closed sandbagger vs. hustler thread
- Thread starter Goose1972
- Start date
League is league...let it go..enter in your local friday or sat. tournament..play for yourself,an no one else...stop passing judgement on others,really...either you under stand how to read the table..an play it out or you don't...no big deal if you can...there are thousands an thousands that can't...there is a major difference between a husler an a sandbagger..pool is a fickle lady..(smile)...we just have to fade a few things...its all good...you didn't loose your house..let it go....but hey..what do I know....hope you find what your looking for.
No, I think the e-toughguy posting and aggresive rudeness is what got it closed.
Goose1972
Banned
agreed, the rudness that many of you showed was uncalled for. :thumbup:
Goose1972
Banned
sorry couldn't sleep just wanted to make one last comment
quote from: banks
"I've seen a 3 break and run. He's also dogged balls in front of the pocket. That doesn't mean that he's a 5 or 6"
i've seen 7's break and run, who have dogged balls in front of pockets. which i think is the more common scenerio.
if a 3 can break and run, even once. Unless it was there second week in league, they should be moved up to a 4. if they return as a 3 they are hustling and should be beaten to a pulp. i'm not buying they had a lucky day on this point. threes should be lucky to put together a 3 ball string. anything else is suspect. i find it really hard to believe that you've never encountered sandbagging in the apa, perhaps it is a regional thing.
I've played with 4's and 5's who i've never seen break and run, over years of playing with them.
i'm not trying to get craziness started again, just wanted to get that off my shoulders.
I hope we can continue to co-exist peacefully in this billiards forum, where no one speaks of billiards.
quote from: banks
"I've seen a 3 break and run. He's also dogged balls in front of the pocket. That doesn't mean that he's a 5 or 6"
i've seen 7's break and run, who have dogged balls in front of pockets. which i think is the more common scenerio.
if a 3 can break and run, even once. Unless it was there second week in league, they should be moved up to a 4. if they return as a 3 they are hustling and should be beaten to a pulp. i'm not buying they had a lucky day on this point. threes should be lucky to put together a 3 ball string. anything else is suspect. i find it really hard to believe that you've never encountered sandbagging in the apa, perhaps it is a regional thing.
I've played with 4's and 5's who i've never seen break and run, over years of playing with them.
i'm not trying to get craziness started again, just wanted to get that off my shoulders.
I hope we can continue to co-exist peacefully in this billiards forum, where no one speaks of billiards.
???
I think in your original post (the closed thread) you were possibly asking several questions, but it wasn't clear as your keyboard apparently has no question mark button.
But to the point...I think you may be confusing hustlers with gamblers, - two different animals.
My opinion is based on playing for 57 years including 72 seasons of league play. I've played in NPBA, MPA, VNEA, BCA, APA and ACS leagues. I've played gamblers, hustlers and world champions. I have never seen people "glorify" hustlers. We do however, glorify successful gamblers and tournament players. Personally, my heroes in pool are guys like Efren who will play anyone, win a lot, AND smile when they lose...
Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor
I think in your original post (the closed thread) you were possibly asking several questions, but it wasn't clear as your keyboard apparently has no question mark button.
But to the point...I think you may be confusing hustlers with gamblers, - two different animals.
My opinion is based on playing for 57 years including 72 seasons of league play. I've played in NPBA, MPA, VNEA, BCA, APA and ACS leagues. I've played gamblers, hustlers and world champions. I have never seen people "glorify" hustlers. We do however, glorify successful gamblers and tournament players. Personally, my heroes in pool are guys like Efren who will play anyone, win a lot, AND smile when they lose...
Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor
Well, Goose, ya hafta admit ya lost it a little....
..you got a good sense of humor...use it more often.
And I've seen the term 'sandbagger', like 'troll' and 'bully', over-used
greatly. Pool is not like chess...you can go to the well and play over
your head...or sometimes you get lucky enough to get a whole bunch
of shots that you understand.
I did a lot of handi-cap tournaments in the 80's.....when a high handi-cap
would finally win one, 'sandbagger' would be heard from the better players.
Next time the 'sandbagger' would show up, I would announce to the room
that he was back and was playing at the same level.
I would say "This person has probably never been staked in his life.....
...who wants to put him in?"
I would hear crickets
Goose:
I think the problem is that the topic of APA and skill-levels / handicaps has been beaten to a pulp on these forums over the years. I know *you* feel you need to post about it, but your "gripe" with skill-levels and handicapping is not new. In fact, falls right in with the "beaten to a pulp" aspect. I know you've been a member here since only March of this year, but anyone with longevity here can tell you this.
APA threads are almost as bad as aiming threads when it comes to them being "hard-wired" to dip their wing and tailspin into the ground.
-Sean
I think the problem is that the topic of APA and skill-levels / handicaps has been beaten to a pulp on these forums over the years. I know *you* feel you need to post about it, but your "gripe" with skill-levels and handicapping is not new. In fact, falls right in with the "beaten to a pulp" aspect. I know you've been a member here since only March of this year, but anyone with longevity here can tell you this.
