Do you think a cue ball will swerve more with (1) High right , (2) Low right or (3) Center right? Why?
Swerve question
- Thread starter Tennesseejoe
- Start date
Granted, but are we assuming the same cue elevation for each of the 3 shots? If so, I don't know the answer. It seems that a related question is whether it is possible to get more side spin with a center ball hit versus a high or low hit? You can hit further from the center since the ball is widest in it's middle, but does that actually translate into more spin? If so, then I might lean toward the center ball hit.
Aaron
I think it depends heavily on the vertical (jacked up) angle of the cue. For a nearly level cue I'd say low-high-center (most-to-least).
pj
chgo
IMO:
#1 Low. Off axis spin , most overall reduction in speed down the line.
#2 High. Off axis spin
#3 Center. If 'truly' center may even be possible to spin the CB on the correct axis that it 'may' not even swerve.
#1 Low. Off axis spin , most overall reduction in speed down the line.
#2 High. Off axis spin
#3 Center. If 'truly' center may even be possible to spin the CB on the correct axis that it 'may' not even swerve.
The more you raise the butt end of the cue the more effective a low right (or left) english will be. So my answer would have to be low right.
The reason is that when you add draw spin to a left or right masse you increase the amount of friction that allows the cue ball to grab the cloth and change direction.
The reason is that when you add draw spin to a left or right masse you increase the amount of friction that allows the cue ball to grab the cloth and change direction.
I can answer this question for you.
Its a matter of which one swerves sooner, and not more.
Assuming a zero cue elevation angle in reference to the impact point in all three situations, you will get the quicker swerve with high right/left.
With top spin, you are hitting the top of the ball. Some of the lateral force pushes the ball forward, some of the lateral force is translated into rotational momentum, and some of the lateral force pushes the ball down into the table/cloth, increasing the friction. Any additional side spin is going to be "jammed" into the cloth, the cloth will grab it quickly, and the cue ball will immediately swerve into the direction of the spin.
With bottom spin, you are not adding any additional force "down" onto the ball (hitting southern equator of a sphere, not the northern). The friction is nominal, so the cloth will grab the spin later on.
Try it for yourself.
I use (or try to) successfully use top side spin off of the rail when I can. I KNOW it is going to swerve immediately, so I usually aim a full pocket to the left or right. Its a useful trick when you need it.
Its a matter of which one swerves sooner, and not more.
Assuming a zero cue elevation angle in reference to the impact point in all three situations, you will get the quicker swerve with high right/left.
With top spin, you are hitting the top of the ball. Some of the lateral force pushes the ball forward, some of the lateral force is translated into rotational momentum, and some of the lateral force pushes the ball down into the table/cloth, increasing the friction. Any additional side spin is going to be "jammed" into the cloth, the cloth will grab it quickly, and the cue ball will immediately swerve into the direction of the spin.
With bottom spin, you are not adding any additional force "down" onto the ball (hitting southern equator of a sphere, not the northern). The friction is nominal, so the cloth will grab the spin later on.
Try it for yourself.
I use (or try to) successfully use top side spin off of the rail when I can. I KNOW it is going to swerve immediately, so I usually aim a full pocket to the left or right. Its a useful trick when you need it.
Nah.
With low you have 2 forces contributing to the swerve or masse.
With top your not actually adding any topspin so its still just side spin.
With low you have 2 forces contributing to the swerve or masse.
With top your not actually adding any topspin so its still just side spin.
I suppose given the same elevation and speed, low should be more because of the standard Coriolis effect. The final force vector is based on the line connecting the base of the cueball and the point of the cloth where the Cuestick angle points to on the cloth. High points to a spot farther forward than low.
Freddie <~~~ but always screws up the follow with english off the rail
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Low right. Due to the rails, you won't have a perfectly level cue so there is at least some minor amount of downward force being applied. This will amplify the swerve. I would think high right would be the least as the forward roll would tend to offset the spin.
The interesting thing is that given the same elevation and speed, top will swerve sooner, but low will swerve more. Again, given the same elevation and speed.
With zero elevation, there should be no swerve. With upward elevation, swerve is opposite ( right English produces left swerve).
Freddie <~~~ would point to a site for more information, but I'll defer to the owner
I have come to believe that High-right or High-left will swerve faster than Low-left or Low-right, meaning that the cue ball will start to swerve almost immediately after leaving the cue tip, when applying High-Left or High-right, whereas when using Low-left or Low-right, it seems that the swerve occurs "later" rather than "sooner". I think when we shoot with Low-left or Low-right, we may generally be moving the cue stick at a faster speed than when we shoot High-left or High-right and that may intially reduce the friction with the cloth so that the swerve happens later when applying LL or LR.
The funny thing is, when I am trying to swerve the cue ball around an impeding ball, I usually use Low-left or Low-right.
I thought the question was which will swerve more not which would swerve soonest. I think the reason high right would swerve sooner is that you get some small amount of sliding going on with the low right thereby delaying the swerve. Obviously this doesn't occur with high right or center right.
Because in my theory, that HL & HR swerve sooner than LL or LR, some might think that HL & HR swerves more and they are probably correct but only as far as initial myopic observation is concerned.
The truth is the amount of swerve depends a lot more on the amount of the downward stroke and acceleration of that downward stroke than anything else.
So Joey, if I'm reading that right, you whole heartedly agree with me, right? LOL Now I'm probably going to waste at least a 1/2 hour tonight playing with this to see if I can figure out what is reality.
Yes, I think we are on the same page. Effective swerve is relative to the shot. I see people shooting slow speed HR & HL "close" shots (using inside spin) and hitting the object ball too full because they don't know that the HR & HL swerves sooner than LR & LL; but it will be interesting to hear of your 1/2 hour "investment" of time. I'm always open to learning something that will improve my game. Effectively improving my game is much more important to me than proving I am right about anything. My ego is very small when it comes to improving my game.
If you really want to drive yourself crazy not only practice the HR, HL & LR, LL but change the speed of the cue ball and the distances between the object ball and cue ball. :grin: Have fun.
They're effectively the same thing. Swerving sooner means swerving farther.
pj
chgo
Not if you're comparing swerve with follow to swerve from draw. If the stick is elevated to the same angle, the swerve angle will be larger with draw (by the Coriolis masse principle) but the curve will be over a much wider extent than with follow. The ball will swerve until it is rolling smoothly on the cloth and that happens sooner with follow. The result is that the path of the ball with follow and the ball with draw will cross. For short distances the follow appears to have more swerve while for long distances the draw appears to have more swerve.
Disagree.
The shot that induces the most total spin will swerve 'more'.
I agree high english may start the swerve sooner but but it doesnt mean it will create a bigger arc. It just means it will likely roll out of spin sooner.
IMO low English English would create a bigger arc overall as it will have masse effect in addition to relatively the same amount of 'swerve' as the high english shot.
Or what Bob said a millisecond before me. 