Meucci: Throw Vs Deflection

TheThaiger

TheThaiger

Banned
I'm thinking about buying a Meucci with a red dot shaft. I've never played with one before, so would be buying blind. From what I can gather, Meucci's are rather unusual cues, ones you either love or hate.

I've seen claims that they reduce throw. Is that true? If so, how?

How much do they deflect (with a red dot)?

Also, the one I'm thinking of buying was made in the mid 1990s - what is the quality likely to be?
 
My Meucci has less deflection than my Schon.
I happen to like Meucci's. I had many in my time. Still have two.
Just check it out and make sure it's fit and finish is good.
They do hit different! You may come to like them too! :)
The shafts are kind of whippy. I think that is why it cuts down on the throw.
The joint material is a fiber that makes it seem to hit softer as well.
They may hit soft, but it is still solid. imo.
 
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Mid 90s and earlier is a good cue generally.

Red dots, while lower in deflection than many others of its time, really had no modern deflection technology. The red dot was mearly used for maintaining consistency.
 
the red dot is the better of the 2 shaft options. they do hit really whippy but i think that the red dot shaft is still playable. you gotta know that if it's not your cup of tea their resale value doesn't hold very well and you might have to take a loss to sell the cue and reenvest in something else
 
I've seen some pretty decent deals for Meucci Originals on eBay lately. If you catch one at the right price in good shape, you'll have a nice cue. Send it to Mike Erwin for a refinish and it will turn heads.

The new Meucci's, not so much... :cool:
 
TheThaiger said:
I'm thinking about buying a Meucci with a red dot shaft. I've never played with one before, so would be buying blind. From what I can gather, Meucci's are rather unusual cues, ones you either love or hate.

I've seen claims that they reduce throw. Is that true? If so, how?

How much do they deflect (with a red dot)?

Also, the one I'm thinking of buying was made in the mid 1990s - what is the quality likely to be?
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Sorry I missed your question in there.

If your asking about CB deflection from off center hits, english, Meuccis' take on it at the time was to use thin ferrules, small diameter (for its time) tips with long parallel tapers. "Pro taper". He was very concerned about radial consistancy as such was born the 'red dot' and shafts to follow.

In it's day it was described as wippy when compared to the standard 13mm plus sized, conical or relatively straight tapers considered more 'standard' then. But IMO ,people who call them that today have probably not hit with one. IMO, they are not at all wippy compared to todays LD shafts. I mean what do you think would be more wippy, a 12.25mm shaft or smaller with a 'pro taper' and hollowed out for half of it length or the same shaft left at 12.75 and made of solid wood? It's like comparing a tube to a solid pipe. I think the Preds and OBs I have are more 'wippy' feeling to me than my old Meucci shafts but thats me. The only difference is being hollow they have a different sound, more of a thunk which may 'sound' more firm if you let your ears fool you.

Also IMO, the black dots were better shafts. MOre consistant and less deflection and a very sold feeling hit. Obviously the construction method by todays standards have lead to many wild assumptions about them but they were a very good shaft IMO and I could easily play one today.
 
Meucci cues have always been junk, even the Originals. The early ones hold their value because there aren't many left that haven't blown up. Thumbs down for plastic cues.
 
Mitchxout said:
Meucci cues have always been junk, even the Originals. The early ones hold their value because there aren't many left that haven't blown up. Thumbs down for plastic cues.
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To each their own, I guess. But that's not been my experience. I just sold a Meucci Original that had been refinished and looked like new. I put a Moori III on it and it hit great. Absolutely straight and solid.

Didn't really want to sell it but I made a nice profit.

Recently repaired a fairly new Meucci Cameo. Customer brought it in because it didn't hit solid and made a strange sound on contacting the cue ball. I started twisting the ferrule by hand and the ferrule slipped off the tenon. They had forgot to glue the ferrule at the factory. Nice QC... :rolleyes:
 
TheThaiger said:
I'm thinking about buying a Meucci with a red dot shaft. I've never played with one before, so would be buying blind. From what I can gather, Meucci's are rather unusual cues, ones you either love or hate.

I've seen claims that they reduce throw. Is that true? If so, how?

How much do they deflect (with a red dot)?

Also, the one I'm thinking of buying was made in the mid 1990s - what is the quality likely to be?
Click to expand...

