why are foreigh cues so inexpensive compared to american cues

S

sluggerknuckles

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hello everyone and thank you in advance for your knowledge and opinions.

My question is....Why are cue sticks from the Phillipines so much cheaper than American manufactured custom cues?

Last year I heard tons of buzz about Joel Davidas and his cue making abilities. I looked around and saw a beautiful aboyna burl and grained ebony with burl points and 5 veneers on each point with 6 points.

Construction looks good, quality seems there. Not thrilled about the shafts but I have hit with worse.

Why is that cue less than 400.00 and to get that made here is well over 1000.00?

Is it the quality of material, machinery, etc?

I have recently moved into the custom cues with an Ariel Carmeli coming next week, and a whisler and an ned morris already in my case. I just dumped a few old hueblers and a norwela becuase there is no use holding onto cues that I don't love or will never increase in value.

I would like to hear your opinions. I am American through and through!!!! I would just like to know why there is a price difference?
 
Time is the answer. Myself as a cue maker would love to make $20 an hour. Building a cue takes alot of time. They value their time much less then us in the US. Their cost of living and standard of living is much lower. Their are cue makers there that have very high standard ,but overall the cues don't hold up in our climate.
 
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Average income in Phil is about $5600 USDollars. There is a slight difference in the cost of living and wages therefore a slight difference in costs.

Bob Danielson
www.bdcuesandcomix.com
 
Why dont the cues hold up in our climate

Why don't the cues hold up in our climate. Is it because they just pump them out and don't take the time to stabilize the wood?
 
sluggerknuckles said:
Why don't the cues hold up in our climate. Is it because they just pump them out and don't take the time to stabilize the wood?
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There have been many people who have been happy with their cues and have had no problem, but the humidity and temperature difference can cause warpage. It depends as much on the characteristics of an individual piece of wood as it does the maker's skill.
 
I can personally attest to the climate changes affecting the cue. Please dont get me wrong, the work on one cue I have that came from the Phillipines seems to be good and I get a lot of compliments on the look. Having said that, the cue finish is next to horrible and it has already cracked (I think the wood has shrunk where the handle is attached). It was a $400 lesson....The cue hits ok, but I will have to have it redone to have any hope of selling it to someone.
 
That isn't inexpensive for someone living in the Philippines. 400.00 would pay rent on a 3 bedroom for a month. 400.00 in Ventura Ca. would get you half a studio appt..
 
Have you seen what QPerfect cues sell for (Ronnie Powell)? NOT cheap. Yeah, he's American, but in the Phillipines. On his webpage he claims it's the climate that causes problems and he does all his work in climate-controlled environment. I've noticed that it looks like they (the Filipino makers) seem to turn their cues out pretty quick, indicating they may not be resting their stuff much between turns, which can equal unstable wood...
 
What is the humidity level there, on average.....and then what is it here in the US??? Not counting the really humid areas like florida. The humidity difference can take a really stable cue in the phillipines and then send it to say,....arizona and guess what....it warps and or the inlays pop out, etc. Areas of Florida or other high humidity areas the cue may stay good. Does that mean they over all build a bad cue?, NO NOT AT ALL, It just maybe that the product doesn't do well in certain enviroments, that's all. As far as cost, they are content with the price they charge, as far as the cost of living is concerned. Now also consider, most there don't have the equipment and utillities bills that we have. I know for a fact that I have in my garage shop, as a hobbyist, have more equipment that most builders in the Phillipines tend to have and those same people turn out some great looking cues, with out the high cost of those tools....
JMO,
Dave.
 
Let me first state that it seems unfair to lump ALL Phillipino cuemakers into a single category. However, I have had the opportunity to put weight bolts - at the customer's request - into a couple of Phillipino-made cues. They had a lot of inlays and pretty woods on the outside - ebony and burl - so I wasn't surprised that they were cored. What did surprise me was the nature/quality of the wood they were cored with - certainly wasn't a hardwood.

And the shaftwood that is used on many of these cues has already been mentioned. I don't know what it is, but it is not maple. And yes, whose shafts and butts sometimes warp here in the 10-20% average relative humidity of Denver. I have a shaft in right now that I'm trying to straighten.

Gary
 
GBCues said:
They had a lot of inlays and pretty woods on the outside - ebony and burl - so I wasn't surprised that they were cored. What did surprise me was the nature/quality of the wood they were cored with - certainly wasn't a hardwood.

