Break Speed DISCUSSION

JoeyA

JoeyA

Efren's Mini-Tourn BACKER
Silver Member
To start things off I will offer some background information on my break, where I am at right now and where I hope to go. Also, I want to lay the cards out there and search through the posts to find nuggets to help with my break.

For the record, I have NEVER worked on my break speed. Mostly I play one pocket, so the rotation games just weren't a big part of my game.

It was a major shock to me when my break speed was clocked by Doc Hutch and his Iphone app. I always assumed that I broke around 20-21 mph. :lol:

When the app read 15 & 16 mph, I was like, WTH? We then had all kinds of guys, some of them out of shape so bad, you would have thought they couldn't break 18 if their life depended on it. It was really kind of an awakening for me. I always thought I had a fairly solid break. In 9 ball on a bar table, with a Magic Rack, I can do a little damage. :wink: In the pool room where I play, balls get switched around and they are hard to rack tight, so breaking results are often inconsistent.

If you were to categorize my break style, it would be called a stroke break with speed, meaning that I break, mostly with using my forearm to account for my speed. I can squat the rack pretty well doing that but like I said, at 15 & 16 MPH with different sized balls and tight pocket Diamond tables, it doesn't always produce if you know what I mean.

Anyway DocHutch and I decided to try out the BreakRak and purchased the "radar" accessory to go with it. The radar unit resets itself, comes with a shield that protects it from being hit by a flying cue ball and is a convenient accessory. After getting the installation process down pat and tweaking the BreakRak, I got down to the botton line and that my break speed is VERY SLOW. It didn't take me long to figure out that my break speed wasn't going to change radically and certainly not overnight. However, I quickly came to realize that I could regularly break at 17-18 mph after using the BreakRak for an hour. I didn't want to work out too severely with break speed and risk an injury so I stopped and let some of the other guys hit the break. Every single one of them could not beat me at ANY game but some of them hit 22-23 mph without flying off the table and they used, MY BREAK CUE. It was a sobering experience to say the least.

I did figure out that some body movement is definitely a help in increasing break speed. Being 20-40 years old helps with break speed, especially if you have fast-twitch muscles. Most of the guys who can easily break over 20 mph are surprisingly strong. I think muscle strength, fast twitch muscles and technique are all important in break speed.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think break speed is more important than controlling whitey and having a shot on the lowest numbered ball on the table. I am simply on a quest to increase my controlled break speed. I plan on a weekly training schedule with the break rack to see how that goes and will post the results as they occur.

At 17-18 mph, I noticed a lot more 9 ball activity on the break and that's a very small increase in speed. I did clock myself at hitting 20.48 mph but not that often. I hit more 19 mph than 20 and as I said 17-18 seemed to be my average. Hopefully, I can increase my speed over time without pulling a muscle or causing a rotator cuff injury. :grin: Prior to having my break speed clocked, if someone had wanted to be me that I didn't hit regurlarly at 20 mph, they would have easily gotten a bet from me.

If any of you have some tips or results that you would like to share, please do so. This thread may go on for a while. I don't plan on becoming a 30 mph breaker like Dechaine or Bryant but I will increase my break speed from where it is. I know some of you will probably say that it isn't a big stretch but the truth is that I have watched a lot of videos and thought that I was already doing a lot of what was suggested in the break videos as well as the info on this forum.

So if you've got something to share, get after it.
Thanks,
 
Years ago I was watching woman's pool on TV and I noticed some of them shifted their body weight from back to front on the snap. This got me thinking and I realized that it is a similar idea to batting in baseball.

After a few sessions of practice I got it down. I have no idea how much faster my breaks are, but it sure does get the balls moving a lot more.

I don't know if you are doing anything similar, but it sure is easier on my arm then when I used to just use the power in my arm to break.
 
In watching the pros, I am struck at how precisely they can hit the cue ball. When they are able to know that they will hit point A on the cue ball and point B on the object ball, this confidence precision has to give them access to some power they would not have otherwise.

