John Schmidt's and Corey Deuel's comments on aiming systems

I didn't see this before making the same point myself. So we do agree on something... :)

And, by the way, I'm not at all opposed to CTE. I think it's a useful system. I'm just opposed to the way it's usually misrepresented (as being more or less "feel free").

pj
chgo

this has been discussed so many times in many threads gone by and directed at Pj mostly by me lol there are adjustments in the system (call them feel if you like Pj) After i make any adjustment, i still will be cte and edge to aim point on all cte shots. This is how i can make any shot in that diagram you posted in here.

experience will lead the eyes and the body will follow, i just thought that up driving :) it makes very good sense to me on how i see cte/pro1.

I know when the adjustment are made, how to make them,why you have to make them, and the types of shots that need adjustments.


I have given the answers so many times on here but the cte knowledge is very very low on AZ, believe it our not. I like a lot of what atlarge has to say about cte, for the record.
 
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Hi Buster45, After your nice comments, I think I will just take the rest of the day off. I sincerely appreciate your input. It truly does make my day.

Phil is absolutely one of the most talented players I have ever seen. Working with Phil was so easy. It seems as though the connections that were made were just what he wanted and needed during our time together.

His work with CTE PRO ONE not only helped his aiming consistency and confidence but he realized tremendous benefits in his routine. The locomotive slowed down a little and that became a big boost for his overall game.

Phil was fascinated with banking as he was used to playing safes instead of going for banks in many cases. So, with banking he added a weapon to his arsenal.

Phil had a strong desire to learn one-pocket and I did the best I could in that area. Phil has really rounded out his game.

As far as stroke goes, a video analysis early on revealed a left veering at finish.....Phil saw that and fixed that immediately.

I taught Phil 6/7 of the best kicking systems that I have ever seen and his already strong kicking just got stronger because of new objective references.

All in all it's not rocket science, I just was in the right place at the right time with an extremely talented player that was thirsty for knowledge. It just so happens that I was equipped with what he needed and wanted at that time.

Most importantly, Phil is a fine young man and that is the grandest thing of all about Phil Burford.

Stan Shuffett

Thanks Stan i meant every word. Got to pick him up from the airport in the morning so im looking forward to seeing him. Best wishes to you and your family:smile:
 
And mostly ignored. Get used to it.


And here's a good reason to be ignored. You make no sense.

pj
chgo

go in the other room where your pool table is and where your cte/pro1 failure took place and toss a ball on the table. now place your head above that ball and look directly down on it until you can see center cue ball and just think about it. you dont know when or how the adjustment is made :)

This feel you speak of in cte/pro1, tell me when it takes place and how it takes place? lets hear your answer <<<< i will be checking on this later tonight if you can think of an answer lol :grin::grin:

we all know i will just get an insult and/or i will be asked to answer my own question or he will answer with a question or he will ignore it totally lol routine :)
 
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Good thoughts, Dave, and I'm not talking about Lou and Pro1. Most of us are not, and never will be, really top-level players. What, really, do we have to lose by trying new (to us) things in pool?

AtLarge, you quoted Spider, whom I have on “ignore.” But just this once I will respond to what you quoted him saying, though I have no intention of getting into a discussion via proxy:

Tried it, gave it a fair shake, really and truly wanted it to work, but I couldn’t. IMO it is totally bogus.

