John Schmidt's and Corey Deuel's comments on aiming systems

[Roadie]

No doubt some people's views do get changed but for the most part, the observation that arguing over aiming systems is like arguing over politics or religion still holds true.

As a example, almost nothing you say will cause pj to change his mind and vice versa...so why not just amicably agree to disagree and move on?

Because we are amicably having a discussion about our differing perspectives. Is there a time limit? A post limit? A bandwidth issue? If there is then please make me aware of it and I will adhere to the rules of the discussion. If not then there is no reason that a debate cannot go on forever. If you are tired or bored then you can certainly elect to stop reading.

And it's not Mr. Johnson's mind that I am trying to change. Mr. Johnson is merely one of a handful of vocal representatives who are in opposition to the CTE method of aiming, to a greater and lesser degrees. He is simply the platform to allow the proponents of the CTE method to make their case and allow the readers to choose whether they want to try CTE or not.

All of this is done for the audience, not for the speakers. Although I will say that I am certainly willing to change my mind. When someone presents something to me I consider the evidence make up my own mind about it. Sometimes I am right and sometimes I am wrong. That is I think a big part of being a human.

 

[PoolSharkAllen]

Sorry I have to ask, you started this thread, what made you think the end results would be anything different?

Isn't that the definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and expecting different results?

There is a certain insanity over how these aiming systems wars have gone on for the past 10 years. Please pardon the interruption. :wink:

 

[champ2107]

roadie is a very strong debater, very impressive posts! Roadie just remember the eyes lead and the body follows in cte/pro1.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

No doubt some people's views do get changed but for the most part, the observation that arguing over aiming systems is like arguing over politics or religion still holds true.

As a example, almost nothing you say will cause pj to change his mind and vice versa...so why not just amicably agree to disagree and move on?

It isn't about changing the minds of long time AzB posters. It's about new readers here to learn about pool who may only hear one side of the issue.

Your (or my) boredom with the same old questions and answers is a minor thing.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Because we are amicably having a discussion about our differing perspectives. Is there a time limit? A post limit? A bandwidth issue? If there is then please make me aware of it and I will adhere to the rules of the discussion. If not then there is no reason that a debate cannot go on forever. If you are tired or bored then you can certainly elect to stop reading.

And it's not Mr. Johnson's mind that I am trying to change. Mr. Johnson is merely one of a handful of vocal representatives who are in opposition to the CTE method of aiming, to a greater and lesser degrees. He is simply the platform to allow the proponents of the CTE method to make their case and allow the readers to choose whether they want to try CTE or not.

All of this is done for the audience, not for the speakers. Although I will say that I am certainly willing to change my mind. When someone presents something to me I consider the evidence make up my own mind about it. Sometimes I am right and sometimes I am wrong. That is I think a big part of being a human.

I didn't see this before making the same point myself. So we do agree on something...

And, by the way, I'm not at all opposed to CTE. I think it's a useful system. I'm just opposed to the way it's usually misrepresented (as being more or less "feel free").

pj
chgo

 

[lfigueroa]

What happens is that if you lay your cue down on the correct shot line and have proper execution you will make the shot. Of course you have to synch your visual and physical alignment so that you can do this consistently. For me CTE works to bring all this into focus. For you it might be something else.

The only reality that every player has is that the balls don't move and the playing field is static. No matter who you are you have the same task and the ways to perform that task are farily limited. You absolutely cannot be outside of a very narrow range of space and make the shot consistently. It's impossible. So regardless of how differently you think each player in the world approaches a shot the reality is that there are way more similiarities than differences.

For proof you can simply go to YouTube and watch thousands of videos of players from C-level to pro-level. Study their approaches and make notes of all the different ways you find to get into the shot.

How does CTE help you “synch your visual and physical alignment”?! (Or are you on your own for that part?)

You're correct: CTE may work for you, but not necessarily for the next guy. Part of the problem, as anyone who has ever been a semi-serious photographer can tell you, is that very small variations in camera placement can dramatically change perspective and the final scene in the viewfinder. Same for pool.

It’s not a matter of the task being “fairly limited.” At pool, within that universe of “fairly limited” is a world or highly fractionated variations that constitute the difference between a tyro and a world champion. Yes, go on YouTube and freeze the frame of all the players down on a shot in their starting positions. They all will look relatively similar. But because of what happens in that “fairly limited” zone of operation, what will happen next when they pull the trigger can be dramatically different. Our game is one of very small increments, different setups, and very great skill that "the system" cannot account for nor provide.

Lou Figueroa

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Here's what I don't get, Lou-- It's clear you're into pool and travel around to the big events, etc. Your last big event didn't go well and your last 14.1 stream wasn't the best (although we all know you play that game well).