I guess what I am trying to say is, I think as players improve in their skill level, speed on the break may also improve naturally. I also think you can improve the break independent of your entire game...clearly.

That being said, my experience almost mirrors yours, except I am 33. I easily break at 19.5 with control, but struggle to go higher in mph. I would have thought I broke them at 23 mph all day long, and in a break contest a fifteen-year-old-fast-food-junkie drilled me breaking at 25 mph and 26 mph like it was nothing.

I have tried to adapt a Shane technique. Using this technique (or something similar), I have hit the balls around 21 mph, with really good action. However, I am not consistent in hitting the one ball solid or keeping the cue ball on the table. When I hit it bad, I sometimes fall to 16 or 17 mph.

Many good breakers employ some kind of torso movement upward. I think this is likely to be a requirement of someone who is going to break the balls like a pro. When I adopted this, I immediately had breaks exceeding 20 mph; they are just not consistent.

I think if you stick with this break rack, it will make a difference. It helped Shane!

kollegedave
 
When breaking with power very little of the power should come from your arm. Starting from your legs each muscle should tense in order up through your core and propel your body towards the cueball. There is no way you can generate that kind of kinetic power using your arm alone.

When you next go practice breaking try a few things:

1) Try breaking from the rail using a rail bridge.

2) After you take your warm up strokes make sure your last stroke back is very slow and deliberate. Aim low on the cueball and begin to pull your body away from the table as you partially stand up. On your forward acceleration through the final stroke start the momentum with your legs and push your body through the shot. Remember that your arm does very little of the work and by the time the kinetic force gets there you are just guiding the cue through the ball.

3) Make sure you are hitting the object ball as full as possible. Each degree off of the center the cueball is on the object ball you lose power.

Think about when you cut a shot- the cueball travels farther after hitting the object ball because it retains more of the speed it takes going into the hit. The same principle applies when breaking.

(As a side note- I see this particular scenario happen over and over again- A beginner or even a moderate to good player tend to cut balls with too much power because they dont compensate the speed according to the fact that they are not hitting the object ball in the center. Anytime you hit an object ball off center the cueball carries more speed then it would have had you hit it directly in the center. So when you cut a ball way more often times than not people find themselves way down table and in poor position. A problem can arise if you are good enough at speed to tell if you hit the cueball soft enough to keep position that the object ball will not have enough speed to go into the pocket.

What usually happens when this is the case is people are not confident enough in themselves to use two rails to get position and hit harder but once you master that technique you will often see many more patterns in racks than you were able to see before. /endrant)

When you hit the object ball as full as possible the most force gets translated into the rack.

4) Make sure you follow through with your cue after hitting the cueball. For me by the time my follow through is done the tip of the cue on a bar box is about 3/4 of the way down the table. When doing this you want to make sure you are still stroking straight and you arent using some of the kinetic force you applied through your body kinisthetics to move the cue upwards.

Hope that helps. Even a weakling can develop a powerful enough break given the correct form and body control given enough practice.
 
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break speed

The science is E=MC^2. E is energy or in this case force. Which is what you r seeking, an increase in force. M is mass or in this case weight or cue weight. C is velocity or speed. In the formula the C or speed is squared or multiplied times itself. Therefore a slight increase in speed increases the force much more than a slight increase in mass or weight. I know you want to increase your speed. So we need to convert the equation to E divided by mass = C^2. Assuming you are doing everthing humanly possible with regard to technigue to maximize the force you can apply, the only other variable is mass or weight. Since the energy or force is constant so to speak, a reduction in weight should result in an increase in velocity or speed. In other words, try a lighter cue. You should be able to increase your cue speed with a lighter cue. The problem is not to go too light were the increase in speed is offset by the reduction in mass or weight. Experiment with it. It does not matter what someone else can do with your cue. It's about finding the cue that maximizes what you can due with it. Good luck! Sorry for long scientific explanantion but it is more credible than just saying 'try a lighter cue'.
 