APA threads are almost as bad as aiming threads when it comes to them being "hard-wired" to dip their wing and tailspin into the ground.
-Sean
I play all over the map...good days-bad days thing. Part of this I attribute to being diabetic. Anyway, it may appear that I'm sandbagging when I'm not...just having a bad day. I don't play league...can't guarantee that
I can show every week, so don't want to disappoint people.
I can show every week, so don't want to disappoint people.
Goose1972
Banned
thank you all for your insight,
i guess we can all agree that sandbagging is similar to hustling in that both are based on the deception of ability to play in order to gain an advantage on the opponent. in my opinion, the term con artists, can also be used for either here.
unfortunately some time ago the dark side entered into and tainted an otherwise beautiful game, the hustle and con has become as big as the game itself, and a part that is accepted in any level of play. so many fish, so many sizes. shitty player ranked f-, can now out hustle and con shitty player d+ to get that coveted spot in the tournament. people conning to win more money, or to move through a tournament is an accepptable style of play. It's seems the classic game of pool I group up playing has turned into a hybrid game, which has been accepted in todays society and on this website, con pool, is the game of pool where the playes are not playing to finish the balls as fast as possible as was meant to be.
i grew up for years playing with friends, the objective was always to finish the game the fastest. when i watch the pros, seems like their objective is the same. the pure game itself. the game i love to play and watch.
i guess i just don't love to play or watch con pool. and the supporters of con pool make me sick. too few people in this dark game have morals, common courtesy or show any proper sportmanship. unfortunately it's a game i love playing. not to the level of most of you pool masters, hustlers, sandbaggers, and cheats. but who knows like one poster says maybe if i put in more effort i'll turn into a greedy heartless son of a ***** too.
one poster recently mentioned that this has been discussed long before i got here. i'm glad to hear that, honestly, because i knew i couldn't be the only one. who thought the idea of man shitting on man was accepatable.
but, i am new here, and i have a voice, im not old enough to have owned a slave, people used to own slaves, it was normal once. you want to make someone your bi@tch, (AS SOMEONE SAID HERE BEFORE) don't try and make me your Bi@tch, im not ytour bi@tch , bi@tch.
enjoy your evenings, im gonna go and play a game of pool now.
i guess we can all agree that sandbagging is similar to hustling in that both are based on the deception of ability to play in order to gain an advantage on the opponent. in my opinion, the term con artists, can also be used for either here.
unfortunately some time ago the dark side entered into and tainted an otherwise beautiful game, the hustle and con has become as big as the game itself, and a part that is accepted in any level of play. so many fish, so many sizes. shitty player ranked f-, can now out hustle and con shitty player d+ to get that coveted spot in the tournament. people conning to win more money, or to move through a tournament is an accepptable style of play. It's seems the classic game of pool I group up playing has turned into a hybrid game, which has been accepted in todays society and on this website, con pool, is the game of pool where the playes are not playing to finish the balls as fast as possible as was meant to be.
i grew up for years playing with friends, the objective was always to finish the game the fastest. when i watch the pros, seems like their objective is the same. the pure game itself. the game i love to play and watch.
i guess i just don't love to play or watch con pool. and the supporters of con pool make me sick. too few people in this dark game have morals, common courtesy or show any proper sportmanship. unfortunately it's a game i love playing. not to the level of most of you pool masters, hustlers, sandbaggers, and cheats. but who knows like one poster says maybe if i put in more effort i'll turn into a greedy heartless son of a ***** too.
one poster recently mentioned that this has been discussed long before i got here. i'm glad to hear that, honestly, because i knew i couldn't be the only one. who thought the idea of man shitting on man was accepatable.
but, i am new here, and i have a voice, im not old enough to have owned a slave, people used to own slaves, it was normal once. you want to make someone your bi@tch, (AS SOMEONE SAID HERE BEFORE) don't try and make me your Bi@tch, im not ytour bi@tch , bi@tch.
enjoy your evenings, im gonna go and play a game of pool now.
In bowling league this past season, I rolled a 636 series on a 148 average (I know, I know, I suck at bowling too!). If you do not want to do the math, that is averaging 212 for three games, or putting it another way, 64 pins per game OVER my average. Do you think I am a "sandbagger"? I hope not because nobody in my league thinks of me as one. I had a great night. I received a bunch of congratulations from fellow league players that night. No animosity, no accusations.
I've seen the same thing happen in a pool match. Many times. The only difference is, most of the times I saw it happen in pool, there was usually some grumbling coming from someone in view of the match (if not from the actual opponent) that the player having the great night was shooting over their skill level, or just flat out used the accusatory "s" word.
Now, I know that there IS sandbagging going on in handicapped league/tournament play (we've all seen it), but it is not always the case when someone is only having a great match at the time. You just gotta learn how to fade it when it happens against you, whether it WAS actual sandbagging, or just a case of someone having that once-in-a-while great match (or two).