My point is -- you're probably not content with your performance and you're probably doing the same things to improve as you have been for the last 40 years.

My question is: why wouldn't you take a time out and experiment thoroughly with Pro1 and give it a legit fair shake to see if it clicks you up a notch. Someone of your speed -- a small click can be a big deal, if for no other reason to improve your consistency a few % points. You're actually the perfect candidate for this stuff. What do you have to lose? If you go 2 and out in your next tournament, you did that anyways doing it your old way too.

The reason why say that is I try to improve all the time and I try everything with a very open mind and give everything a legit, fair shot. Let go of your preconceived notions on things like this and your next trip report can be a happy one.

 

[bender_lu]

i just know the system of a good friend to me;

"Stop playing ****ing pool and RUN OUT you idiot" :grin: works very well for him

 

[Ratta]

Unfortunatley i am not at my computer right now-- Wish i could post CJ-Wileys article/text about *perception*.

If some of the guys would read it carefully, the one or the other guy would for sure be a bit more open minded- and not so *metal-headed*.
And i am talking her about both sides in this laughable cyberwar.

"open minded" <------often used, often just a nice word.

 

[The Saw]

Unfortunatley i am not at my computer right now-- Wish i could post CJ-Wileys article/text about *perception*.

If some of the guys would read it carefully, the one or the other guy would for sure be a bit more open minded- and not so *metal-headed*.
And i am talking her about both sides in this laughable cyberwar.

"open minded" <------often used, often just a nice word.

Ratta,

I was thinking the same thing while I was browsing on my phone. Now that I'm back in my office, here it is....

The below quote is from CJ's Facebook page. Landon Shuffet, Phil Burford, Stevie Moore, and now CJ is in the Pro One camp. Its true, The Gospel of Stan "THE MAN" Shuffett works!!! And a big shout out to my old buddy Hal Houle.....

"Stan Shuffett , I appreciate the time we spent together at the Southen Classic and I am impressed with the amount of thought and research you've put in to your systems....I found several of your philosophies useful and it has created a chain reaction in remembering movements I used to do (when competing full time) without any conscious thought ...your understanding of the dominant eye's perception in getting in line with the shot is unparalleled {imho}....we certainly agree that the geometry and physics of pocket billiards ARE PERFECT, it's a matter of unlocking that perfection that appeals to both of us...it may be more of a Journey than a Destination, but you, my friend are on the right path....I look forward to comparing notes again in the near future....best regards in teaching the hidden perfection of pool;-)"

 

[LAMas]

Unfortunatley i am not at my computer right now-- Wish i could post CJ-Wileys article/text about *perception*.

If some of the guys would read it carefully, the one or the other guy would for sure be a bit more open minded- and not so *metal-headed*.
And i am talking her about both sides in this laughable cyberwar.

"open minded" <------often used, often just a nice word.

Cj Wiley · 928 subscribers
January 31 at 8:39pm near Dallas, TX · ..Someone ask me "why can I play like a pro for a few hours, then have mental lapses and start making mistakes?" My answer surprised him...I said "the problem is all in your perception of the cue ball, because it's always changing....we can make the cue ball look smaller by standing further away, or make it look larger by standing closer... we want to be the same distance to give us the "illusion" that the distance is the same...once we have established our distance now we are able to do something that is REALLY IMPORTANT.....we can see the distance relationship between the cue ball and the object ball, and the lower our eyes, the closer the two balls will appear...the higher our eyes the farther the object ball will appear.....the key is to find the distance relationship YOU PREFER and try to make EVERY shot fit this perception.....so, as a rule the closer the cue ball is to the object ball the higher you stand...as the distance increases you're eyes should lower to create the same visual "illusion". And creating this illusion consciously makes all the shots appear to be the same....this leads to uncanny consistency ;-)


http://www.facebook.com/CJ.WILEY7/posts/369710746388301

 

[AtLarge]

... The below quote is from CJ's Facebook page. Landon Shuffet, Phil Burford, Stevie Moore, and now CJ is in the Pro One camp. ...

What you quoted by CJ from Facebook was already posted in this thread (Post #98). But I'm not necessarily interpreting this, or what I heard CJ say during match commentary at Tunica, to mean that he is completely converting from his "Ultimate Aiming System" to Pro1. It may be that he is using what he is learning from Stan to tweak his own method(s) a bit. I don't really know; we'll see.

 

[buster45]

Hi all, this is my first post on az. Im phil burfords dad and feel compelled to join this debate. I dont know much about aiming systems and i have never met stan although i have spoken to him on the phone. stan met Phil in Nicaragua at the world juniors and invited him to stay at his house for some coaching, what i do know for certain is Stan has greatly improved Phils game and Phil has the utmost respect for him and indeed his entire family. Stan has coached him for free and all of us here in the uk who watch phil play have seen the results. Phil was always a talented junior but Stan has really helped him make the transition to the pro ranks and i know that Phil will always be grateful for the fantastic help Stan has given him , as will I. Best wishes to you all in the states :smile:

 

[AtLarge]

... what i do know for certain is Stan has greatly improved Phils game ...

