of the balls, re-rack.

dld

That's how I rule it as well. I was the TD and had that happen. The player kicked and missed the o/b buy a couple of inches and the ball fell. She thought it was good. I said, no close only counts with hand grenades! lol Then I told her the ruling.

Rod

 

[ctyhntr]

I say its a foul as there was no contact with the lowest ball on the table. Re-run the scenario by replacing the 6 with the 9, it would get re-spotted.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Read the rule books. See BCA's general rules 1.7.

The ball fell from no contact. Doesn't matter what ball it is, the rules state that the table is set up as before the shot.

dld

That's interesting though. Obviously, if I kick at the ball and it falls as my CB is heading towards it that's a reboot. But if the ball falls after the kick has obviously missed it, then a do over I guess let's the guy get off without a foul (and a better idea of where to kick on the 2nd chance). Pretty rare situation though, usually only comes up hill/hill in the final.

 

[Rod]

That's interesting though. Obviously, if I kick at the ball and it falls as my CB is heading towards it that's a reboot. But if the ball falls after the kick has obviously missed it, then a do over I guess let's the guy get off without a foul (and a better idea of where to kick on the 2nd chance). Pretty rare situation though, usually only comes up hill/hill in the final.

The ball gets re-spotted regardless. In my post above the shooter kicked at the ball & hit the rail when the ball fell. However it would not have hit the ball. In this case it re-spotted & the incoming player had ball in hand. The ball fell & did not interfere with the shot.

The OP said it come down towards the pocket after the ball fell. If it would not have hit the ball, determined by a ref or agreed on by both players, it spots. The incoming player has BIH. It did not interfere with the outcome, so no replay. That is how I interpret the rules.

If no ref and an agreement between the players can not be made, replay the game.

Rod

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

The ball gets re-spotted regardless. In my post above the shooter kicked at the ball & hit the rail when the ball fell. However it would not have hit the ball. In this case it re-spotted & the incoming player had ball in hand. The ball fell & did not interfere with the shot.

The OP said it come down towards the pocket after the ball fell. If it would not have hit the ball, determined by a ref or agreed on by both players, it spots. The incoming player has BIH. It did not interfere with the outcome, so no replay. That is how I interpret the rules.

If no ref and an agreement between the players can not be made, replay the game.

Rod

OK, but what's the call if both players agree the CB would have made a good hit on the ball, but it falls as the CB approaches?

 

[derangedhermit]

Read the rule books. See BCA's general rules 1.7.

The ball fell from no contact. Doesn't matter what ball it is, the rules state that the table is set up as before the shot.

dld

Not in full. There are two cases. It is set up as before *only if the cue ball rolls over the spot where the moved ball was* (bold red below). Otherwise, it is just replaced "and play continues" (bold below). So if it was clear the cue ball would have missed the 6, then the 6 is replaced, and the incoming player either (I'm not sure here) gets BIH for a foul or plays it as it sits. My interpretation would be incoming player gets BIH.

From http://www.billiards.com/article/bca-general-rules-of-pocket-billiards-p2

30. BALLS MOVING SPONTANEOUSLY. If a ball shifts, settles, turns or otherwise moves "by itself," the ball shall remain in the position it assumed and play continues. A hanging ball that falls into a pocket "by itself" after being motionless for 5 seconds or longer shall be replaced as closely as possible to its position prior to falling, and play shall continue. If an object ball drops into a pocket "by itself" as a player shoots at it, so that the cue ball passes over the spot the ball had been on, unable to hit it, the cue ball and object ball are to be replaced to their positions prior to the stroke, and the player may shoot again. Any other object balls disturbed on the stroke are also to be replaced to their original positions before the shooter replays.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Not in full. There are two cases. It is set up as before *only if the cue ball rolls over the spot where the moved ball was* (bold red below). Otherwise, it is just replaced "and play continues" (bold below). So if it was clear the cue ball would have missed the 6, then the 6 is replaced, and the incoming player either (I'm not sure here) gets BIH for a foul or plays it as it sits. My interpretation would be incoming player gets BIH.

From http://www.billiards.com/article/bca-general-rules-of-pocket-billiards-p2

30. BALLS MOVING SPONTANEOUSLY. If a ball shifts, settles, turns or otherwise moves "by itself," the ball shall remain in the position it assumed and play continues. A hanging ball that falls into a pocket "by itself" after being motionless for 5 seconds or longer shall be replaced as closely as possible to its position prior to falling, and play shall continue. If an object ball drops into a pocket "by itself" as a player shoots at it, so that the cue ball passes over the spot the ball had been on, unable to hit it, the cue ball and object ball are to be replaced to their positions prior to the stroke, and the player may shoot again. Any other object balls disturbed on the stroke are also to be replaced to their original positions before the shooter replays.