I have a red dot, hits ok but nothing special. Doesnt deflect any less than normal. I dont see how any cue could reduce throw, whether by spin or contact(or both).
 
Tim:

As others have said, the Red Dot shaft is not an LD shaft. Rather, it's a plain solid maple shaft, that has been measured and test hit at the factory to find out that orientation of the shaft where left spin and right spin deflected equally (or as close to equal as possible). Then, a red dot was painted on the top to let you know that orientation of the shaft -- red dot on top -- would give you the orientation of the shaft where the left and right deflection were exactly (or as close to exactly) equal.

In other words, the Red Dot shaft -- if you orient it red dot on top -- is a "radially-consistent" shaft -- probably the first radially-consistent product of its kind.

Later, the Black Dot shaft came out, which was Meucci's [then] answer to LD technology. This is where the Red Dot and the Black Dot differ -- the Red Dot, as you know, is a plain solid maple shaft that was merely tested and marked; the Black Dot is a full-blown laminated shaft. The Black Dot uses horizontal laminations vs. the usual radial pie-cut laminations as in e.g. Predator. However, another difference between the Red Dot and Black Dot is that, unlike the Red Dot shaft, the orientation of the dot on the Black Dot shaft doesn't matter. Some Meucci haters refer to the Black Dot as a "plywood" shaft, because its construction resembles plywood -- with flat layers glued one on top of each other. But I'll be honest, the last time I played with a Black Dot, I actually liked it, and that's saying a lot, because I'm not a fan of LD shafts.

I have a Meucci model 97-11 that I bought dirt-cheap at pool hall because it had a significant warp or bend in the handle/grip area. I shipped it off to Ryan Theewen (cue repair artisan of Muellers), and what he did with it is nothing short of head-spinning. He cut the handle/grip area out of the cue, hollowed-out the forearm, and reconstructed the cue onto a new properly-cured solid one-piece maple core. Rewrapped and refinished it, and the cue is better than new. I have a standard solid maple shaft on it -- nothing special. The hit is amazing, and It's one of my favorites.

Hope this is helpful,
-Sean
 
Throw (as I know it) is a factor of the cue ball.
Deflection is the shaft.

randyg
 
Something that I’ve always wondered about regarding the Meucci black dot and red dot cues:

Doesn’t the Meucci pre-shot process of rotating the cue to a specific upside point (to visually assure the axial “sweet spot” positioning) logically result in unnaturally specific, compressed areas of the tip? (Compared to both laminated and all non-laminated cues that are simply randomly rotated when beginning each pre-shot routine -- which necessarily results in the normal, relatively *uniform* overall tip wear most non-Meucci players experience.)

It would seem that newly-installed tips on a cue requiring an upside dot positioning would quickly lose their accurately rounded geometry, especially so if the tips aren’t in the top ranges of hardness to begin with.

But I’ve never played with Meucci’s featuring the dot-viewing system so it may be that the act of playing all over the cue ball for a variety of blended englishes ensures relatively uniform wear (except in the obvious case of draw shots continually giving extra compression to the same small upwardly-positioned area of the tip).

Just always wondered and was too timid to ask Meucci himself at the Billiards Expositions when I’ve walked by his booth years ago. (I’ve seen how “enthusiastically” he compares the features of his cues to those of other cue-making companies in-person.)

Arnaldo
 
arnaldo said:
Something that I’ve always wondered about regarding the Meucci black dot and red dot cues:

Doesn’t the Meucci pre-shot process of rotating the cue to a specific upside point (to visually assure the axial “sweet spot” positioning) logically result in unnaturally specific, compressed areas of the tip? (Compared to both laminated and all non-laminated cues that are simply randomly rotated when beginning each pre-shot routine -- which necessarily results in the normal, relatively *uniform* overall tip wear most non-Meucci players experience.)

It would seem that newly-installed tips on a cue requiring an upside dot positioning would quickly lose their accurately rounded geometry, especially so if the tips aren’t in the top ranges of hardness to begin with.

But I’ve never played with Meucci’s featuring the dot-viewing system so it may be that the act of playing all over the cue ball for a variety of blended englishes ensures relatively uniform wear (except in the obvious case of draw shots continually giving extra compression to the same small upwardly-positioned area of the tip).

Just always wondered and was too timid to ask Meucci himself at the Billiards Expositions when I’ve walked by his booth years ago. (I’ve seen how “enthusiastically” he compares the features of his cues to those of other cue-making companies in-person.)