The reasons I go two and out (though I did win a match at Tunica :-) is that I go to big tournaments like the DCC, Tunica, and The US Open One Pocket and, not too surprisingly, draw high speed or pro players like Darren Appleton, Chris Gentile, Danny Smith, and Warren Kiamco, just to mention my most recent tournament opponents. In the tournament before that I went 2-2 at the US Open drawing Raphael Martinez and Alex Pagulayan, defeating former roadie Richard Harris. I have finished in the cash at the DCC: 18-24th in 2000, 16-24th in 2001, and 20-35th in 2002, and somewhere in the top 50, after losing in the sixth round to Francisco Bustamonte, in 2009. (Who have you played lately? :-) I won the 14.1 World qualifier up in Chicago three years ago. I am usually not in a field of bangers -- by-and-large, the guys I end up losing to play more pool in a month than I do in a year. They face more competitive situations in a week than I do in a year; and they are regularly playing guys far, far above the speed of guys I get to play. I am supposed to lose to these kinds of player and only now and then out run the nuts and beat a big name. After playing guys like that and competing against guys in my own weight class, or slightly above, I do very well thank you.

And, you would be making a huge mistake if you think I’m not always trying to improve. I am *always* working on something new.

Lou Figueroa
 
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How does CTE help you “synch your visual and physical alignment”?! (Or are you on your own for that part?)

Every shot has a center to edge line that is the correct one for that shot. Could be the right or the left edge of the object ball but one of those two sides is the right one to use. That line can only be seen properly from one position around the table. Not two inches to the right of it, not two inches to the left of it but in just one spot. So when you find that one spot you are then standing in a line that is not only easy to see but is fixed. This is the base line to get it all started on the way to getting down on the shot. As Mr. Shuffet says the eyes lead and the body follows. Thus the result of using the CTE line allows the eyes to be oriented to a fixed and unmoving line that is the same regardless of the shot being addressed.

You can walk around the table and walk around the shot but you can only find the CTE line at one point. When you see it that is the place you align your body to and complete the rest of the steps to get down on the shot. To me this is how CTE helps to align my visual input and my physical alignment.

Contrast that with Ghost Ball, where I have to pick a spot on the cloth, or a contact "point" on the ball and align to that. The same thing applies, I see where I want to go and I pick a line and orient my body to it. Only with GB there are several positions which may or may not be right. Still, I have to choose one and stick with it to get down on the ball. With CTE I know that I am choosing the only line that exists for that shot with no guessing.


You're correct: CTE may work for you, but not necessarily for the next guy. Part of the problem, as anyone who has ever been a semi-serious photographer can tell you, is that very small variations in camera placement can dramatically change perspective and the final scene in the viewfinder. Same for pool.

Well the only way for the next guy to find out would be to try it. If I understand your participation in these discussions your main objective seems to be to prevent others from trying CTE because it does not work for you. You consider it to be bogus and of no value to anyone. If I am wrong about your stance please correct me.


It’s not a matter of the task being “fairly limited.” At pool, within that universe of “fairly limited” is a world or highly fractionated variations that constitute the difference between a tyro and a world champion.

And by reducing the variables, i.e. by the use of a constant line as in CTE, the task becomes somewhat easier to repeat. In pool the word consistency is used a lot with good reason. Here you have a method which is incredibly consistent in the application which should lead to consistency in approach, as if in fact does, and yet you continue to object to it? Why?

Yes, go on YouTube and freeze the frame of all the players down on a shot in their starting positions. They all will look relatively similar. But because of what happens in that “fairly limited” zone of operation, what will happen next when they pull the trigger can be dramatically different. Our game is one of very small increments, different setups, and very great skill that "the system" cannot account for nor provide.

Lou Figueroa

And with the magic of YouTube you can allow the video to progress and study the results. You can rewind to to study the approach to the table, the act of getting down on the shot and the resulting shooting action. In the recent match between Landon Shuffett and Earl Strickland Mr. Shuffett misses a ten ball late in the match. By analyzing the video we can clearly see that Mr. Shuffett lined up on the shot correctly but that he made a significant physical error while stroking that made the cue ball throw off the shot line. Upon review of Mr. Shuffett's other shots this stroke error is not present.

We simply disagree. Mr. Houle and Mr. Shuffet have shown us that in fact there is a systematic approach to finding the shot line that works extremely well. We have shot making tests where only the system users have posted high scores. We have more and more professionals adopting systematic approaches to aiming and those professionals are getting results out of it. Times are changing. Just as the techniques in most sports evolve pool is no exception.