We can't win 'em all.
FTR, I once saw an APA SL2 (his 9-ball skill level) run a table after a dry break by his opponent, then precede to break-n-run the next rack in a game of 8-ball. This happened after the nights matches were over and he was playing his team captain for funsies. This was not 45 minutes after that same SL2 beat our SL2 (an older woman who can rarely make three balls in a row) by a 20-0 score by making bank shots, combos, and threw in a carom shot for good measure all the while getting position on his next balls by going 2 and 3 rails for shape at times. We reported this to the league operator who moved him up to a SL3 the next week (whoopity-doo
). Was he a sandbagger? I believe so. I have also witnessed a woman SL2 (8-ball) run a table out against me after a dry break and beat me in the match 2-1 (I had to reach 5). I knew this woman personally and I can tell you she was no sandbagger. She won her first game in that match because I made an early 8. She never, ever came close to running that many balls in a row again as long as I saw her play. Once, my wife as a SL3 in 8-ball ran a table after her opponents dry break. Then this past 9-ball session, playing as a SL3 she got her first break-n-run patch. I can guarantee you she's an honest SL3. What's my point? It happens. Just congratulate it and move on.
Maniac
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Deceit in a poker game is expected....and you can still be an honorable
man AND play good poker.
Gambling and hustling at pool can fall within these guide lines...there is
a lot of good game-makers you can still leave your bankroll or your kids
with.
At poker and pool there are also cheaters...which should not be a reflection on the good guys.
People that hustle pool leagues or handicap tournaments...I have trouble
giving serious thought to.....I can't get past the 'mickey mouseness' of it
pt..<..coining new words daily
Being deceitful at gambling, hustling or league play has very little to do with whether you can trust someone with your bankroll or your kids imo.
I think most people think of gambling, hustling and league play as a finite world or which they go in and out of and are not actually an example of their honor or decency. Like you said, in poker it is expected. Why should it not be expected in pool?
You have two different ways of looking at it.
If I go up to some random people in a bar and lay down to get their money I`m considered a (sandbagger/hustler) and I`m looked down on like a scum bag correct?
If I play league (which I don`t and never will)and laydown I`m the same guy as above.
If i go to a pool tournament and gamble with other gamblers and lay down a line to get their money then I`m doing whats expected and anyone that gambles know this.Every gambler is going to try and get the best of a game (despite what they might say).
I personally always gamble with other gamblers.I have never tried to sucker some random person in.
Now if I hustle them or they hustle me we both know it`s a risk we are taking.
I recently had a drunk guy at a poolroom in gainesville try to get me to play him.He kept on me for over and hour.I talked to the owner and he said he is a regular and always has a big tab at the end of the night.
I finally gave in and played the guy and beat him very easily out of $50 and he paid me and quit.I took the $50 and went up to the bar and paid it on his tab.The only reason I played him was to get him to shutup and leave me alone because he was anoying.
SO you see you can`t join everyone that does a little hustle in the same group.
If I go up to some random people in a bar and lay down to get their money I`m considered a (sandbagger/hustler) and I`m looked down on like a scum bag correct?
If I play league (which I don`t and never will)and laydown I`m the same guy as above.
If i go to a pool tournament and gamble with other gamblers and lay down a line to get their money then I`m doing whats expected and anyone that gambles know this.Every gambler is going to try and get the best of a game (despite what they might say).
I personally always gamble with other gamblers.I have never tried to sucker some random person in.
Now if I hustle them or they hustle me we both know it`s a risk we are taking.
I recently had a drunk guy at a poolroom in gainesville try to get me to play him.He kept on me for over and hour.I talked to the owner and he said he is a regular and always has a big tab at the end of the night.
I finally gave in and played the guy and beat him very easily out of $50 and he paid me and quit.I took the $50 and went up to the bar and paid it on his tab.The only reason I played him was to get him to shutup and leave me alone because he was anoying.
SO you see you can`t join everyone that does a little hustle in the same group.
Good thread, foxcues. I agree that gamblers should do all their gambling against OTHER gamblers and NOT seek out some poor, miserable sap to "rob" so-to-speak. But, what you did to that loudmouth in Gainesville was not only proper, it showed a lot of class by you (a gambler that would get absolutely NO respect from some people) to have put the winnings down on your opponents tab.
You're the kind of gambler that gets MY respect!!!
Maniac
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Thank you for your respect :smile: I`m sure there are many more that would do the same but unfortunately there are some people that can only see one side of a hustle.I hope oneday they will open their eyes and then not break our thumbs
You sound confused. You think the sandbagger's are at fault.. really.The problem lies else where and hustling well all i gotta say don't play. :grin:
Sandbagging and hustling shouldn't be in the same sentence.Why because they are two different individuals.Also when someone is hustling aren't both guys thinking they got the best of it?Well .... at first anyways.
Hope things get better for you.
And just like you i dont care for the sandbagging but i know why they do it.The easiest way to solve the problem do away with all handicaps.But that will never happen.