Arnaldo
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Arnaldo:

This is exactly the difference in opinion between snooker and pool players. As you know from pool, it's desirable to wear the tip uniformly around the edges. In snooker, because the cue is oriented the same way each time (i.e. an Ash cue is oriented "chevrons up" -- the ash wood grain's chevrons facing up), and also due to orienting the chamfer or bevel-/chisel-face cut on the butt to be facing upwards in the palm. The answer there is that they *want* the tip to wear according to the player's shooting style -- compression spots intact.

It's just a difference in opinion. Honestly, I don't think it matters, as long as you have good tip maintenance skills. Which, I think is a dying art due to everyone buying these laminated tips that, more often, are requiring that you take the cue to a skilled repairman for anything but the most basic shaping and scuffing jobs. Folks are losing their ability to completely maintain their cue's tip -- including removal and reinstallation.

-Sean
 
arnaldo said:
Something that I’ve always wondered about regarding the Meucci black dot and red dot cues:

Doesn’t the Meucci pre-shot process of rotating the cue to a specific upside point (to visually assure the axial “sweet spot” positioning) logically result in unnaturally specific, compressed areas of the tip? (Compared to both laminated and all non-laminated cues that are simply randomly rotated when beginning each pre-shot routine -- which necessarily results in the normal, relatively *uniform* overall tip wear most non-Meucci players experience.)

It would seem that newly-installed tips on a cue requiring an upside dot positioning would quickly lose their accurately rounded geometry, especially so if the tips aren’t in the top ranges of hardness to begin with.

But I’ve never played with Meucci’s featuring the dot-viewing system so it may be that the act of playing all over the cue ball for a variety of blended englishes ensures relatively uniform wear (except in the obvious case of draw shots continually giving extra compression to the same small upwardly-positioned area of the tip).
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IMO no. Perhaps if you only used a very limited number of very specific points of English I guess. But most people use an endless amount of variations not to mention the number of people who can't hit the same spot twice anyway. :)

As to the dot placement question, as mentioned above this is not at all uncommon in cue sports. Even here, I can remember going way back many big name players marked their shafts or ferrules with a "top" mark. I havent played with a marked shaft in years but I still rotate my cues to the same spot every shot. It's not anything I conscientiously do. Part of my routine where a grab the handle prior to lining up the shot includes putting a certain inlay (that I recognize) on top. Its old skool I know but old habits die hard. ;)
 
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TheThaiger said:
I'm thinking about buying a Meucci with a red dot shaft.

...

I've seen claims that they reduce throw. Is that true? If so, how?
Click to expand...
As Randy said, throw is a result of the CB/OB collision, so the stick doesn't affect it directly.

How much do they deflect (with a red dot)?
Click to expand...
Depends what you mean by "deflect".

If you mean how flexible is the shaft, I don't personally know (although I had a Meucci 20 years ago that was pretty whippy).

If you mean cue ball deflection (squirt), I don't think there's anything in their construction that would make them low-squirt, so they probably deflect the cue ball about the same as any other cue with a similar sized tip.

pj
chgo
 
I have seen the inside of a few Meucci's over the years. Not many, maybe only 3 or 4, as they were already out of favor in my area when I got into cue repair.

They do have construction techniques to limit squirt. The ferrules are lighter weight than most of the composite ferrules today that have some sort of fiber in them. The wall of the ferrule is significantly thinner than ferrules on most other shafts. The ferrule slips over the tenon with a slip fit.

On their more recent shafts, the tenon design is tapered like the front of a #2 pencil, yet the internal walls of the ferrule remain parallel. This creates an intentional gap and subsequent void between the tenon and the ferrule.

Both of these designs make the front end mass of a Meucci shaft less than conventional shafts.

Its been at least 5 years since I last saw the inside of a Meucci, so I don't remember which was on the red dot, or black dot, or perhaps the change was made some other time. Maybe a cue repair man with more Meucci experience can add information.
 
poolplayer2093 said:
the red dot is the better of the 2 shaft options. they do hit really whippy but i think that the red dot shaft is still playable. you gotta know that if it's not your cup of tea their resale value doesn't hold very well and you might have to take a loss to sell the cue and reenvest in something else
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Good advice here, pay no more than $200 for it. Better to get a used Predator sp for $200-$250.
 
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