In every major sport the actual physiology of the sport gets studied intensely. By breaking down the motions into the distinct components we can then undertand what's really happening vs. what we think is happening. Then with this new understanding of the actual motion techniques are developed to help the athlete be more efficient and consistent. This is the single biggest reason why performance across the board in all sports has risen immensely over the past 100 years.

I understand the romantic side of pool. When men were men and we simply battled it out by grinding on the pool table. To get good you had to earn your stripes by shooting a milliion balls and getting pounded on by better players. I put in a lot of time on the road doing just that. And it has merit. And was a hell of a lot of fun. But it's not the only way to play this game. At the end of the day this isn't art it's a job. Now the best of the best make it look like art and play the balls like a violinist fiddles. But it's a task-oriented game where the shooter has to face the shot, make it and move on to the next one. ANYTHING that helps them to do this more consistently is helpful, especially if it's really good.

My apologies but if the sum total of your opposition to CTE is that all players are different and there is no one-size-fits-all solution then I have to say that this is a weak argument. What you ought to be saying is that every player should try it and see for themselves. The difference between us sir is that if you had developed a technique for playing pool that you though was worth sharing I would try it and more importantly I would NOT try to stop others from trying it.

In truth all players are far more similar than they are different. The reason for this is because the task of pocketing balls forces them to be.
 
By Chump's own admission, he barely even plays: "im really not a serious player at all and i have only played pool once or twice this summer." So it's amazing that's he's trying to pretend to be an authority on CTE.

PJ is right: Chump is the one poster who should be the most ignored.

lol ... :) theChump has to go play baseball now and will catch you later. lol
 
Thanks Stan i meant every word. Got to pick him up from the airport in the morning so im looking forward to seeing him. Best wishes to you and your family:smile:

This might sound silly and a little petty but us pool fans would thoroughly enjoy it if your son would take some time out to give us his thoughts on how the aiming method he learned from Stan has factored into his game. We enjoy watching him play and he is certainly at world class level now.

We need to hear from players of this caliber in their own words why they feel CTE works for them. I don't say this just to lend credibility to Mr. Shuffett or any of the people teaching aiming systems. I say it because Mr. Burford is one of the few players who belongs to the next generation of young stars who has had intense instruction in these relatively new methods of aiming. So hearing from him in a more detailed explanation would be very interesting for us fans.

Perhaps you could show him this message and let him consider it?

And thank you for chiming in, we appreciate it.
 
pj,

By Chump's own admission, he barely even plays: "im really not a serious player at all and i have only played pool once or twice this summer." So it's amazing that's he's trying to pretend to be an authority on CTE.

PJ is right: Chump is the one poster who should be the most ignored.

Sir, is the ridicule neccesary? Champ is an authority on CTE/Pro One at this point. You don't have to be a serious player to study a method. The man does in fact know what he is talking about when it comes to this subject. Unfortunately he also has contributed to the cycle by countering hatred and ridicule with zealotry in the past.

Is your ridicule and name calling really doing any good here?
 
i can tell you i know enough about cte/pro1 that i can actually teach it, if i want, :) I also hold back info on here because i respect Stan and don't want to put his entire system on AZ billiards.
 
i can tell you i know enough about cte/pro1 that i can actually teach it, if i want, :) I also hold back info on here because i respect Stan and don't want to put his entire system on AZ billiards.

Sure there are many 400 ball runners who banged on about CTE.:boring2:
 
I thought the pre show was great...lmao.

Systems are systems,another way of thinking,seeing,to each their own.

I also thought they made fun of those here on AZ that debate systems..

Also liked the thousand excuses given for poor play..

In the end,you'll just have to take it to the table...If you're coming out on top most of the time,then you just might have something.