And thank you for joining in! I think we pool fans will be watching your son play at the top level for decades to come.

 

[buster45]

And thank you for joining in! I think we pool fans will be watching your son play at the top level for decades to come.

Thank you , I know he loves his time in the USA. German Eurotour next week !!

 

[AtLarge]

... My question is: why wouldn't you take a time out and experiment thoroughly with Pro1 and give it a legit fair shake to see if it clicks you up a notch. Someone of your speed -- a small click can be a big deal, if for no other reason to improve your consistency a few % points. You're actually the perfect candidate for this stuff. What do you have to lose? If you go 2 and out in your next tournament, you did that anyways doing it your old way too.

The reason why say that is I try to improve all the time and I try everything with a very open mind and give everything a legit, fair shot. Let go of your preconceived notions on things like this and your next trip report can be a happy one.

Good thoughts, Dave, and I'm not talking about Lou and Pro1. Most of us are not, and never will be, really top-level players. What, really, do we have to lose by trying new (to us) things in pool?

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Good thoughts, Dave, and I'm not talking about Lou and Pro1. Most of us are not, and never will be, really top-level players. What, really, do we have to lose by trying new (to us) things in pool?

When I first learned CTE from Hal many, many years ago, it was SOOOOO alien to me as far as approaching a shot that my overall speed went down a good bit for quite a while. I'd miss one shot by a mile and then another shot would go in the geometric center of the pocket--- so I knew there was something to it -- so I kept plugging. I'm not shy to admit I had problems with consistency, so I thought why not-- nothing to lose anyways.

Most people who experience a setback in speed while learning something new never grind it out--- they immediately revert back to their baseline due to fear and frustration. There is a promised land, however, for those who take the time and grind through the initial "body shock" of learning something new. I'm glad I did.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Hi all, this is my first post on az. Im phil burfords dad and feel compelled to join this debate. I dont know much about aiming systems and i have never met stan although i have spoken to him on the phone. stan met Phil in Nicaragua at the world juniors and invited him to stay at his house for some coaching, what i do know for certain is Stan has greatly improved Phils game and Phil has the utmost respect for him and indeed his entire family. Stan has coached him for free and all of us here in the uk who watch phil play have seen the results. Phil was always a talented junior but Stan has really helped him make the transition to the pro ranks and i know that Phil will always be grateful for the fantastic help Stan has given him , as will I. Best wishes to you all in the states :smile:

Great to have you join us. Phil is a true talent. You must be a very, very proud father.

 

[buster45]

Great to have you join us. Phil is a true talent. You must be a very, very proud father.

Just a bit lol :smile:

 

[stan shuffett]

Hi all, this is my first post on az. Im phil burfords dad and feel compelled to join this debate. I dont know much about aiming systems and i have never met stan although i have spoken to him on the phone. stan met Phil in Nicaragua at the world juniors and invited him to stay at his house for some coaching, what i do know for certain is Stan has greatly improved Phils game and Phil has the utmost respect for him and indeed his entire family. Stan has coached him for free and all of us here in the uk who watch phil play have seen the results. Phil was always a talented junior but Stan has really helped him make the transition to the pro ranks and i know that Phil will always be grateful for the fantastic help Stan has given him , as will I. Best wishes to you all in the states :smile:

Hi Buster45, After your nice comments, I think I will just take the rest of the day off. I sincerely appreciate your input. It truly does make my day.

Phil is absolutely one of the most talented players I have ever seen. Working with Phil was so easy. It seems as though the connections that were made were just what he wanted and needed during our time together.

His work with CTE PRO ONE not only helped his aiming consistency and confidence but he realized tremendous benefits in his routine. The locomotive slowed down a little and that became a big boost for his overall game.

Phil was fascinated with banking as he was used to playing safes instead of going for banks in many cases. So, with banking he added a weapon to his arsenal.

Phil had a strong desire to learn one-pocket and I did the best I could in that area. Phil has really rounded out his game.

As far as stroke goes, a video analysis early on revealed a left veering at finish.....Phil saw that and fixed that immediately.

I taught Phil 6/7 of the best kicking systems that I have ever seen and his already strong kicking just got stronger because of new objective references.

All in all it's not rocket science, I just was in the right place at the right time with an extremely talented player that was thirsty for knowledge. It just so happens that I was equipped with what he needed and wanted at that time.

Most importantly, Phil is a fine young man and that is the grandest thing of all about Phil Burford.

Stan Shuffett