And the shaftwood that is used on many of these cues has already been mentioned. I don't know what it is, but it is not maple.
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The core is not hardwood? That's amazing.

Dan, do you know anything about that? I know you spend a lot of time with cue makers there. Did you ever see them core with something other than hard wood?

Shafts not maple? I am amazed. Seriously. I mean...OK, maybe dime store cues.....but....wow......

I have three PI cues...got them new in 97. They are straight, the shafts are certainly maple. I have no idea if they are cored but I suspect they are. One of them has a butt that is a four piece radial splice with purpleheart between the splices.

.
 
EightballJunkie said:
Some of the makers of what are sometimes called souvenir cues -- you know the MOP & Abalone inlay clad cookie cutter cues -- will use coconut timber for the handles. Since the handle tenon extends through the butt-sleeve, it may appear on these cues like a core wood, but it's not. Most of the guys making these kind of cues wouldn't have equipment for full coring.
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Doc, Dan,

It is entirely possible that you are right about the coconut tenon. And yes, these cues have a lot of MOP and abalone inlays - very pretty on the outside. I certainly cannot match their inlays at this point in time.

As I said before, I'm not wanting to place all Phillipino cue makers into the same mold. I went back and looked at one of the previous shafts I worked on and the current one - I'm not the world's expert on maple, but I'm having trouble believing the top one is maple. I think the bottom one is - but it isn't great quality maple. You've got to guess that high quality maple is hard to get there.

And to an extent it doesn't matter - many of "our customers" are going to judge us against the pretty exteriors and low price of the Phillipino cues - One of the things I've learned to appreciate here is the quality of American cuebuilding from the inside out. Some customers recognize it too - others just bring me their cues for straightening, loose linen wraps, and other repairs - so I can't complain.

Onward through the fog!

Gary
 

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Ah yes...the "souvenir" cues. That's what I meant by "dime store cues".

I wouldn't be surprised by anything in their construction.

Obviously that top shaft isn't maple.


Lots of those kinds of cues around. The shame is that they tend to "identify" the PI cues for many people. When I talk of PI cues I certainly don't mean cues of that genre.
 
EightballJunkie said:
There are cue makers in the Philippines that take a lot of pride in not only the appearance but the quality of their cues. These cue makers have wood that's been seasoning for long periods, and various unfinished pieces adjusting. They're happy to tell you this one or that one has been hanging in the shop one year, two years, maybe longer. In short, they know what they're doing.

On the other hand, there are some that turn their wood very quickly, and as a result the wood can and probably will move. It doesn't have to be shipped out of the Philippines for it to happen either - it's just a matter of time. Local players there know who's cues stay straight and who's don't. Visit one of these shops and you probably won't see much wood or many cues around ...but there always seems to be one on the lathe :scratchhead:



I lived in Manila for two years without AC so believe me, it isn't that much hotter and it isn't that much more humid than parts of the U.S.

Anyway, I laugh sometimes reading the climate differences will do this and do that stuff. A few PI cue makers have reinforced this idea by using this excuse when a customer complains their cue warped, and some cue makers here are happy to agree to discourage from buying a cue made there ..so it works both ways, but by this rational I guess a customer in Alaska shouldn't buy a cue made in say Florida, Georgia or Alabama right?

..I don't think climate differences are the main issue.



EDIT: I promise you utilities are every bit as expensive there. For example run a 1 HP air conditioner there everyday for a month and watch the electric bill jump to over $100. Electricity in the Philippines is probably the most expensive in Asia.
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If you really think climate is not a big factor, Then don't decide to build cues or anything made of wood that needs to stay straight, IMO. Some may use improperly dried wood, which can and will compound the problems, but to say that climate doesn't play a big part, IMO, is a naive thought.
As an example, If the cue wood was kept for a couple years, but is still at a 14% moisture content and this is the lowest it can be due to local conditions, as they assemble it.....once it reaches the US, and say it goes to the midwest with higher temps, but a low humidity level, you don't believe it will have an adverse effect on the straightness of a cue? Seasoning of the wood means that it has been thru the seasons it has been exposed to. Seasoning cannot account for the conditions it will be subjected to, only the conditions it has been 'trained' in. If the service area is different than the build area, and the climates are very 180 degreeish apart, there is a very high chance of unwanted changes that can occur over time.
Sort of like an overseas production cue that says it is 20 ounces on the sticker, but when you actually weight it, it's more like 18.6 oz......
Dave
 
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