I don't use cte,but I'm not against it either.I aim the way I aim...quater,half,three quaters..then I use inside,outside,high right,high left..same with the bottom of the ball..

This has been a good thread.
Enjoy the rest of the week.
 
Every shot has a center to edge line that is the correct one for that shot. Could be the right or the left edge of the object ball but one of those two sides is the right one to use. That line can only be seen properly from one position around the table. Not two inches to the right of it, not two inches to the left of it but in just one spot. So when you find that one spot you are then standing in a line that is not only easy to see but is fixed. This is the base line to get it all started on the way to getting down on the shot. As Mr. Shuffet says the eyes lead and the body follows. Thus the result of using the CTE line allows the eyes to be oriented to a fixed and unmoving line that is the same regardless of the shot being addressed.

You can walk around the table and walk around the shot but you can only find the CTE line at one point. When you see it that is the place you align your body to and complete the rest of the steps to get down on the shot. To me this is how CTE helps to align my visual input and my physical alignment.

Contrast that with Ghost Ball, where I have to pick a spot on the cloth, or a contact "point" on the ball and align to that. The same thing applies, I see where I want to go and I pick a line and orient my body to it. Only with GB there are several positions which may or may not be right. Still, I have to choose one and stick with it to get down on the ball. With CTE I know that I am choosing the only line that exists for that shot with no guessing.




Well the only way for the next guy to find out would be to try it. If I understand your participation in these discussions your main objective seems to be to prevent others from trying CTE because it does not work for you. You consider it to be bogus and of no value to anyone. If I am wrong about your stance please correct me.




And by reducing the variables, i.e. by the use of a constant line as in CTE, the task becomes somewhat easier to repeat. In pool the word consistency is used a lot with good reason. Here you have a method which is incredibly consistent in the application which should lead to consistency in approach, as if in fact does, and yet you continue to object to it? Why?



And with the magic of YouTube you can allow the video to progress and study the results. You can rewind to to study the approach to the table, the act of getting down on the shot and the resulting shooting action. In the recent match between Landon Shuffett and Earl Strickland Mr. Shuffett misses a ten ball late in the match. By analyzing the video we can clearly see that Mr. Shuffett lined up on the shot correctly but that he made a significant physical error while stroking that made the cue ball throw off the shot line. Upon review of Mr. Shuffett's other shots this stroke error is not present.

We simply disagree. Mr. Houle and Mr. Shuffet have shown us that in fact there is a systematic approach to finding the shot line that works extremely well. We have shot making tests where only the system users have posted high scores. We have more and more professionals adopting systematic approaches to aiming and those professionals are getting results out of it. Times are changing. Just as the techniques in most sports evolve pool is no exception.

In every major sport the actual physiology of the sport gets studied intensely. By breaking down the motions into the distinct components we can then undertand what's really happening vs. what we think is happening. Then with this new understanding of the actual motion techniques are developed to help the athlete be more efficient and consistent. This is the single biggest reason why performance across the board in all sports has risen immensely over the past 100 years.

I understand the romantic side of pool. When men were men and we simply battled it out by grinding on the pool table. To get good you had to earn your stripes by shooting a milliion balls and getting pounded on by better players. I put in a lot of time on the road doing just that. And it has merit. And was a hell of a lot of fun. But it's not the only way to play this game. At the end of the day this isn't art it's a job. Now the best of the best make it look like art and play the balls like a violinist fiddles. But it's a task-oriented game where the shooter has to face the shot, make it and move on to the next one. ANYTHING that helps them to do this more consistently is helpful, especially if it's really good.

My apologies but if the sum total of your opposition to CTE is that all players are different and there is no one-size-fits-all solution then I have to say that this is a weak argument. What you ought to be saying is that every player should try it and see for themselves. The difference between us sir is that if you had developed a technique for playing pool that you though was worth sharing I would try it and more importantly I would NOT try to stop others from trying it.

In truth all players are far more similar than they are different. The reason for this is because the task of pocketing balls forces them to be.