ENGLISH! said:
The science is E=MC^2. E is energy or in this case force. Which is what you r seeking, an increase in force. M is mass or in this case weight or cue weight. C is velocity or speed. In the formula the C or speed is squared or multiplied times itself. Therefore a slight increase in speed increases the force much more than a slight increase in mass or weight. I know you want to increase your speed. So we need to convert the equation to E divided by mass = C^2. Assuming you are doing everthing humanly possible with regard to technigue to maximize the force you can apply, the only other variable is mass or weight. Since the energy or force is constant so to speak, a reduction in weight should result in an increase in velocity or speed. In other words, try a lighter cue. You should be able to increase your cue speed with a lighter cue. The problem is not to go too light were the increase in speed is offset by the reduction in mass or weight. Experiment with it. It does not matter what someone else can do with your cue. It's about finding the cue that maximizes what you can due with it. Good luck! Sorry for long scientific explanantion but it is more credible than just saying 'try a lighter cue'.
Click to expand...

Uh... no. This if the formula if you want to convert mass to pure energy. In this formula (and any other time you do physics), C the speed of light which is a constant.

Pool is Newtonian. You should be using F=ma.
 
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ENGLISH! said:
The science is E=MC^2. E is energy or in this case force. Which is what you r seeking, an increase in force. M is mass or in this case weight or cue weight. C is velocity or speed. In the formula the C or speed is squared or multiplied times itself. Therefore a slight increase in speed increases the force much more than a slight increase in mass or weight. I know you want to increase your speed. So we need to convert the equation to E divided by mass = C^2. Assuming you are doing everthing humanly possible with regard to technigue to maximize the force you can apply, the only other variable is mass or weight. Since the energy or force is constant so to speak, a reduction in weight should result in an increase in velocity or speed. In other words, try a lighter cue. You should be able to increase your cue speed with a lighter cue. The problem is not to go too light were the increase in speed is offset by the reduction in mass or weight. Experiment with it. It does not matter what someone else can do with your cue. It's about finding the cue that maximizes what you can due with it. Good luck! Sorry for long scientific explanantion but it is more credible than just saying 'try a lighter cue'.
Click to expand...

Um while your theory is partially correct that is the wrong equation.... That is the equation for, say, figuring out how much energy a pencil would equate to if it were changed to pure energy.

Force = Mass * Acceleration

That's the one you are looking for and that is what you are trying to explain.

As far as using a lighter stick you can do that if you feel the need but seeing as people in this thread are talking about how pros break using a twist in the torso I believe technique is the issue.
 
zpele said:
When breaking with power very little of the power should come from your arm. Starting from your legs each muscle should tense in order up through your core and propel your body towards the cueball. There is no way you can generate that kind of kinetic power using your arm alone.
Click to expand...
I think more breaking power is added by using a longer lever than just your forearm, and this is accomplished by standing up some during (or before) the stroke so that your arm has room to straighten out more. I think this standing up motion is mistaken as the main source of added power when the real main source is the straighter arm (and the involvement of the stronger shoulder/pectoral muscles).

Make sure you are hitting the object ball as full as possible. Each degree off of the center the cueball is on the object ball you lose power.
Click to expand...
Hitting the CB offcenter also wastes lots of power, even if you manage to hit the OB square. In fact, hitting the OB offcenter is often the result of hitting the CB offcenter, which means you're losing power on both ends.

pj
chgo
 
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JoeyA said:
Every single one of them could not beat me at ANY game but some of them hit 22-23 mph without flying off the table and they used, MY BREAK CUE. It was a sobering experience to say the least.
Click to expand...

Sorry if this is off-topic but this excerpt seems to imply that break speed isn't necessarily important. If you played "Evil Twin JoeyA" who exactly matched you in all aspects except break speed, would that determine the winner?

--matthew
 
krupa said:
Sorry if this is off-topic but this excerpt seems to imply that break speed isn't necessarily important. If you played "Evil Twin JoeyA" who exactly matched you in all aspects except break speed, would that determine the winner?

--matthew
Click to expand...
When I hear "break speed isn't important" I'm reminded how often it's the last ball rolling that finds a pocket.