Could you provide a link to that rule directly from the BCA website? I'm not sure how old that link is, but the BCA now follows the WPA rules and I can't find that rule anywhere at the BCA or WPA websites. I mean the rule makes sense and all, I just can't find it at the official source.

The BCAPL does have this provision in the rules. Interestingly, it is only a foul (BIH to the incoming player) if the CB strikes an illegal ball first or any other ball passes through that spot. It doesn't say anything about the situation where the CB strikes no ball. The ball is only re-spotted if it is the game ball, if the ball falls during the shot.

Thanks.

 

[Rod]

OK, but what's the call if both players agree the CB would have made a good hit on the ball, but it falls as the CB approaches?

Then as a ref I would go by the rules and replay the shot. That's unfortunate for the shooter but its the rules. I suppose if both players agreed (without a ref) to place the c/b in the approximate location(had contact occurred) the game would continue/no foul.

Rod

 

[derangedhermit]

Could you provide a link to that rule directly from the BCA website? I'm not sure how old that link is, but the BCA now follows the WPA rules and I can't find that rule anywhere at the BCA or WPA websites. I mean the rule makes sense and all, I just can't find it at the official source.

Thanks.

http://home.bca-pool.com/displaycommon.cfm?an=1&subarticlenbr=54#generalrules

Closest is 1.7 Balls Settling, as mentioned above - see below for text. I still think there are two possible outcomes under this rule for balls settling in a pocket.

Bold: Ball drops, no effect on play, ball is replaced, proceed with play.
Red: Ball drops, has effect on shot, restore position and replay shot.

Since the ball dropping in the OP had no effect on the shot, I think it is "restore (dropped ball) as closely as possible" and continue play; meaning BIH for the incoming player if it was clear that the CB would not have struck the dropped ball. If this is not agreed, then restore ball and replay shot. This seems fair to both players.

1.7 Balls Settling
A ball may settle slightly after it appears to have stopped, possibly due to slight imperfections in the ball or the table. Unless this causes a ball to fall into a pocket, it is considered a normal hazard of play, and the ball will not be moved back. If a ball falls into a pocket as the result of such settling, it is restored as closely as possible to its original position. If a settling ball falls into a pocket during or just prior to a shot, and this has an effect on the shot, the referee will restore the position and the shot will be replayed. The shooter is not penalized for shooting while a ball is settling. See also 8.3 Ball Pocketed.

 

[ctyhntr]

A common league scenario playing in bar where there are no onsite refs, just two teams, their captains with the scoresheets playing on a coin-op bar box. So, if I'm reading the rules right, in a barbox situation where you can't bring the balls back up, then it defaults to 1.9 (stalemate), and both players have to replay the game.

In the spirit of the game, would BIH foul be an easier to implement as a penalty?

Read the rule books. See BCA's general rules 1.7.

The ball fell from no contact. Doesn't matter what ball it is, the rules state that the table is set up as before the shot.

dld

 

[tatcat2000]

The BCAPL does have this provision in the rules. Interestingly, it is only a foul (BIH to the incoming player) if the CB strikes an illegal ball first or any other ball passes through that spot. It doesn't say anything about the situation where the CB strikes no ball. The ball is only re-spotted if it is the game ball, if the ball falls during the shot.

Dogs (and all): for BCAPL play, read BCAPL 1-49-4 just a little more carefully. Every scenario mentioned in the thread so far is covered, including your proposed situation in post #7, which falls under 1-49-4-a for BCAPL.

For WSR play, WSR 1.7 third sentence (no effect on outcome of the shot) covers the situation in which the CB clearly would not have contacted the spontaneously falling ball.

Again, if talking about a situation in which it is clearly determined that the CB would NOT have contacted the hanging OB:

Both BCAPL 1-49 and WSR 1.7 provide for restoring the spontaneously falling ball. But neither the silence of WSR 1.7 on what to do after restoration (which implies continuing play), nor the provision of BCAPL 1-49-4-a to "continue play" after restoration, provide for ignoring the foul for no legal contact by the CB. Therefore the hanging ball is restored and the foul is enforced.

Coin-op table - get the bartender to open the table or pry open your wallet and play the game properly.:smile: I don't care which, but restore the ball if called for.

:smile:
Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net

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