Thanks for the tutorial but it doesn’t change the fact that different players, because of different setups, end up viewing the same shot differently. As to my “objective,” I’m here to talk about pool. Same as any other topic that interests me.

Consistency is great and that's why some folks, who were not previously consistent in their setup find some relief in the system. But as to the rest, if you need more info on why I think it’s bogus, go look up my review of the DVD.

As to what happened to Earl -- on one shot -- Earl is human, not a machine. When Landon is Earl’s age and has gone through the wars Earl has (and accomplished what Earl has), then those of us who are still around can see if he hasn’t developed a hitch or three in his stroke.

And while you may think the “times are changing," John and Corey’s comments would indicate otherwise. (BTW, I am aware motion in sport is being studied more and more, but I would remind you that CTE is an alignment system, not a delivery system ;-)

Lastly, I do not pretend to have the power to stop anyone from trying anything. (I think Stan has said he's moved a 1000 unit's at $39.00 plus shipping. After production costs, a tidy profit.) I can only offer my opinion. If people want to waste their time and money it's going to happen regardless of what I say.

Lou Figueroa
 
Thanks for the tutorial but it doesn’t change the fact that different players, because of different setups, end up viewing the same shot differently. As to my “objective,” I’m here to talk about pool. Same as any other topic that interests me.

Consistency is great and that's why some folks, who were not previously consistent in their setup find some relief in the system. But as to the rest, if you need more info on why I think it’s bogus, go look up my review of the DVD.

As to what happened to Earl -- on one shot -- Earl is human, not a machine. When Landon is Earl’s age and has gone through the wars Earl has (and accomplished what Earl has), then those of us who are still around can see if he hasn’t developed a hitch or three in his stroke.

And while you may think the “times are changing," John and Corey’s comments would indicate otherwise. (BTW, I am aware motion in sport is being studied more and more, but I would remind you that CTE is an alignment system, not a delivery system ;-)

Lastly, I do not pretend to have the power to stop anyone from trying anything. (I think Stan has said he's moved a 1000 unit's at $39.00 plus shipping. After production costs, a tidy profit.) I can only offer my opinion. If people want to waste their time and money it's going to happen regardless of what I say.

Lou Figueroa

Actually I was referring to Landon's shot, not Mr. Stricklands.

Mr. Duell made no such comment deriding aiming systems so you might want to take him off your list of pros who you think support your point of view. Mr. Schmidt knows nothing of the CTE system and was generally ranting. I forsee a time when Mr. Schmidt and Mr. Shuffett get together and then we will see if Mr. Schmidt contines to hold the same opinion.

I did read your review. It read like a biased review full of prejudice. I would bet that an hour with Stan Shuffett would change your mind but I am fairly certain that you wouldn't take that hour even if offered free of charge. In any event you are entitled to your opinion certainly.

And perhaps you are right that you don't have the power to influence anyone's buying decision. But that didn't stop you from trying and is not stopping you from trying now. However the positive reviews far outweigh the negatives and ultimately that is what has led to Mr. Shuffett selling more than 1000 DVDs.

If I remember correctly you said something to the effect that if Willie Mosconi himself told you that CTE was a good method you would tell Mr. Mosconi that he is wrong. So if true then what we have is the proverbial irresistible force meeting the unmovable object when it comes to your opinion of CTE. That's fine because every time you elect to spend your time deriding the system and the teachers and the students of it you only provide a stage for the other side to testify again with more proof, more positive testimony, more videos and more professionals results. You can hold the opinion that players are all so different that there is not any method that can be generically adopted and science will prove you wrong.

There is a finite space in which to view and address the shot. No matter who you are the cue must ultimately lay down on the shot line. And no matter who you are your body can only be holding that cue in a finite number of ways in order to stroke it properly. Thus form follows function here for any player who can consistently pocket balls whether you choose to believe that or not.
 
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