I want to hit break shots accurately, but I've never heard of a downside to hitting them as hard as accurately possible.

pj
chgo
 
Not necessarily.*

krupa said:
Sorry if this is off-topic but this excerpt seems to imply that break speed isn't necessarily important. If you played "Evil Twin JoeyA" who exactly matched you in all aspects except break speed, would that determine the winner?

--matthew
Click to expand...

Break speed is good.
Doing all other things more consistently well, is even better. :)

*Making a ball on the break, controlling whitey and getting shape on the lowest numbered ball on the table is more important than break speed. (had to get that out of the way). But I get your drift.

I know about the longer lever thing Pat mentioned as Colin Colenso demonstrated that in his video but after thinking about it some more, I remember someone saying that I did not follow through very far. While some of the players end their stroke somewhere close to the middle of the table, mine is about 14" from the head string. Just now, I straightened my arm, simulating a break shot by my chair and think that is maybe why I don't follow through that far. To be fair though, a couple of the high speed breakers simply drop their elbow and don't seem to straighten their arm when breaking..... I'll work on it and see how it goes....

Good posts. Keep them coming... Good Discussion.
 
JoeyA:
...a couple of the high speed breakers simply drop their elbow and don't seem to straighten their arm when breaking...
Click to expand...
Part of the effect of straightening the arm is that it also involves the stronger shoulder/pectoral muscles. Raising/dropping the elbow can also do this (to a lesser degree).

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
When I hear "break speed isn't important" I'm reminded how often it's the last ball rolling that finds a pocket.

I want to hit break shots accurately, but I've never heard of a downside to hitting them as hard as accurately possible.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

I've seen tight pocketed tables reject hard hit/fast moving object balls on the break, while accepting softer/slower speed moving object balls.. but otherwise, I agree with you.
 
Joey i can reach up to 21 Mph breaking with pendulum stoke only... without any body movement.
Try to relax your arm and grip and use long follow :)
 
krupa said:
Uh... no. This if the formula if you want to convert mass to pure energy. In this formula (and any other time you do physics), C the speed of light which is a constant.

Pool is Newtonian. You should be using F=ma.
Click to expand...

You're technically correct, but more people are familiar with Einstien's E= MC^2.
 
peter_gunn said:
Joey i can reach up to 21 Mph breaking with pendulum stoke only... without any body movement.
Try to relax your arm and grip and use long follow :)
Click to expand...

Peter,
You have fast-twitch muscles. Those genes might be dormant in me but I will try anything. :grin:
 
Patrick Johnson said:
I think more breaking power is added by using a longer lever than just your forearm, and this is accomplished by standing up some during (or before) the stroke so that your arm has room to straighten out more. I think this standing up motion is mistaken as the main source of added power when the real main source is the straighter arm (and the involvement of the stronger shoulder/pectoral muscles).


Hitting the CB offcenter also wastes lots of power, even if you manage to hit the OB square. In fact, hitting the OB offcenter is often the result of hitting the CB offcenter, which means you're losing power on both ends.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

I agree. It is simular to golf & baseball. Also, I consider the wrist as a multiplier of that force. It is simular to a flail, a VERY OLD grass cutting implement. The longer bat should hit farther than a shorter one if both are hit on the 'sweet spot'. But can a small stature person swing a heavy 36" bat fast enough to accomplish that or would they be better off swinging say a lighter 30" or even a 28" bat? We're only talking about an ounce or two or somewhere in between when it comes to a break cue. But, like most anything the shoe has to fit the person. ALL other things being EQUAL, a change of cue weight, up or down, can & should make a difference. The question is in what direction to get the desired result. Just my 2 Cents.
 
Obviously controlling the cueball and getting shape on the lowest ball is important except when you don't make a ball on the break. If your break truly is bad or not working on a particular day and you can't consistently make a ball on the break then maybe you should try to not spread them out too much and to not leave a shot on the lowest ball ( the one ball in this case ). This is the only way to make sure you will get a decision at the table even if it is from a push out. I would rather face a push out than give my opponent an easy shot on the one.
 
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